avecReynolds531

Hello,

I'm trying to find out what gauges Accles and Pollock Kromo tubes were drawn to, and struggling to find any information. I have a 22" 1950s frameset that is weighing as 4.13 pounds for the painted frame, and 1.53 pounds for the painted fork. The tubing is not known.

Some Kromo frame owners have recorded frame weights lower than 531 and other steel frames of the time.

Also, what was the distinction between Kromo and Kromo SAQ? I've seen a fork steerer stamping with AQ interpreted as 'A 'class quality - would SAQ be related to this?

All responses and advice appreciated.

Thanks

crumbling

I see your frame is dated around 1950. I have a frame that has no makers name but he was in New Zealand. The frame has the A&P logo A quality stamped on the steerer tube along with a number 36 adjacent and also a number 36 on the BB along with a 16. A&P logo appears elsewhere as well. I have seen another frame in New Zealand that has a 11 stamped on the steerer tube but no number on the BB can be seen. The frame is identified by features as one made by Speedy Cycles that operated in Christchurch from pre 1900 to around 1950. The seat tube number of 1946 places the frame as a Speedy of c1914. Thus I consider my frame could be a 1916 made cycle. The frame weighs 5lb and the forks 1lb9oz. The frame tubing is the butted type with a constant wall thickness (not thinning at the centres) on all tubes.
I am interested to know the A&P number stamped on the steerer tube and possibly the BB on your frame.
This is a small list of frames numbers presumed to mean the frame set number?A&P set number Maker Maker SN year Owner reference on steerer tube and BB

11 B quality Speedy cycles 1946 1914 A NZ

36 A quality ? Christchurch NZ 16? 1916? Les NZ

Z12219 S Sport Speedwell Australia A57584 Jan 1939 on the BB Flying dragon

95112 A quality ? UK ? 1950? ?

The more of these numbers the better the identification of the years involved.

Regards
crumbling

T-Mar

The seat post diameter should allow you to determine the gauge of the of the non-butted portions of the main tubes.

T-Mar

A cycling oxymoron if ever I heard one.

crumbling

T-Mar
This is not an oxymoron butt my understanding of butted tubing and its origin and inventor.

I have seen although Butted tubing existed from 1840 being tubing fabricated from flat sheet for gas supply to lighting of London streets as panted by Comenius Whitehouse who invented a better method for making metal tubes. This process, called the butt-weld process is the basis for our current pipe-making procedures. In his method, thin sheets of iron were cut to strips, heated and drawn through a cone-shaped opening. As the metal went through the opening, its edges curled up and created a pipe shape. The two edges were welded together to finish the pipe. This is the origin of Butted tubing in 1825.

Refer to Pipeline Equities - A Brief History of Steel Pipe

The Patent Butted Tube Company patent document in 1897 No 24931 states “The invention consists of improvements to seamless steel and other tubes” and does not claim inventing Butted tubing. Further “our object being readily produce such tubes with varying distribution of metal or with ends or other required parts of greater thickness than the body of the tubes.”



Further to this I have seen images of Accles amd Pollack in 1905 advertising their Best Butted Tubes

I have seen your statement that Accles and Pollack did not exist until mid 1900s but in fact established around 1900 specifically to make steel tubing for all types of use not cycling. The built the first steel tube aircraft , the Mayfly of John Seddon design that was not a huge success, watch at 8.42 minutes for the Mayfly portion of . This shows what may have been A&P tube manufacturing. I have seen their advertised racing 1922 model frame sets.

My wish is to establish some credible evidence so I can date the frame I have.

crumbling

crumbling

crumbling

T-Mar

You're confusing butt welded tubes with butted tubes. When a bicycle tubing manufacturer states that tubes are butted, it is referring to tubes that are thicker at the end(s), than in the mid-section. The basic concept is that the tubes are thicker at the ends, where stress is greater, but thinner in the middle, to save weight. Plain gauge tubing is a constant gauge/thickness along it's entire length. Consequently you can't have bicycle tubes that are ," the butted type with a constant wall thickness". In cycling, to avoid confusion between butt welded tubes and butted tubes, the former are generally called seamed tubes.

I'm well aware that A&P goes back to the very early 20th century. If you look at my other posts you'll see my mention of their butted CrMo tubesets in the early 1930s and that CCM was using A&P as early as 1911. So, if I made such a statement, it is in error. Please direct me to the statement so that I may correct it.

crumbling

T-Mar
This discussion could be considered correct either way, yes the Whitehouse was called Butt-weld and The Patent Butted Tubing Company patent document in 1897 No 24931 states “The invention consists of improvements to seamless steel and other tubes” and does not claim inventing Butted tubing nor is Butted Tubing stated in that Patent document as it probably would not have been allowed at the time as another Patent was already in force. Thus Reynolds claim to inventing is only for the process of improvements to seamless steel and other tubes, surely a less confusing, original name could been applied.
My original statement of "The frame tubing is the butted type with a constant wall thickness (not thinning at the centres) on all tubes." This is a correct as it is clarifies the original request by evacReynolds531 to find "gauges Accles and Pollock Kromo tubes were drawn to.

" Butting" by Reynolds meaning is the "improvements to seamless steel and other tubes” ie wall thickness. A&P do state they use the Butted tubing in at least 1905 from what I have seen. Maybe Reynolds Patent had expired or A&P paid a royalty to use it or Reynolds did not have a claim to the "Butted" naming.


This is the origin of what is confusing to you.
crumbling

Nessism

I don't have anything to add regarding Accles and Pollock bike tubing, what I do know is that they also made golf club shafts. Arnold Palmer's club company used them as their stock offering on some models which is where I became familiar with them. High quality shafts which later were sold under the "Apollo" brand. Good stuff.

T-Mar

The "improvements to seamless tubes and other tubes" covered by patent are the methods of manufacturing tubing with variations in wall thickness. The document specifically mentions cycle tubing as an intended application and uses the term "butted" to describe the thickened ends.



As a result of the granting of this patent, a new company, The Patent Butted Tubes Co. Ltd. was incorporated. The patent, in conjunction with the name of the company and its prime product, established the definition of butted in the lexicon of the bicycle industry (i.e. a butted tube is a tube with one or two thicker ends).

Accles and Pollock subscribed to the same definition. This is why their advertisements for butted showed a partially cut away tube. Look closely at the 1905 advertisement and you'll see that the tube has a thicker wall at the ends, starting above the 'A' and 'K' in the company name.

This definition is used by all bicycling tubing manufacturers. In the bicycle tubing industry you can't have butted tubing of constant thickness. It is an oxymoron.



"Gauges" refers to a set of standardized dimensional wall thicknesses to which tubes was manufactured. To answer the OP's question, you need to specify a gauge number or imperial or metric dimension. For instance the attached A&P advertisement mentions that their (thinner) 22 gauge tubing is lighter and stronger that the (thicker) 20 gauge tubing used by a competitor. Using gauge numbers to describe bicycle tubing wall thickness was common practice in countries using imperial measurements, up until around the time of the early 1970s bicycle boom.


There's no confusion of my part. I know what butted tubes means in the cycling lexicon. I started working in the bicycle industry 5 decades ago and was employed in or operated on the fringe of the industry for 4 decades.

superlenton

Can anyone tell me what seat pin fits Kromo SAQ? I know I can measure the internal diameter of the seat tube, but that does not necessarily tell me what the frame tubing is. My frame is 26.8 mm . This indicates 531 plain gauge, but the frame minus forks weighs only 1.8kg, so I'm wondering if it could be Kromo.