Phantoj

Sorry, I don't subscribe to that lame rag...

austinspinner

Sorry phantoj, drafting is real and it works like it says on the tin.

Spend an hour on google or the local library and you should be able to assemble quite the portfolio of PEER REVIEWED research from notable journals, as well as many popular science articles on the subject.

Does group riding contain an element of placebo effect as well for speed increases, of course it does.

Phantoj

Okay, I will admit it... I am teasing.




I need to go to bed... when I get sleep-deprived, this sort of absurd stuff strikes me as funny.

Furthermore, I guess I thought it was pretty rediculous that Mythbusters would have even produced a segment attempting to debunk drafting. (Also, I thought the way they did it had some major lamenesses. I would have liked to see some guy doing 50 mph on a road bike behind a semi or them using a Powertap to actually quantify the energy saved by drafting. And what was the deal with the armor suit for the guy riding at 20 mph?) I just intended to sort of sarcastically point out the article, but then got drawn into inventing a bunch of pseudoscientific hand-waving to support my argument. Trolling is hard.

austinspinner

Quit messing with us at 2A.M.!!!

krazyderek

Sounds just like nova scotia, it's nothing but rolling terrain, and it's ALWAYS windy, sometime's well get lucky on the group rides and we'll have headwind on the way out and the way back cause the wind will shift during the ride.

Up to 80% of your energy on the bike goes towards overcoming wind/air resistance. You can easily save 20-30% of your energy in a good pack, even if it's only 5 or 6 riders you can still save. I've confirmed this fact with a power meter where on the same road i'll have to push ~330watts for 4 or 5 minutes doing a pull, then at the same speed, i'll be doing ~260watts, or often less, sitting at the back.

Solo i don't bother looking at speed, it'll just depress you. In groups though, it helps keep everyone motivated when that 40km/h carrot is dangling out front.

dekindy

Anybody that says that there is no drafting effect has never ridden a bicycle solo and then in a paceline and compared the difference, which you notice immediately. You don't even have to ride wheel to wheel to get a benefit, although the closer the better.

There is defintiely a group benefit also. It is much easier to maintain a pace just by having others around. Try it when someone passes you. Maintaining a faster pace and keeping up magically becomes easier. Kind of like the fat guy that passed me on my first and only running 10K. All of a sudden I did not feel as bad and speeded up.

If I want to go faster I prefer to ride solo because it is better training and you are fully aware of your individual capability. Just practice drafting enough to get good at it so you can use it when you really need it.

Having said that I have not had a lot of experience in very strong winds. But I have noticed in 20+ mph winds unless I am heading directly into the wind it is difficult for me to find a spot that gives me some benefit even when other riders around say they are getting a benefit. I would like to see a study with various sized riders (especially with a smaller, lighter rider in front) and a wide spectrum of wind speeds that measures benefit.

In the summertime when it is hot, I can really feel the temperature difference. I prefer cooling wind versus the draft that makes pedaling easier. I feel like I am baking if I am drafting.

dekindy

I disagree slightly with the first statement and agree wholeheartedly with the second.

I could not keep up with a paceline that was that much better than my current ability unless you do not lead and there are no hills.

Leading in a group that is going that much faster than your current ability completely drains you unless the other riders don't mind you doing a short pull, which many don't. Strong riders only need a short break in the draft to recover and they can go full speed again.

Winds and hills really separate the stronger from the weaker riders. Once you hit a difficult hill and don't make the regroup after the top you will get dropped like a rock.

I frequently refrain from drafting because the effort required with a really strong group takes every bit of energy you have and you don't have the strength to make the maneuvers to position yourself safely. And you are totally unawareof what is going on around you so you don't watch the other riders, look ahead for bad spots in the road and dogs, anticipate terrain and needed shifts, etc.

SSP

You misspelled "just being a d*ck".

dangerman

do you really believe everything you see on TV?

cccorlew

I almost never ride with folks. Today I went out with a large group and was waiting to get rolling when I looke down a my speedo and noticed it read "22"
I wasn't even working. I never ride that fast alone. I'm more of a 16-17 mph cruiser.
So, as we all know, it really makes a difference.

SkyeC

One advantage of being short and riding a small frame is I can really tuck in behind people especially when they're tall and riding big frames... I'm sure not they get much benefit from falling in behind me, though!

Phantoj

I guess.

But don't you think the absurdity of arguing that drafting is a myth is sort of humorous?



Remember, Mythbusters -- in their final analysis -- only decided that the seemingly far-fetched notion of drafting was "plausible"... they didn't say "confirmed" or "real".

skinnyone

The faster you go, the better drafting helps.. The slipstream envelope that a rider produces is directly proportional to the speed that you ride at right?.. When you go uphill you are going slow and hence it has very little effect on you.. Ever watched a car race?. Seen a guy get into the slipstream of a car in front and sling shot him across? Its the same principle albeit at slower speeds..

The mythbusters episode was for a car drafting a semi. It wasn't for two bicyclists drafting each other..

musician

drafting in a group -- yes, this is possible

drafting solo -- no, this is impossible

SSP

I drafted a gravel truck on my morning commute a few months back...before I knew it, I was going 35 mph on a flat road, about 5 feet behind those big rear wheels. Kinda stupid, but fun!

ratebeer

Post of the day.

asgelle

True (or better it depends on how you define the envelope). The length of the wake is proportional to speed, though not linearly.

False. The reduction in drag is the same at 6 mph as it is at 60. The difference is drag has a much smaller contribution to the total power needed at 6 mph as is has at 60. (and you should be very careful comparing race cars with 1-2 m^2 frontal area moving ~100-200 mph with cyclists with 0.2-0.5 m^2 area at ~6-60 mph.)

skinnyone

Agreed on 1.. And 2 makes sense but..assuming that the envelope approximately has a tear drop shape(very rough approximation), then the total volume of the slipstream is smaller and the tail is shorter going uphill at 6mph right?. Wouldn't that mean that some point you have to be much closer than a few inches away from the riders wheel to get decent reduction in drag?

I was just trying to come up with a more general colloquial example for drafting and I agree its a stretch to compare a car to a cyclist..

asgelle

Even at 6 mph, the wake is several bike lengths long. Now if someone rode at 6 inches an hour, that would be a different story, but that isn't a realistic cycling speed. At reasonable cycling speeds, there's no dependence on drag reduction from speed.

'nother

When I read your first response I chuckled. When I read all of the responses to that, I started to think that maybe humor was a myth.

Hey, it's plausible.

Camilo

Ok, I haven't seen the show but, how do you explain that when I'm riding with a friend down a moderate hill, say at 20-25 mph, he's pedaling like hell and I'm coasting and have to touch my brakes occasionally to keep from riding up on him? Are my wheels and hubs simply responding th the stimulus of being behind? Sort of like a sled dog team chasing the team in front?

And no, it's not the quality of the wheels, aero-ness or other factor. He is much more aero (more flexible, gets lower), has much better bike and wheels, and his overall rig coasts better than me as evidenced by him gaining on me whenever we coast fast down hill, but with a large gap. I follow always because he simply coasts faster.

ericgu

I love mythbusters but they aren't really experts in cycling or exercise physiology.

All you need to do is ride a flat course behind 3 or 4 guys who are switching off and track your heart rate. It's a huge effect.

ericgu

Whether you could hang depends on a number of factors.

If you can be second or third wheel and the terrain is dead flat, then it's easy to hang with the group.

As the terrain gets rolling, whenever you hit an uphill, the amount of effort you have to put out goes up considerably.

And, as you get farther back in the group (or the group isn't as skilled), every tiny change in speed at the front gets magnified, and you find yourself having to sprint to get back on a wheel at times.

And, obviously, if you take a turn at the front - and you *should* take a turn at the front, even if it's only 15 seconds - you put out a ton of effort during the time you're at the front.

So, to summarize, riding in a paceline can reduce your overall effort considerably *but* you have to be able to deal with short intense efforts and be able to recover from them quickly. If you aren't able to do this, you'll be off the back quickly.