seeker333

The PowerGrips I linked in #111 will work with most street shoes. Their retention mechanism is simple - your shoe goes in at an angle, and when you align it with pedal this creates enough strap tension to keep shoe on pedal. Release is simply lift shoe and twist heel outwards. The only downside I found is if you lean sharply into turns you may get "pedal strike" from the Powergrip outboard strap guide impacting road surface - so don't do that.

Powergrips are sold as complete pedals+PG, or less costly strap+hardware portion only, which is the option I chose, paired with Wellgo MTB pedals.

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Grips-Toe-Straps/dp/B001GSSOGM?th=1&psc=1

PaulRivers

I had similar issues with flats. Five Ten shoes solved that problem for me. They grip rock/metal pins on pedals nearly as solidly as clipless. While still letting you pull your foot up off the pedal.

Clipless works well to of course. But fyi for anyone considering both.

PaulRivers

Yeah, there's a whole myth about clipless being more efficient or faster. People see the attachment to the pedal and naturally think "must increase efficiency". But you can search youtube for numerous comparisons done and in the lab with equipment there is no improvement with clipless.

Some people argue that clipless is advantage in niche situations in racing like letting you put down more power in all out sprinting. Races can be won by 5 seconds or simply not getting dropped from the pack so it's a bit different. It could be, it's hard to test and I don't race so I don't feel qualified to wade into it, but I know they can test the difference in riding on the flat and found no difference.

Used to be there was a big advantage in clipless of your foot not slipping off the pedal by accident but you can fix that today with five ten bike shoes.

Like I said, both clipless and flats are good systems. Which to choose is a matter of personal preference. But per people testing in the lab increasing pedal stroke efficiency isn't a difference between the two.

djb

riding flats or clipped in, doesnt matter to me what other folks use, live and let live is my motto.

however, my lifetime of riding, 30 years of touring, and riding regularly, and using spd's since 92 have shown clearly to me the increased efficiency of clipless pedals--very specifically with climbing.
In tests I did very early on, I found that for climbing, there is a noticeable difference, and I like a lot even on the flats that I can switch up my muscle groups in how I pedal, which is a nice break.

I figure also the fact that I am not a strong rider, so I tend to notice small advantages.

but hey, again, thats my take on it, and certainly with touring on a heavy bike where one realizes right away that there really is hardly ever any real "flat", I'll take any advantage I can (and throw in all the unloaded riding aspects of clipless that are great--stability flying over rough surfaces, sprinting for lights or whatever--both things I do every day and clipless are great for this.)

PaulRivers

In any large group of people half the group could find something preferable while the other half finds the other thing preferrable. But they've tested this with pro/semi pro racers and in the lab on the flat it makes no difference for them. Here's one easy to find test from youtube in a lab:

I can't say "you" don't, what do I know over the internet?

But I know in actually testing it with people who are very good at biking they didn't find the speed or efficiency advantage people thought they would. I've read other stuff about why, and they think that:
- The big major powerful muscles groups (quads hamstrings) evolved to exert force downwards
- There are small muscles that pull the leg up (hip flexors)- The specifics of how the body works mean you can't actually turn them all on at the same time - you can't push down with quads and pull back with hamstrings with one leg and pull up with the hip flexors on the other. Kinda like how you can't drive your car sideways because it's just not designed to do it.
- There is some debate about whether using the hip flexors in such a manner is really a good idea as overly tight hip flexors cause posture issues but that is a different subject


The biggest undisputed advantage of clipless is simply foot retention, you can see why people in a race don't want their foot slipping off the pedal:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVYPpqCvles&feature=youtu.be&t=77

Like I said there's debate on whether clipless might well make you faster (though at the cost of burning more calories) in a sprint. And it might save you a few grams compared to flat pedals.

But the "clipless is inherently faster/more efficient in general and for everyone" is not something they found when they ran tests looking for it.

djb

I remember watching that GCN vid back when it came out.
My off the cuff tests years ago consistently had me climbing about one gear higher with clipless vs flats, more or less one gear, and pedalling more "in circles" seemed to make my various leg muscles feel better.
It would be interesting to do the same climbing tests again now 25 years later, but like I said, foot retention and hammering in a sprint for a light with foot pullup combining with pushing down is something I enjoy, and the foot retention thing is a big plus for me also, as I barrel over all kinds of stuff on my commute.
Heck, a few winters ago when I made the decision to keep riding in the snow, as prep and continuing riding to keep the legs in good shape before a late jan. departure for a long touring trip, I actually started with removing my spd's from my mtb, but after one ride, it just felt weird and went back to the clipless.

yes, there are times riding snow or really technical stuff that not clipped in can be nice, but for all the rest, I still prefer clipped.

and to go back to my views on clipless when climbing, I have done a lot of loaded riding in mountains, and I find the changeup of pedalling style that clipless allows makes a real difference to my leg muscles comfort over hours and hours, and I feel it helps maintain a higher cadence, which has a knockoff benefit for knees and knee muscles (Ive got a dodgey knee a bit, and so again, appreciate every little bit-even if it is whatever percent of an advantage)

u235

I think I replied in this thread a while ago but it is still going


I used flats for decades and switched to clipless a few years ago on my gravel/road bike. In my opinion, efficiency, slipping or not, comfort, ease etc comes down to what you are used to and your style. I never as far as I can remember ever slipped off my pedals with flats, that was BMX, MTB, and road bike under all kinds of conditions. Now that I am "used to" clipless and actually built up a trust for them and not just something to hold my feet in one place, I actually do slip or at least get a little light at times on occasion when I go back to flats. Interesting transformation. I still use flats on my MTB but if the trend continues of relearning, I'll probably eventually increase using clipless there too.

In the end in my case I can't say one is better than the other. What clipless did for me along with some other changes and conditioning was get to a higher cadence average allowing longer days with little to no knee pain. I was always a masher but after not riding much for a while and getting back in, mashing didn't work for me anymore above 40 or so miles or sequential days. Maybe that would have worked itself out with or without clipless, who knows. Either way I am using them now.

Happy Feet

To me the efficiency of clipless is not in power output but in not needing to think about foot position.

If you set the cleat to the best position your foot will go there every time, all day. That eliminates the need to check or adjust foot position which over many hours can add up.
If I get a cramp or hot foot I can lift my foot while pedaling and wiggle/flex it.

On the flip side, If you tend to stop and start a lot and/or get on and off the bike regularly, clipless may not be more efficient as you have to think about clipping in and out.

With my long distance road tour bike I am clipless. On my off road bike and my commuter I am platform. Plus platform allows me to wear trail running/hiking/work shoes.

rossiny

Been thinking of which pedals to use. I just bought a touring bike after years nit riding much. When I was younger road the old school cleats. Those were something. Now have the newer clipless. I am leaning towards either mountain bike clipless or just platforms. Thanks for alm the info🤓

fietsbob

So have you chosen yet?

Here a rider from Montreal bought shoes & pedals , wore 'look' style starting out

But LBS (middle of 'nowhere') did not have replacement 'look' cleats.... @ that moment,

but had shoes & pedals to convert to 'spuds' ...

hint: done leave for a tour, with worn gear or a bike not overhauled before you start..







...

PaulRivers

Part of the comparison to "flats" is like which one is the person talking about?
- The cheap slick pedals the bike shop including with their bike
- Better make pedals with pins
- Pedals with pins + five ten (or similar) shoes with grippy rubber

I had a similar experience, before clipless I don't remember slipping around on the pedal, after clipless I found it to be a problem with both cheap pedals and expensive pedals with pins.
Then Five Ten shoes and there is no slipping with these guys. I had to lift my foot off the pedal to reposition it with the first pair of shoes I bought it was a bit extreme. I think they've actually toned down the grip on their more recent models because it was to much for average people before.

I use Dmr Vault Pedals and Five Ten Freeriders, now there's never any slipping at all, never any hotspots, never any numbness in my feet. Not all flats were this good for me though.

Sure...I usually don't go into it because it starts a thread war, but since people are writing about it anyways... :-/

Clipless really did not work well for me. I had:
- Right foot would get a very uncomfortable hotspot halfway through nearly every ride
- Right foot would often be numb by the end of most rides
- Right knee would sometimes be painful (only with clipless not flats)
- Always felt unsteady on clipless my feeling of steadiness and connection is much better with good flats and shoes

I'm personally embarassed I tried so hard to make clipless work for me, I tried at least:
- 2 fittings
- 3 pairs of different clipless shoes
- 3 pairs of expensive shoe inserts
- Multiple pedal systems (speedplay, shimano, crank brothers, time atacs)
- Few different saddles just in case

All trying to make clipless work.

I finally (embarrassing how long it took) tried going back to flats.
- Immediately half these problems went away but still got some foot numbness and a little slipping on the pedals occassionally
- Went to the shoes and pedals I mentioned above and it all went away
- And I meant it went away completely - I'd jump off the bike at the end of the ride and my feet would feel fantastic.

Then there's other things that are just nice with flats:
- I change shoes at home then wear the shoes for the drive over, the ride, any restaurants/eating/etc, drive back home. No more of the shoe changing dance in the parking lot. Never get to the ride only to realize I forgot to put my clipless shoes in the car.
- I feel more stable on the bike with good flats.
- Commuting somewhere? Just hop off the bike and walk in. No need to bring a 2nd pair of shoes, change shoes, or click-clack around somewhere.
- I didn't have the issues some people did with clipping in and out, but I just felt like there was always a small mental load when riding with clipless, that went away when I went back to flats.

As I said I'm personally embarrassed I spent so much time trying to follow the ideology and make clipless work, when I could have enjoyed biking a ton more by switching back to flats earlier. Not everyone's experience was the same as mine but I find in real life (not online) I meet a heck of a lot of people who tried both and went back to flats, vs people telling me clipless was better for them.

Happy Feet

Well.. most modern road riders, many off road riders and all pros use clipless so why be embarrassed about trying them.

It's fine that you don't use or like them but don't try to paint a picture of non functionality that isn't there.

They aren't that big a deal to use.. or not use.

AusTexMurf

We have both the Shimano A530 and two sets of the M324. I have a strong preference for the dual platform w/ SPD pedals. Wear SPD mtn shoes w/ some flexibility for walking and carry a pair of lightweight barefoot design trail runners or Vibram Five Fingers for use off bike.
I actually prefer the following two dual platform pedals more than the Shimano models above. The M324 are a bit heavy and mtn bike focussed and I find the A530's slippery on the platform side when wet.

Origin8 Dual Sports are very nice on my Bianchi Volpe. Small, lightweight, very grippy on the platform side.




We have two sets of the Exustar E-PM811. Smooth sealed bearings, nice wide grippy platform, best pedals to ride barefoot or in sandals.

Tourist in MSN

I like the look of those Origin8 pedals. Thanks for posting.

AusTexMurf

All priced the same. Modern Bike in Des Moines, IA has been around a while. Thinking TheBikeShop.com may be Niagra Cycles restructured. Amazon option is Uptown Bicycle Shop in San Diego.

Modern Bike - Origin8 Dual Sport SPD Clipless Platform Pedals

The Bike Shop - Origin8 Dual Sport Pedals

Amazon - Origin8 Dual Sport Pedals

PaulRivers

I said I was embarrassed I spent so much time and money trying to make them work for me when they obviously weren't working. It's absurd I was spending years trying to make it work when I could have just switched back to flats and been much happier and enjoyed my rides a lot more. I just bought into the "must make clipless work because they must be better" mentality.

The picture of non-functionality was there for me. Maybe a third things are true for everyone and the other half vary from one person to another.

I agree but seems like the convo only goes towards saying clipless is good and getting upset at it's drawbacks, I think one should be able to discuss the pro's and the con's of them.

If you're having trouble with them like I was there's no reason to try to force yourself into them like I was doing.

Happy Feet

I can agree with all that

I see clipless and platforms as tools for different jobs with pros and cons to each.

fietsbob

I personally toured on toe clip pedals *.. the shoes fit my feet looser than you could get away with, clipless ..

comfortable supportive insoles stiff arch support , I rode for months, comfortably,

at a modest pace..

* old reliable Campag Steel Quill 'Record'..








...

j.postema

On most longer bike trips I don't use clipless, only on my recumbent bike. On daily trips at home I always use clipless pedals.

Happy Feet

Thanks for stepping up and taking the risk. We once had a fellow here who swore riding with platforms was dangerous because their feet flew off the pedals.

I'm glad you made it through ok.

Rick

I have used spd style and Speedplay frog clipless pedals. My current shoes are too Chinese and I have wide feet. So I have some flat pedals on my bicycle until I can get some custom shoes. It seems to me that many people make clipless pedals out to be scary or to hard to use. I have noticed that some of my friends in the past were lazy and did not practice before venturing out onto the road. One individual had such anxiety that he failed to release his foot while stooping just before several cattle guards. Proper fitting bicycle shoes and a retention system allow you to travel safer and further down the road. Feet slipping or shaken off of pedals because of bad road surfaces or avoiding obstacles does happen and that platform pedal digs into your leg. Bruised feet from wearing street shoes on long rides. How many Tour de France riders use flat pedals.

noglider 

@Rick, tour de france riders have different needs than Joe Average.

DropBarFan

I ride 1,000's of km's with flip-flops & Teva-type sandals but on a tour I rode off a curb at slow speed & pedal bit my shin. At a faster speed that might have caused a serious accident. On tours one may encounter rain. In the old days I used toe-clips & straps bit they had limitations. Bulky shoes didn't fit in well; grippy shoes not always easy to pull out. I'd tour only with clipless except for shoe-fit issues, for me it's hard to understand why not. Clipless gives more efficiency & safety though I will say that sometimes riding long-distance with clipless gives some mild ankle soreness that I don't get with sandals. IMHO double-side pedals make sense.

Rick

Joe average does not even know what clipless is. It is obvious that most of the people on this forum are not average. I used bicycle shoes with the nail in cleats and toe clips and they were an improvement. over flat pedals with or without toe clips. I never considered them a problem. Clipless is an improvement over all other systems. They have different needs! I do not believe they use clipless pedals because they have different needs. Retension of the feet on the pedals prevents injury and loss of control that can happen under certain conditions. Having your foot in the same position over the pedal allows you to waste less energy. Everybody or most can benefit from this not, just Tour De France riders. I am not saying it is not complicated. I am saying it is not that complicated. Anxiety can play into this and create problems. I was on a group ride on a Sunday morning and there were several cattle guards on the route. One of the riders had just put some new clipless pedals on at the start point. When we approached and stopped and dismounted just before the cattle guard he fell over. Once he was on the ground he managed to disengage his feet from the pedals. This continued to happen at one intersection and a couple more cattle guards. Although suggestions had been made so he wouldn't repeat the problem he just couldn't seem to disengage from the pedals, when ever he came to a stop. The ride leader decided to make our next stop a parking lot so we could help him out. Yes we were ready with a controlled landing. two of us were ahead of him and dismounted and kept him upright when he stopped. We held him up while he practiced in and out. He actually got one foot out at the next intersection even though it was a little to late. No harm though the other riders gave him plenty of room at stops lest he fall on them. Again: this is not that complicated. Practice before you embarrass or Inger yourself. Disclaimer I am not most people I have a big head, short wide feet and am Bo legged. So one size fits most does not do it for me.

Happy Feet

Efficiency can also be seen in different ways.

The GCN guys are testing efficiency in terms of maximum wattage output in a controlled setting for a short period of time. As I said before, for long distance touring the efficiencies could be not needing to think about where the foot is on the pedal, always having the foot oriented in the best position, being able to "float" the foot etc...

And as I said, those efficiencies may diminish if the conditions change such as if you start and stop a lot, don't do high mileage or ride rough terrain.

Here's a pic of my buddy after he just fell while clipped in. We are bushwhacking a section of the Trans Canada Trail between road sections and he chose his clipless gravel bike while I used my platform off road bike. This section required more effort from him because we were on and off the bikes a lot.






Here's a pic where I am doing long days on hwys. Here clipless was more efficient because I dismounted infrequently, and then often only one foot down for pictures..