How fast do I need to be to think about racing?
07-17-18, 04:26 PM
#26
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Have you thought about joining a club? Ask at your bike shop if there is one. I joined a club (many years ago but it is still around) and entered their "C" race for my first ever.
The best part of belonging to a club is having racers with experience sharing their knowledge with you and observing you and seeing what you need to address next. They will also know far more about what races will be best for you.
Racing is one of the hardest things you can do. It also has the highest highs. But it is also a fascinating mix of skills, training, will-power and smarts. Doing it all on your own will be very overwhelming. With the right people around you, it is much more manageable, less stressful and more fun.
Edit: I missed that you were already thinking about a club in your post, +1 Another point; on of the most fascinating aspects of bike racing is our different body types. To do well, we need to best use the body we were given. That means selecting the race type as much as we can and once in a race, tailoring our effort to best use our body type to maximize our result. Here again, others with experience can be a huge benefit. I could have wasted a lot of effort training my body to win sprints and would have gotten better at them, yes, meaning I'd be finishing 12th instead of 18th. But a club president (and former European racer) told me before I even dreamed of racing that I was a hill climber and that on the ride the next morning I was to show everybody what I could do. (On the big hill, I put minutes on the same riders who were leaving me in the dust on the flat.)
Ben
The best part of belonging to a club is having racers with experience sharing their knowledge with you and observing you and seeing what you need to address next. They will also know far more about what races will be best for you.
Racing is one of the hardest things you can do. It also has the highest highs. But it is also a fascinating mix of skills, training, will-power and smarts. Doing it all on your own will be very overwhelming. With the right people around you, it is much more manageable, less stressful and more fun.
Edit: I missed that you were already thinking about a club in your post, +1 Another point; on of the most fascinating aspects of bike racing is our different body types. To do well, we need to best use the body we were given. That means selecting the race type as much as we can and once in a race, tailoring our effort to best use our body type to maximize our result. Here again, others with experience can be a huge benefit. I could have wasted a lot of effort training my body to win sprints and would have gotten better at them, yes, meaning I'd be finishing 12th instead of 18th. But a club president (and former European racer) told me before I even dreamed of racing that I was a hill climber and that on the ride the next morning I was to show everybody what I could do. (On the big hill, I put minutes on the same riders who were leaving me in the dust on the flat.)
Ben
Last edited by 79pmooney; 07-17-18 at 04:39 PM.
07-17-18, 08:08 PM
#27
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If you've done some group rides before, just go race. There's no explanation that will do it justice. Doing it yourself will let you know exactly where you stand and what you need to work on.
Besides that:
Do the group rides. Learn how to draft, take turns in a group, ride in close proximity. All of that is more important than your average speed, which pretty much doesn't matter a bit in regards to road racing.
What matters most is pack skills and being able to go really, really, really hard. And then recovering. And then going hard again. And recovering, etc. Very stochastic efforts.
Besides the group rides, I'd work on getting in some short, intense effort workouts. Maybe doing a ride with lots of hills and hitting the hills hard, or doing something more structured like 3 mins hard, 3 mins easy, etc.
And i'd work on sprints. Always. Every ride I'd do some sprints. Takes some practice in learning how to maneuver the bike and your body to get maximum power to the pedals, and how to time your jumps/how long you can go for, etc.
Besides that:
Do the group rides. Learn how to draft, take turns in a group, ride in close proximity. All of that is more important than your average speed, which pretty much doesn't matter a bit in regards to road racing.
What matters most is pack skills and being able to go really, really, really hard. And then recovering. And then going hard again. And recovering, etc. Very stochastic efforts.
Besides the group rides, I'd work on getting in some short, intense effort workouts. Maybe doing a ride with lots of hills and hitting the hills hard, or doing something more structured like 3 mins hard, 3 mins easy, etc.
And i'd work on sprints. Always. Every ride I'd do some sprints. Takes some practice in learning how to maneuver the bike and your body to get maximum power to the pedals, and how to time your jumps/how long you can go for, etc.
07-18-18, 09:24 AM
#29
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I think the group ride advice is good. I was very apprehensive before my CX race last year, wondering if I would make a fool of myself. I was faster than some, slower than others in my group rides. Same applied in my CX race. I wasnt anywhere close to the leaders, but I passed my fair share of people.
If you're not way off the back on group ride sprints, just try racing. You'll probably be competitive enough for it to be fun.
If you're not way off the back on group ride sprints, just try racing. You'll probably be competitive enough for it to be fun.
07-18-18, 10:02 AM
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So much good advice here I won't even bother adding a bad joke. Good luck in your endeavors.
07-18-18, 10:30 AM
#31
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Ditto for the advice of "just going out and doing race rides". Not really sure most women are going to get much out of that. Young, good peak power, good bike handling/ability to integrate into the pack to recover- maybe. But your typical newby woman is just gonna get dropped so hard and so fast that she won't be on a fast group ride, she'll be solo off the back and learn zippedty squat. Coming back next week and the week after and the week after may not change very much- the physiologic gap is very large and its not just a matter of diligence for women. The 1%ers, or maybe 10%ers, can do it. The remaining 90ish % of women can't. Hence the disparate ratios of men to women in bike racing.
What's good advice for racing men is not always good advice for racing women. I can ride 22-23 mph solo for an hour, but I still get dropped from fast men's rides to the extent that there's really no point in me doing them.
The best thing for a newby woman is to join a woman's race team, but they are few and far between. The second best thing is to join a men's race team that includes some men who care whether women race and are willing/able to create a scenario such that at least sometimes the group ride is something that works for a woman- however these are also few and far between. The third best (and often most practical) thing is to hire a good coach who works with women and can help you find your way into racing.
Good luck. There's a reason not many women race bikes, it takes a lot of determination, independence, flexibility, etc to figure out how to do it successfully. This is true for men too of course, but women have some unique challenges in the sport and not many peers to help them navigate it, in an overall organization to the sport that sees no problem with it being mostly a male thing.
What's good advice for racing men is not always good advice for racing women. I can ride 22-23 mph solo for an hour, but I still get dropped from fast men's rides to the extent that there's really no point in me doing them.
The best thing for a newby woman is to join a woman's race team, but they are few and far between. The second best thing is to join a men's race team that includes some men who care whether women race and are willing/able to create a scenario such that at least sometimes the group ride is something that works for a woman- however these are also few and far between. The third best (and often most practical) thing is to hire a good coach who works with women and can help you find your way into racing.
Good luck. There's a reason not many women race bikes, it takes a lot of determination, independence, flexibility, etc to figure out how to do it successfully. This is true for men too of course, but women have some unique challenges in the sport and not many peers to help them navigate it, in an overall organization to the sport that sees no problem with it being mostly a male thing.
So I revise my above advice, and just recommend if you can stay in the pack on a friendly roadie group ride, just give racing a go. It might be awfully tough to really gauge how you're going to hold up against a field of cat 5 women before you line up against a field of cat 5 women.
And might I suggest just jumping in a doing a cyclocross race as a first race? I think the atmosphere is much more conducive to dipping your toes into racing. If you've obviously blown up and are way off the back, spectators will cheer you on wildly to stay at it. They'll also probably cheer even more wildly if you just stop on a hill, throw your bike down, and accept a beer from one of the spectators
Last edited by Abe_Froman; 07-18-18 at 11:28 AM.
07-18-18, 11:19 AM
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This is a good point....I hadn't thought of the gender issue.
So I revise my above advice, and just recommend if you can stay in the pack on a friendly roadie group ride, just give racing a go. It might be awfully tough to really gauge how you're going to hold up against a field of cat 5 women before you line up against a field of cat 5 women.
And might I suggest just jumping in a doing a cyclocross race as a first race? I think the atmosphere is much more conducive to dipping your toes into racing. If you've obviously blown up and are way off the back, spectators will cheer you on wildly to stay at it.
So I revise my above advice, and just recommend if you can stay in the pack on a friendly roadie group ride, just give racing a go. It might be awfully tough to really gauge how you're going to hold up against a field of cat 5 women before you line up against a field of cat 5 women.
And might I suggest just jumping in a doing a cyclocross race as a first race? I think the atmosphere is much more conducive to dipping your toes into racing. If you've obviously blown up and are way off the back, spectators will cheer you on wildly to stay at it.
New rules for USA Cycling usher in women's beginner category, radios for elites | Cyclingnews.com
They now have Cat 1-5 just like men's fields.
07-20-18, 07:37 AM
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Keep an eye out on USAcycling.org or bikereg.com for local road racing/crit clinics. Also look for training race series in your region. I can only speak from my experience locally (MABRA), but a few race promoters around here have been very active in promoting beginner womens races, some even offering free race registrations for the W4/5 fields thanks to generous race sponsors.
07-20-18, 08:11 AM
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I was fortunate enough to have very experienced friends and a great training group who eased me into it, and nice, low-key, Weds night club crits to start in. Then I moved on to sanctioned races. I lived in the pack for my entire brief and undistinguished career, but I never took anyone down and it was a great experience.
07-20-18, 09:56 AM
#37
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If you want to race just do it. Too much overthinking in here. Ride a bunch of group rides, sign up for a local crit and race. You might get dropped, you might not. Who cares, nobody is paying you but shoot to finish with the pack. People in here act like it's some crazy macho thing to dress in spandex and ride with a CAT5 group and talk about tactics and watts and crap. FTP??? FOR CAT5??? DUMB! It's fun as hell. A lot of people doling out advice sound like they've never been in a crit.
I made plenty of dumb mistakes in my first crit. Went out too hard and got dropped after several laps. I had sufficient fitness to hang in the pack, but I followed the wrong wheels and couldn't bridge the gap back to the main group.
Sure, a higher FTP probably would've allowed me to get back into the field, but I think getting dropped taught me a better lesson. My first lap average power was in the high 300s, which was stupidly inefficient.
07-20-18, 10:07 AM
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Everyone says speed doesn't matter, but one factor seems inescapable to this non-racer: you have to be fast enough to stay with the field, tail-end group, whatever. Sure there's more to it, and levels beyond levels, but if we're not fast enough to keep up even drafting then we're not fast enough for the race. It seems like a reasonable question to me.
07-20-18, 10:59 AM
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Everyone says speed doesn't matter, but one factor seems inescapable to this non-racer: you have to be fast enough to stay with the field, tail-end group, whatever. Sure there's more to it, and levels beyond levels, but if we're not fast enough to keep up even drafting then we're not fast enough for the race. It seems like a reasonable question to me.
07-20-18, 11:42 AM
#40
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One thing I will add is that there are some really cool crit videos on YouTube that you can watch. Find some filmed on helmet cams. One guy, who I forget his name, has some printed commentary so you can see how he was thinking throughout the race. It is really cool and helps you get a feel for what to do out there.
07-20-18, 12:49 PM
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Ditto for the advice of "just going out and doing race rides". Not really sure most women are going to get much out of that. Young, good peak power, good bike handling/ability to integrate into the pack to recover- maybe. But your typical newby woman is just gonna get dropped so hard and so fast that she won't be on a fast group ride, she'll be solo off the back and learn zippedty squat. Coming back next week and the week after and the week after may not change very much- the physiologic gap is very large and its not just a matter of diligence for women. The 1%ers, or maybe 10%ers, can do it. The remaining 90ish % of women can't. Hence the disparate ratios of men to women in bike racing.
What's good advice for racing men is not always good advice for racing women. I can ride 22-23 mph solo for an hour, but I still get dropped from fast men's rides to the extent that there's really no point in me doing them.
The best thing for a newby woman is to join a woman's race team, but they are few and far between. The second best thing is to join a men's race team that includes some men who care whether women race and are willing/able to create a scenario such that at least sometimes the group ride is something that works for a woman- however these are also few and far between. The third best (and often most practical) thing is to hire a good coach who works with women and can help you find your way into racing.
Good luck. There's a reason not many women race bikes, it takes a lot of determination, independence, flexibility, etc to figure out how to do it successfully. This is true for men too of course, but women have some unique challenges in the sport and not many peers to help them navigate it, in an overall organization to the sport that sees no problem with it being mostly a male thing.
What's good advice for racing men is not always good advice for racing women. I can ride 22-23 mph solo for an hour, but I still get dropped from fast men's rides to the extent that there's really no point in me doing them.
The best thing for a newby woman is to join a woman's race team, but they are few and far between. The second best thing is to join a men's race team that includes some men who care whether women race and are willing/able to create a scenario such that at least sometimes the group ride is something that works for a woman- however these are also few and far between. The third best (and often most practical) thing is to hire a good coach who works with women and can help you find your way into racing.
Good luck. There's a reason not many women race bikes, it takes a lot of determination, independence, flexibility, etc to figure out how to do it successfully. This is true for men too of course, but women have some unique challenges in the sport and not many peers to help them navigate it, in an overall organization to the sport that sees no problem with it being mostly a male thing.
In my area, men and women compete together. Cat 1 & 2 race together (30 miles / 30 laps); and Cat 3, 4 & 5 race together (15 miles / 15 laps). The exception is at the end of the season when daylight ends early, they lump ALL the Cats into one 30 mile race. That, unfortunately, is where I (male rider) decided to give it a whirl.
I hung on for a few laps and was dropped. But I did it just to experience it, to learn, and to see if it was for me.
Anyway, I can compare it to my drive into work in I-78 in New Jersey.
I will say this: I suppose it's ok to enter a race just to experience it - too learn. But for me, I was also trying to be mindful of the other racers who were far more experienced than I.
I didn't want to get in their way, hold them up, or cause a crash. At the start of a race, it's easy to find yourself in the middle of the pack. But by trying to "stay out of the way", you are not really competing, and you (I) will therefor "fail"...not that I had hopes of competing, but I wanted to keep up for longer than I did.
So as was mentioned - get into some faster group rides to get a feel for speed and riding in a group.
Sure, take a crack at a race here and there to get a feel for it.
If you still have the itch after that (even if you feel you're not physically ready) - when you enter the race, make sure you RACE.
07-20-18, 01:41 PM
#42
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Everyone says speed doesn't matter, but one factor seems inescapable to this non-racer: you have to be fast enough to stay with the field, tail-end group, whatever. Sure there's more to it, and levels beyond levels, but if we're not fast enough to keep up even drafting then we're not fast enough for the race. It seems like a reasonable question to me.
07-20-18, 01:52 PM
#43
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As far as group riding... DEFINITELY do it before you race. Not because of the fitness aspect (although this is important), but to learn how to handle a bike in a group. Although most group rides won't emulate the form of a dense main field very well, it's still much better than nothing. Nobody likes aggressive riding with squirrelly riders.
I know a guy who won a combined 1/2/3 race earlier this week on a ~220W average.
During a sequence of attacks, he ended up in a breakaway, but he didn't want to help it out because he was pretty confident in his team's sprint train back in the main group. The other guys really wanted podium spots, so they put in a lot of work and sucked him along. Even with the rest of the break tired from their effort, my friend had to average about 850W for the final 20 seconds of the race in order to win at the line.
That's honestly a lower bar than a lot of people think before they try racing. If you are capable of riding in a pack and staying out of the wind, you can hold your place in a decent size field with very little effort even if the pace is high. There's a dude over on the racer's forum that has podium'd in Cat 2/3 races while averaging ~200 watts. Of course, his max power is well above that, but just pack surfing when there aren't any big surges isn't beyond the reach of fairly avid recreational riders.
During a sequence of attacks, he ended up in a breakaway, but he didn't want to help it out because he was pretty confident in his team's sprint train back in the main group. The other guys really wanted podium spots, so they put in a lot of work and sucked him along. Even with the rest of the break tired from their effort, my friend had to average about 850W for the final 20 seconds of the race in order to win at the line.
Last edited by HTupolev; 07-20-18 at 02:17 PM.
07-20-18, 02:11 PM
#44
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On my own, 223 watts gets me about 19 mph. To do 30+mph for any length of time usually takes 400+ watts.
But that's the difference between a group and on your own. And in a really big group, it's awesome. I was just sucked along in a 120 person field.
Smart riding can do that. I won a 1/2/3 crit Wed night on 242w average at 168 lbs.
07-20-18, 02:26 PM
#45
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If you're doing 17-18 mph on the flats, then your average is probably a mph or two below that. It's time to join a club, one with various ride paces.
07-20-18, 04:21 PM
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That actually wouldn't be such a bad intro.
07-22-18, 08:06 AM
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I think that the blunt and direct answer will sound arrogant and insulting, so we don't hear it. I'd say that the gap between the strong rec rider and the bottom rank racers, someone who hasn't already spent some time riding with those guys, is usually greater than the rec rider imagines. If you can't hang on comfortably, then you're going to be quickly off the back in a race, and it's probably going to take a lot of work first in many of those challenging rides. So odds are, a person is not "fast enough".
07-22-18, 09:10 AM
#48
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I guess it's possible, but I'd assume that anyone asking the question would have ridden with a fast group already, once or twice at least. Not that I'd argue with the advice, given that the recurring answer here is "racing is like the fast group, only harder".
I think that the blunt and direct answer will sound arrogant and insulting, so we don't hear it. I'd say that the gap between the strong rec rider and the bottom rank racers, someone who hasn't already spent some time riding with those guys, is usually greater than the rec rider imagines. If you can't hang on comfortably, then you're going to be quickly off the back in a race, and it's probably going to take a lot of work first in many of those challenging rides. So odds are, a person is not "fast enough".
I think that the blunt and direct answer will sound arrogant and insulting, so we don't hear it. I'd say that the gap between the strong rec rider and the bottom rank racers, someone who hasn't already spent some time riding with those guys, is usually greater than the rec rider imagines. If you can't hang on comfortably, then you're going to be quickly off the back in a race, and it's probably going to take a lot of work first in many of those challenging rides. So odds are, a person is not "fast enough".
Plenty of riders are strong enough to race they just need some experience and skill. An inexperienced racer tends to race inefficiently. They need racing intelligence rather than power. Many first time racers have more than ample power and are 'fast enough' but still can't hang on comfortably until they acquire some skill. It takes a while to be able to ride and move around comfortably in the middle of a pack vs riding on the edges in the wind.
07-23-18, 08:13 AM
#49
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My wife and I race and she started racing 10 years ago. She started by doing time trials and hired a coach. Over the years, she has done group rides but does not find them that helpful. It is not so much keeping up but for her, it is either really hard or too easy. Most coaches do not recommend group rides for training per se because they do not build the power profile needed and the risk reward is not there. Having said that, one needs pack skills and skills training. Skill training can be accomplished from skills clinics and some of them are focused on women. My wife has done some of these.
As humans, we have 3 systems to make energy to contract our muscles - ATP-PC, glycolytic and aerobic. A recreational cyclist in general, has only trained the aerobic system which is used to ride 17 to 18 mph. However, a highly developed aerobic system is a must for a competitive cyclist since bike racing is an aerobic sport (except track sprinting).
The ATP-PC system provides energy for the first 7 seconds of an effort and is very powerful. It is used for sprinting. The glycolytic system is used when high amounts of energy for 2 to 3 minutes are needed after the ATP PC system is exhausted and before the aerobic system kicks in. Keep in mind the three systems work together so it is more complicated than my simple model.
The goal in racing is to be able to go fast when required and that requires fully developed energy systems. Each type of race has different demands on the energy producing systems.
I think most of the above discussion and suggestions are meant for mass start racing. One can always sign up for a local time trial and see how you do to get a benchmark. We all think our average speed is faster than it actually is since we remember our successes. A time trial over a give distance against the clock with real officials and timing reveals the truth. More importantly, it will tell you if you like to suffer.
Raicng is about the ability to suffer a lot. Granted, it is easier and more fun to suffer in a group than alone but one suffers and has to like that feeling.
As far as group rides being the only way to generate race speed, my wife does a lot of motor pacing behind the motor cycle at the track and she has done it on the road. There is no better way to get used to going really fast than riding behind or next to a skilled / coach motor operator.
So for mass start racing step one is to learn pack skills preferably by a skills clinic and smaller group sessions with other women. For time trials, you can race immediately on your road bike. Good luck
As humans, we have 3 systems to make energy to contract our muscles - ATP-PC, glycolytic and aerobic. A recreational cyclist in general, has only trained the aerobic system which is used to ride 17 to 18 mph. However, a highly developed aerobic system is a must for a competitive cyclist since bike racing is an aerobic sport (except track sprinting).
The ATP-PC system provides energy for the first 7 seconds of an effort and is very powerful. It is used for sprinting. The glycolytic system is used when high amounts of energy for 2 to 3 minutes are needed after the ATP PC system is exhausted and before the aerobic system kicks in. Keep in mind the three systems work together so it is more complicated than my simple model.
The goal in racing is to be able to go fast when required and that requires fully developed energy systems. Each type of race has different demands on the energy producing systems.
I think most of the above discussion and suggestions are meant for mass start racing. One can always sign up for a local time trial and see how you do to get a benchmark. We all think our average speed is faster than it actually is since we remember our successes. A time trial over a give distance against the clock with real officials and timing reveals the truth. More importantly, it will tell you if you like to suffer.
Raicng is about the ability to suffer a lot. Granted, it is easier and more fun to suffer in a group than alone but one suffers and has to like that feeling.
As far as group rides being the only way to generate race speed, my wife does a lot of motor pacing behind the motor cycle at the track and she has done it on the road. There is no better way to get used to going really fast than riding behind or next to a skilled / coach motor operator.
So for mass start racing step one is to learn pack skills preferably by a skills clinic and smaller group sessions with other women. For time trials, you can race immediately on your road bike. Good luck
07-29-18, 11:30 AM
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Oh please, this is some WASPY advice here. Group rides are like the cornerstone of bike racing...if you want to get good at riding with a group you ride with a group. Except you do it outside a race environment. RISK/REWARD RATIO??? For a saturday morning group ride? Skills clinic your way to racing? SUFFERING IS RACING?
Come on dudes and dudettes. It's CAT5 racing. It's not about speed for for FIRST DAMN RACE. It's about PARTICIPATING, having fun, and getting used to a big chaotic pack.
And we wonder why women don't pick up the sport.
Come on dudes and dudettes. It's CAT5 racing. It's not about speed for for FIRST DAMN RACE. It's about PARTICIPATING, having fun, and getting used to a big chaotic pack.
And we wonder why women don't pick up the sport.
I will say, though: one really should try some fast group rides to get a sense of how quickly one might get dropped. If one gets dropped on group rides, one won't learn anything from ones first couple of races, except maybe how to pin on a number and how to pose with the bike looking cool before the start. If one hasn't gauged oneself against other riders putting in serious efforts, one should be prepared to get dropped like a hot potato.
