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Boeing 737 Max 8 Killed another 157 People. WTH?

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Boeing 737 Max 8 Killed another 157 People. WTH?

Old 03-20-19, 05:55 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Revoltingest View Post
Note also that the F-16 is aerodynamically unstable, so the pilot actually provides only
inputs to a computer, which does the flying. (A human cannot react quickly enuf.)
Yet it's a very reliable system.
You don't want to start comparing military airplanes to civilian ones for reliability. About 14% of the F-16's ever made have been crashed.
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Old 03-20-19, 06:13 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
You don't want to start comparing military airplanes to civilian ones for reliability. About 14% of the F-16's ever made have been crashed.
Single engine, low level, single pilot, and the extremely dynamic environment of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons delivery....not even in the same ball park or comparable to commercial aviation.
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Old 03-20-19, 06:20 PM
  #103  
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Absolutely, they lead different lives.
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Old 03-20-19, 07:22 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
You don't want to start comparing military airplanes to civilian ones for reliability. About 14% of the F-16's ever made have been crashed.
Given the kind of function they perform, they're quite reliable.
Total fly-by-wire control systems do well.
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Old 03-20-19, 08:24 PM
  #105  
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You don’t need to lecture me. My dad worked for Sperry which became Honeywell ATS, and I did two internships there before deciding it wasn’t my thing. I worked on matching the MD-11 pin outs from the flight computer to the DC-10 so it could be upgraded to a glass cockpit “MD-10,” and before that on manuals for the A319 (which had side sticks not yokes iirc). This is all ancient history, I was just a kid, and I would absolutely defer to the pilots about flying. But the company culture, at least at Honeywell, was fantastic. We had HITL systems running constantly and everything was tested every which way. Something smells about this news story, which is why I’m interested.
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Old 03-21-19, 03:49 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
Something smells about this news story, which is why I’m interested.
It stinks of single point failure. The FAA is equally culpable as anyone else in the chain of this disaster.

Last edited by AnthonyG; 03-21-19 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 03-21-19, 08:35 AM
  #107  
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NYT: Doomed Boeing Jets Lacked 2 Safety Features That Company Sold Only as Extras
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/b...es-charge.html

Boeing’s optional safety features, in part, could have helped the pilots detect any erroneous readings.
One of the optional upgrades, the angle of attack indicator, displays the readings of the two sensors.
The other, called a disagree light, is activated if those sensors are at odds with one another.​​​​​​​
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Old 03-21-19, 08:40 AM
  #108  
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Ethiopia crash captain did not train on airline's MAX simulator: source

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-simulator-exclusive/exclusive-ethiopian-crash-captain-untrained-on-737-max-simulator-idUSKCN1R20WD

“Boeing did not send manuals on MCAS,” the Ethiopian Airlines pilot told Reuters in a hotel lobby, declining to give his name as staff have been told not to speak in public.
“Actually we know more about the MCAS system from the media than from Boeing.”
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Old 03-21-19, 04:16 PM
  #109  
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Another perspective:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...pilot-training

- Mark
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Old 03-24-19, 08:11 PM
  #110  
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Well, some about time and too late news in that Boeing finally made the warning equipment and lights that tell you when MCAS is reacting badly were finally made standard...they were optional before???
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Old 03-24-19, 09:42 PM
  #111  
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Old 03-25-19, 06:39 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
Well, some about time and too late news in that Boeing finally made the warning equipment and lights that tell you when MCAS is reacting badly were finally made standard...they were optional before???
Hey man, I got this minivan for $5. It has no airbags, seatbelts, or doors, buuut... $5!
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Old 04-05-19, 07:10 AM
  #113  
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Preliminary report has been published: https://www.washingtonpost.com/conte...=.6a762c1bfd8b

And if you want to know why the pilots attempts with manual trim failed, it is spelled out here: https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...nvestigations/

In a nutshell: The pilots did everything they were trained to do, but the airplane killed them anyway.
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Old 04-05-19, 10:04 AM
  #114  
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The robot wars have started.
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Old 04-06-19, 09:52 PM
  #115  
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Be Careful!
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Old 04-08-19, 03:31 PM
  #116  
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Airplanes: you can't just coast to a stop
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Old 04-08-19, 03:35 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
Well, some about time and too late news in that Boeing finally made the warning equipment and lights that tell you when MCAS is reacting badly were finally made standard...they were optional before???
$100 Million dollar airplane.

How much do the sensors and gauges cost? $1000?

Someone must really be pinching pennies.
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Old 04-08-19, 03:41 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Airplanes: you can't just coast to a stop
Gliding?

Even many helicopters can glide to some extent.

Of course, stopping mid-air is not always advisable.
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Old 04-08-19, 06:22 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
I read some estimate that a typical 737 can generate over $1 billion in revenue for the airline over its lifespan.
But that airlines are still not very profitable business because of all the other costs which are huge.
So business being business, not community service, probably run by accountants, they are going to try to make money anyway possible.

And competition is fierce. When...you have too much compeition, can effect safety!
Likely gross receipts.

But, one pays 2 or 3 pilots (in shifts), stewards and stewardesses (also shifts), ground crews, maintenance crews, airport staff, etc.

Probably also airport access fees.

Of course, the ground crews are likely in charge of filling dozens of planes every day, but it all ads up.

I'd imagine those billions of dollars dwindle quickly.

Is fuel counted in that?

And, of course, it could vary for every country. Somehow the American owned airlines often also often have the worst service.
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Old 04-08-19, 06:36 PM
  #120  
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Of course, this accident wasn't in the USA, but for some top 100 airline rankings.

https://www.worldairlineawards.com/w...airlines-2018/
https://www.airhelp.com/en/airhelp-s...rline-ranking/

A couple of different rankings, but none of the US airlines make it anywhere close to the top 10.

Donald Trump should be proud, however, all the US airlines trail behind Aeroflot, at least for quality of service... Of course, Trump doesn't fly commercial anyway.
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Old 04-08-19, 06:41 PM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Gliding?

Even many helicopters can glide to some extent.

Of course, stopping mid-air is not always advisable.
Air Transat flight 236 had a fuel system malfunction, if you call a fuel leak of a gallon a second a malfunction, with 2nd engine (of 2) flame out 75 miles NW of the Azores.
they glided it in. 2001.
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Old 04-08-19, 06:55 PM
  #122  
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So they managed to put a DeFAILeur hanger on an airplane?? WTF
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Old 04-08-19, 11:20 PM
  #123  
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stick engines on that screw up the balance , and rather than redesign where the wings go ,
just bodge together a software fix..

this summarizes the analysis team Mr Nader put together..

Boeing will just fix the software ,, send it out


with CAD they could just specify the wings need to be a couple inches ahead..and make the physical balance right, ?
and the rest falls in behind it..

right?
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Old 04-09-19, 06:25 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
stick engines on that screw up the balance , and rather than redesign where the wings go ,
just bodge together a software fix..

this summarizes the analysis team Mr Nader put together..

Boeing will just fix the software ,, send it out


with CAD they could just specify the wings need to be a couple inches ahead..and make the physical balance right, ?
and the rest falls in behind it..

right?
Why didn't they just re-do the landing gear so the engines could be in a more sensible location?
Same answer. Rearrange the airframe like that and it's not technically a 737 anymore, so you have to re-certify the whole thing like a brand new airplane.
This costs money, so you have to do these shinanegans to avoid it.
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Old 04-09-19, 10:46 AM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Airplanes: you can't just coast to a stop
The one that landed in the Hudson did.
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