thook

gorgeous treks you have, dave! love treks

i was just wondering.....what's the swing like on those command shifters, anyway? i wear a men's M size gloves, but my fingers aren't particularly long. even shimano brifters are a little awkward for me. doable, but it is a bit of stretch

i'm going to try and avoid as much complication as possible stick with parts that are "meant" to work together on this. keep my tinker time to a necessary minimum (famous last words) <<<fingers crossed>>>

dddd

The Golden Boy wrote:
"...As an aside- someone posted an ad (Yeti?) that had XC Pro thumb shifters as an option to use with M900 XTR derailleurs..."

This would have worked quite well (especially with Suntour having by this time gone to uniform/symmetrical 8s cog spacing), assuming that they were attaching the derailer cable to the "wrong" side of the rear derailer pinch bolt!

I've gotta think that they surely did just that on these special bikes.

dddd

You'll probably like the command shifters, especially if you are not having to frequently shift at either end of the lever's travel.
Within the middle region of the cassette, the shifting is relatively effortless and ergonomic, but stabbing for low gear gets your thumb up there (not bad) while shifting to easier rear gears from the drops is yet more awkward. Outside of these two extremes, they work pleasantly.

The Golden Boy 

Thanks!

My hands are built about like yours- I usually take a medium glove, but the fingers are always too long. The Command Shifters are perfect for me- I usually never ride in the drops- unless heading into the wind. I can shift from the tops, the ramps, the hoods... it's just reaching up and pushing or pulling- if you can't reach the paddle to push it, reach to the other side and pull. This is with B177 bars- with long ramps. I got most of my Command Shifters from a guy that was selling them NOS $60-$90 in the boxes a few years ago.

The Golden Boy 

I didn't believe a company would mix and match TOTL drive train parts in 1994.... I was wrong.

thook

i do tend to shift to and fro the larger cogs frequently since i live in a hilly region. add the deeper drop of classic bars (vs compact) and trying to shift in the drops ....yeah...it sounds like those would also be a stretch. it's never stopped me, though

thook

$60-$90???? i saw a set the other day on ebay for over $200....wtf!!?? good for you, man

yeah, i probably annoy the shelf stockers; i always pull the packaging apart so i can try gloves on first too long glove thumbs are the worst

The Golden Boy 

That was a few years ago- I kept seeing the same set up for $60, but they apparently sold... bought a set from him... received them... then noticed the price was $70. It kept going like that.

After a while, he hadn't posted any and I still wanted a set- I messaged him and he sold me his last set for $90. Again, this was a few years ago.

canklecat

Main reason I switched from the original Suntour GPX pulleys to Tacx sealed bearing was for the reduced friction. I couldn't reduce the friction satisfactorily with the original sintered bushing bearings -- dry, lubed with grease, oil or wax. There was significantly more drivetrain drag than with any comparable drivetrain I'd tried, including an older 6-speed Shimano 600 RD with similar sintered bushing bearings. I'd guessimate it was costing 5-10 watts, and was worst in the big ring and smaller cogs.

Switching to Tacx sealing bearing plastic (or whatever that stuff is -- Delrin?) pulleys solved the problem. The similarity to the Shimano Centeron and Bullseye pulleys didn't seem to make as much difference as simply reducing friction. Shifting is about the same. There's slightly more drivetrain rattle with the floating pulley, but not as bad as with Bullseye aluminum.

Out of curiosity I replaced the pulleys on a later 8-speed Shimano 600 Tricolor with the same Tacx pulleys. Made no difference. The original Centeron upper and Bullseye lower were already good. I'll save the Tacx for another project.

I'm not strong enough to justify the cost of ceramic or titanium sealed pulleys, but for $12-$15 the lowest price Tacx pulleys can be a significant and costs effective improvement with some draggy sintered bushing bearing pulleys.

masi61

I don’t think this is correct. SunTour AP-II 8 speeds still had the asymmetrical spacing as far as I know.

thook

hey guys.....i've had an offer for some 7spd AP barcons....if the person will respond back. but, please, tell me true....i'm not barking up the tree of disappointment with suntour indexing, am i? i am used to shimano sti. and, i have one bike with a veloce shimergo set up. i'm still reading over the yellow jersey link, but overall i get the accushift thing technically. i don't want to get into this and find it's more fuss than i'd like, ya know?

Cycle Tourist

[QUOTE=thook;20979416]hello peoples,

i have two 7spd suntour AP freewheels i'd like to try and use on two different builds. for shifting, i'd prefer some barcons or perhaps the command shifters...whichever pops up at a price i can manage. obviously, there are downtube shifters, but i don't care for them off pavement which i do alot of. a few technicalities on AP shifters are beyond me, though.

first, is the front shifting friction?
second, is the rear friction/indexed or just indexed?
third, do i need a set of AP specific derailleurs? (moot on front if friction). i have some suntour friction rear cyclones (two MkII's and one 3k) and one X-1 rear labeled as AP from an early giant boulder atx mountain bike.
fourth, some of the AP shifters i see on ebay say 5/6/7spd compatible. i'm assuming that simply means the spacing is the same across, but i wonder if maybe the 6spd shifters might luckily have that "extra" click like my old shimano XT 7spd thumbies have (making them capable of shifting 8spd) ???
lastly, if DT shifters are my only affordable option, will they only mount on bosses or will they mount on a suntour downtube clamp? or, (just occurred to me) will they mount on bar end pods of suntour or other brand? if the latter is the case, then DT shifters would certainly be another option for me

as a side note, what's the best way to lube the freewheels without dismantling them?

Thanks a bunch for the question as I deal with this stuff all the time. Shifters that are 5/6/7 compatible are compatible probably because they are either friction type or have a friction mode that allows them to work. Friction barends will obviously work with any number of gears. I actually prefer 6 because the shifting is easier with wider spacing.
Six and seven freewheels have different spacing so you can't use indexed shifters interchangeably. You can only use a 6 with a 6 or 7 with a 7. You can usually put a seven speed freewheel on most all bikes that have a six speed freewheel. The narrower spacing allows them to fit.

Almost any good derailleur will work with indexed shifters regardless of whether they were originally designed for them or not, and rarely is a new chain needed to get everything to work together. Your Cyclones should work fine.
Shimano and Suntour use the same spacing so I've used Shimano freewheels, ('cause I like the twist tooth and other inovations
they came up with), with Suntour barends for quite a few touring bikes. It works fine. The inverse is equally true.
Hyperglide freehubs are spaced the same as freewheels so don't let their differences scare you. For my money I'd rather have a freehub especially for touring because it makes fixing spokes much easier. There is one exception. Dura Ace has it's own spacing and therefore it's own shifters and WILL NOT work on anything else.
The real problem is in laying your hands on an indexing barend at a reasonable price. Suntour and Shimano barends cost $40-$50 and and for me that raises the price beyond where I want to go. Even the friction barends are getting pricey.
Most of them have friction shifting on the front derailleur, by the way. It's rare to find one that clicks on the FD. Strangely, there are plenty of thumb shifters at a very reasonable cost in seven speeds and many of them click on the FD. I've been trying to see if barend mounting a couple of very simple thumb shifters would work, or if mounting them close to the stem is a reasonable alternative. Both seem to work.
Anyhow that's my .02
Oh yeah, lubing a freewheel! Now, I used to pull em apart and lube them with bearing grease. Now, I pour a tiny bit of motor oil into the top, near the seam where it moves as it spins and spin it. The oil goes to the bearings and cleans them as it lubricates. Don't put in much, and do it as often as feels right. For me, that twice a year.

Love your question as I'm doing this

dddd

Thanks for the correction on this.
It's been a really long time since I had to deal with any Suntour 8s cassettes, glad to say!
Accu-7 was and sort of still is my specialty.

The Golden Boy 

If you've got the proper Accushift shifter, derailleur, freewheel/cassette- You're pretty much golden with 7/8 speed. So to speak.

If you're planning on mixing in stuff that doesn't belong- A Shimano FW or SRAM derailleur... you're taunting fate.

Use good Jagwire housing and cables, a SRAM 870 chain, rout the cables properly- you'll be fine.

Accushift shifts very definitively- it's "Ker-chunk". You know when you shift gears- as @masi61 said:
If you ever get the inkling to move up the Accushift ladder- there's some beautiful equipment that works great in the environment it was designed to work in- especially with the help of modern cable, housing and chains.

I've always loved this pic of a Superbe Pro RD on my almost entry level Trek 400 Elance- with a dork disk.

SuperbePro400 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

BFisher

Interesting discussion.
I acquired an Accushift-equipped bike over the winter and was both eager and nervous to give it a go.
So far, with 140-ish miles on it, I really like the way it shifts - definite difference in feel to Shimano indexing.
This is Quattro-branded, but think I figured out it was Cyclone 7000 stuff. It works great. We'll see how it holds up.

thook

well, thank you. and, you're welcome!

there's plenty of thumbies at good prices likely because hardly anyone wants them...lol! i'd guess shimano and sram pretty much have the thumb shifter market needs met. especially shimano and vintage builds. i remember when rapid fire triggers came out. blown away!!! i still have a set of deore dx and a set of lx 7spds in great shape. i plan to use the lx, atleast, some time this summer on something. but, yeah...the bar end prices are getting typically outrageous. i know there are sellers out there that are what i'd consider reasonable. i just wait for them to pop up with something most of the time

so, some of what you say is not quite in line with other are saying. nevertheless, i'll weigh everything out and see what i have to work with on my second "AP" build if it comes to experimenting. that's a ways down the road, though (if i even do it..lol). i think i actually have one wide range shimano freewheel. pretty sure it's 6spd, though. i have read others comment on 6spd shifting better/easier/more preferably, so i'm also curious about that. i for sure have a 1st gen shimano 600 6spd UG cassette 13-28t. right...it has the twisted teeth. i liked it fine for it's shifting. problem with it was the freehub; no modifying to it to make it HG compatible.

i knew that about dura ace

i'm reading a lot of people lube the freewheel sans disassembly. before i even started this thread, i thought to use the differential fluid because there's typically additives that cause the oil to adhere really well to the metal so it isn't just flung off and there's lubrication there at start ups. plus, the lube doesn't hold on to contaminates in the way greases do. and, you know, differentials have gears and clutches and seals...it's all under torque and pressure often at high rpms. so. kinda the same dynamic. of course, a differential is also a lube bath, so i guess grease is ultimately better for freewheel. anyway, it oughtta do for now

thook

okay......well, even with some contradictory input here, i feel relieved and will go ahead with my plans. i do thank you all!

golden boy....indeed, suntour made some of the nicest bike bits to my eyes. and, that is a lovely shot of the drivetrain! so, what might be the "equivalent" to the superb in the mtb/long cage line up for 7spd AP? i can't get anything right now, but eventually i think i'd like to. (my x-1 could use some serious touch up paint). and, i'd like it to resemble the superb or even cyclone mkII as much as possible. you know, that way it'll match up nicely with the mkII FD and the sugino AT triple i'll be installing. right now my univega (gran turismo) has suntour BL derailleurs and SR custom triple, but the spider is 118bcd (harder to find rings for) and min granny ring is 36t. the sugino will allow me to go down to 24t and i'd still be within the era of the bike. i can do it, so why not, eh? anyhow, built like i imagine it, it'll resemble the specialisma build specs.....an upgrade as it were

i can see why it would go "ker-chunk" when shifted vs shimano....hence "hyper glide". all the ramping and synchronizing shimao does.

btw, i think your dork disc is missing it's good friend yellow reflector

thook

like i said, i've got these two 7spd suntour freewheels, right? one does say AP on it, and it's a 13-30. but, i got a closer look at the second, after a better cleaning, and it doesn't say AP on it! it's 13-28t and just has a little symbol i can't describe. gosh....would it still be an accushift type freewheel being 7spd? i had the two packaged together i assume for a good reason ...ie. i'd determined years ago they were both AP. i wanna say i've had them since around the time i'd joined the forum 'cause at that time i'd begun my vintage "education". anyway, i'm digging the web for info it, but if you guys have any clues i'd welcome the input

that's a sexy machine, Bfisher! so much cleaner than any of mine...lol!

edit: okay...yeah, it's the suntour alpha symbol. nevermind.....

BritishV8

I'm joining this thread late and not replying to any post in particular... mostly just to say I really love my Command shifters. (I like bar-ends on my commuter bike, but not as much. I've got no use for downtube shifters at all.)

You should note that Suntour made multiple variations of Command shifters. I prefer the versions where each shifter is spaced off the handlebar by a round aluminum bushing rather than a formed steel part. I think the length and shape of the levers varied too.

Ergonomically, I believe Command shifters probably work better today, with more modern brake levers and bar shapes, than they did back in the day. (I'm using Tektro RL-340 levers on a Soma Hwy One bar.) I like having shifting entirely separate from braking: the simplicity of it and that it results in better feel upon brake lever actuation. Shifts are convenient for me to reach without removing my hands from the tops, or the hoods, or the drops - right through the whole range. I wear XL gloves, so I'll concede that people with shorter fingers might not love these shifters as much.

My RB-1 came to me with complete Accushift system, but I already had a spare wheel with Hyperglide freewheel, so I tried an almost blind back-to-back test... and I never went back to the Suntour freewheel. On the one hand Ultraglide shifts MUCH smoother and more quietly than Accushift, and on the other hand the Shimano freehub is MUCH quieter than the Suntour freewheel. Plus, you can have an extra cog or two if you want. On the RB-1 I used 8 cogs of a 12-27 9-speed cassette on a 7/8 speed freehub body, in combination with a SRAM 9-speed chain. Worked great!

I set the Command shifters to the friction mode... now, I know there are detents and maybe the detent spacing is slightly off, but I've found the detents aren't deep enough to matter at all. They function as friction shifters! Ride the bike before deciding for yourself, and I think you'll probably agree. (The detents feel more significant until you're actually riding. The amount of friction in your cables and spring in your derailleurs will affect perception.)

I got hit by a car, and my RB-1's frame got bent... so last winter I transferred over my Command shifters to a Soma Smoothie build. Now I'm running the Command shifters with Shimano 105 derailleurs (RD-5701/FD-5700), compact crankset (FC-5750), CS-M750 11-32T 9-speed cassette., and Sram 971 chain. The shifters are excellent! It's just a pity Suntour didn't get them to market a couple years earlier - maybe brifters would never have caught on.

I hope something here helps someone.

sdn40

I can't get this idea out of my head. Shimano had the A050, which I haven't tried, but the reviews aren't great. I think the idea is a great one. Most here won't agree but as you get older and need to reach down what feels like 3 feet on a 60+ frame, what other people think doesn't much matter. Grip shifters are bulky and ugly. I keep coming back to the A050 and don't understand why they can't improve on that. Sooner or later, along with brifters (more expensive) another option will be needed to take the C&V to the next generation.

masi61

A few follow up comments I would make to add to the conversation here.

1) you asked for a MTB version of the SunTour Cyclone or Superbe Pro (Accushift version). I would say check out the XC Pro which came in short, mid & long cage versions or the Cyclone 7000 long cage which would shift touring gears and be Accushift compatible as well. These derailleurs are very well made with strong springs and have a great aesthetic (silver and black graphics for the XC Pro and all silver for the Cyclone 7000) Before the XC Pro here was the XC 9000 components which are very high quality, but I don’t think they are Accushift compatible. The later “SL” series was Accushift compatible. The SL derailleurs had a light grey graphic.

2) Your Alpha and AP freewheel are Accushift compatible, but so are the Winner and Winner Pro freewheel that use the 4-prong puller. This is how you can distinguish the newer type. The earlier “Winner” with the 2 prong freewheel body or “new Winner” were friction only.

3) Dura Ace spacing. For the cassettes and freewheels it should be identical to other Shimano s.i.s. indexed freewheels for 6 and/or 7 speeds. The incompatibility is with the shifters and rear derailleur which have to be matched with the Dura Ace. So running a Dura Ace 7 speed freewheel or cassette - it would index great with Deore LX or Shimano 105 7-speed rear derailleurs and shifters, just to give 2 compatible examples.

4) @BritishV8: Love the pairing of the Tektro aero brake levers with the post mount Command shifters below the Tektro levers on your Soma - very classy. If it were me, I would try to go all out and track down a full 8 speed Accushift rear derailleur and rear cassette hub and cassette and have the whole system play together natively.

I’m not sure why but the on eBay, it is feast or famine for some of these parts. For a while a few years ago there were plenty of XC Pro freewheel or cassette hubs available at reasonable prices. The 8 speed “microdrive” freehub body hub is needed for the stepped microdrive 8-speed cassette. These are becoming rare but if you could track one of these down, they would be trick. Older cassette cogs were much heavier than modern so just having one might be enough to last for 10,000 miles or more of use.

canklecat

That distinctive "kerchunk" shifting feel and sound disappears when I switch my GPX setup from Suntour to SunRace freewheel (and appropriate chain). That fancypants chamfered/beveled, whatchamacallit tooth shape really makes a difference, especially paired with a good chain like the KMC Z-72. Pretty much the only sound is the index shifter clicking.

Cycle Tourist

I get it. I have fewer and fewer DT shifters too.
Some stem shifter brackets look like common DT shifter bosses. Probably you could move accushift or sis up to the stem using those but with the price of the a050 I've seen, they look interesting. Good luck. Keep me posted. I'm restoring a nice 'Dale ST 400. It comes with a dt indexing 6.
(princeJL@san.rr.com)

thook

nice to see some more discussion going on here. despite the fact my plan kinda fell through, it's still a fascinating topic for me.

yeah, the deal on acquiring some 7spd AS barcons dead ended, so i said eff it and got some suntour ratcheting ones off ebay for $35 in really nice shape. they say "raleigh" on the lever boots, but i'll probably live...hehe. anyway, kind of disappointing, but i figure atleast with these raleigh shifters i can use any of the freewheels i have including a pro compe (came original on the univega) and an identically geared shimano FW....both 14-32 5spd. iow's, i have several FW's for the long haul on my univega and can half step any one of them with the variety of chainrings i have at my disposal.... thus satisfying my romance with vintage ways .

re: downtube shifters....lovely equipment to look at and all (symmetrics are beauty), but i got to where reaching down while trying to safely steer with one hand and trying to shift with the other while hauling butt on bumpy country/gravel roads was not a comfortable situation. always hitting the right gear was super challenging sometimes, too.

the raleigh units are on the way. once i get'em on and the rest of the parts swapping done i want to do on this, i'll snap a couple of pics should anyone like bike pRon as much as i ....

thook

i had an opportunity for a cyclone 7k RD, but it was a shortcage and wasn't confident i'd be able to modify to long cage with what spare RD's i have. so, i blew that off

i did read about the 4 prong FW's being the identifying factor on AP FW's on the yellow jersey link kindly provided on page 1. that issue's kinda moot for me now, though. i still wouldn't mind finding a wide range 6spd FW at some point. perhaps play with some custom gears!