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Questions:
Who knows of 1&1/8 straight steerer 40mm rake forks for 26 inch (559's) wheels and disk brakes?
Can anyone confirm my suspicion that heavily loaded rear panniers lightens the front in their experience?
Moving the rear axle rearward was a smart move?
Any experienced touring riders or frame builders have any further suggestions or experience?

Background: I am building a touring bike in the form of a heavily modified gas pipe piece of Americana from the 70's. The frame I am modifying originated with 457mm chainstays, 27x1 inch wheels and 70 degree head and seat tube angles and had 50.8mm of rake. This yielded a trail of 71mm from the OEM.

For my wife's bike of the same make/model I converted to 700c, and installed forks with a 43mm rake. This shortened the front center 8 mm & yielded a trail of 78mm. Furthermore a 0 offset seatpost was installed bringing the rider 25mm forward.
The combined effect of shortening the front center and adding weight to the front wheel produced a very stable bike at speed.
55 kph is indeed borderline boring; Exactly what you'd want for going down mountain passes.

Given this experience, and success, I am modifying bike number 2. With a focus on touring. I plan on doing much the same thing as above but with disc forks and 26 inch wheels. To this end, I have made the appropriate changes to the head tube to accept 9/8 straight steerer to give me access to the wide world of parts commonly available for the last 2 decades. To accomplish the same 78mm of trail, I estimate I would need disc forks with 40mm of offset. I have been satisfied with Avid BB7's and a 180mm disc. I plan on using this combination again.
Question: who knows of 1&1/8 straight steerer 40mm rake forks for 26 inch (559's) wheels and disk brakes?

In looking at all the pics of loaded tour bikes, the rack and panniers seems to weight either on, or behind the rear wheel. Moving the CG back seems a bad idea. So, the decision was made to move the rear drop outs. Parts are being cut by water-jet as I write. When done the chain-stays will have been extended to 508mm, the stays will have been properly reinforced and spread to 132.5 to accept commonly available wheel sets, but the mount points for the racks have remained in place for usual rack placement. Loading on-top-of/in-front-of the rear axle seems like it would at worst be neutral, and at best improve cg placement with load over conventional.
Can anyone confirm my suspicion that heavily loaded rear panniers lightens the front? Moving the rear axle rearward was a smart move?

Switching from 700Cx25 to 26x1.25-1.375 would lower the whole bike 1.1 inches but would make for a standard 50/34 crank-set and Ultegra 11/40 gear combo 20.6-110 gear inches, as opposed to 700C's 23-121.5 gear inches and would thus be about 10% easier when fully loaded.
Any experienced touring riders or frame builders have any further suggestions or experience?

Andrew R Stewart 

I doubt you'll find a premade fork with the combo of specs you list. One could easily get all but the rake spec from a repair grade fork and then remove what will likely be the extra rake they typically come with.


As long as you like the handling feel of so much trail more power to you. But 78mm of trail is considered to be a LOT. My own touring bikes tend to have about 15-20% less trail.


Don't know where you've been looking for shots of loaded touring bikes but many will also use front panniers on a low mounted rack. In fact i'd say this is considered to be the standard road self contained touring set up. front low rider panniers and rear panniers on standard rear racks.


Some of the goal with long chain stays is for weight balance WRT the front wheel's weight (and front panniers help here, far more than a couple more inches of chain stay). But some of the goal is heel clearance with the rear panniers (which is why some larger rear panniers have their lower front facing corners cut back). Some of the goal is for less chain angle when using wide range gearing/triple cranks. Some of the goal is to relax the handling (although steering geometry is FAR more the issue here).


As to your proposed gearing- Whatever works for you. I prefer a triple crank and parts that are more commonly available then the latest stuff. The 24/34/44 rings and the 11/34 rear cogs provide about a 10% lower gear then your set up does, uses far more easily replaced parts and I never have had a need for a gear larger then about 90 inches (and if I could get a 13/34 cog set I would). I also prefer wider chains and cog plates then the latest stuff have. I run a 9 speed cog set on my tour bikes. My front shifter is not indexed (no road bike I have has an indexed front shifter). But gearing is a very personal choice. I have just found that I always wanted a lower gear then what I was using after a couple of hours on the same hill (or mountain pass). Have you done any touring yet?


Here's a link to a Flicker album of my latest touring bikes. Some of the details are similar to your plans, some are very different. Andy.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/731955...57658194060433

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As far as the forks, I kind of figured as much. Have 3 requirements, pick 2 kind of a thing…Maybe shop around the local custom shops or just be happy with a different rake. OEM was trail of 71, after all. A 48 rake would get me almost back to OEM. Maybe I should be less rigid in my search requirements.


If it weren't for my wife's bike, I may never have known any better. I've never felt more stable at speed. While coming down Mission Ridge last summer, I got a case of the wobbles. (I didn't panic, I weighted the front and relaxed and things worked out fine) My Cervelo had carbon rims and I was deliberately sitting up to catch air to keep some speed and thus rim heating out of the equation. On my Scattante I've never felt the "wobbles" like I did on my Cervelo, and the difference is the Scat has the bars 1/4 inch lower, meaning more weight on the front. That nth much makes the difference. Bein's that loaded panniers shift the weight rear, I'd like to make sure that the "wobbles" never happen again.


I did notice they all had front low riders. I figured that adding another requirement to my quest for dream forks would have slashed the lot. Surely a longer rake to quicken the handling, and then the extra weight to dampen the response is a viable plan, but I had never considered front loading. Front racks and whatnot just seemed like extra expense and effort and rider fatigue with an even rarer parts selection. But then again, I don't actually know. Does all that weight up front really make things handle differently when laden or unladen? Does it noticeably affect handling when either front OR rear is loaded? My goal is to have a bike that handles more or less the same no matter how it's loaded for an afternoon recreational to the coffee shop or a weekend trip to the National Park.


I sort of figured that with out the weight up front, the placement of the weight over the rear was of greater importance than would otherwise be given. I did a bunch of looking at various bikes and concluded that the chain stays of dedicated touring bikes are longer than average, but didn't seem like they'd be long enough to actually get behind the load. (read: ALL the weight looks like it is only on the rear wheel and that seems like it would make for a very different bike on different days.) With 18 inch stays I can't imagine that heel clearance would be an issue, but the weight being over or behind the rear axle seems like it would effect things in a negative way, so shotgunning the axle rearward to 20 inches seemed like a good idea at the time. Given the forces involved, I didn't want to go much further lest I need to get into seat stay replacement/lengthening too. In looking at your photo album, your rear wheel is quite a bit back. Do you think it was a good move?


I'll give a triple some thought. I haven't done any touring yet, but have had my share of mountain passes for quite a bit last summer. Washington Pass (up and down), Blewett Pass (over and back), High Pass Challenge (Mount St. Helens out and back), Mt Baker twice, Hurricane Ridge and Mission Ridge were all done last summer. I quickly learned that 36/25 was terrible, 34/28 was good, and 34/32 was better for when you really needed it. Around the innerwebz I kept hearing 20-25 gear inches is good for touring and the Shimano 11 speed would do that, but as you say, a triple set up with a fat chain and conventional mountain bike gearing may be better in the durability/replacibility department. I'll give this some thought as nothing besides the axle and the head tube is set in stone yet.

Thanks for the reply.

Andrew R Stewart 

Low rider racks can and are attached to forks with clamping hardware around the fork blades all the time, no need for specific bosses. But a disk brake will steal space so some mods of disk specific rack will likely be needed. I strongly suggest you consider a front pannier system. In fact many minimize rear panniers and shift as much weight to the front. This is but one aspect of gaining your own experience. You can't find your preference on line.


I was told by a inside the industry guy years ago that only some areas of CA and upstate NY (as in the Finger Lakes) were bemoaning the loss of triple cranks from the new bike specs. That and the inability for many riders to learn how to shift properly combine to make wide range doubles the WAY. So then it's left up to the marketing departments to make this WAY the one that buyers will take as being the better WAY. I take this attitude as a load of BS and sad that we older riders who learned to shift properly decades ago end up being slighted.


As to shimmy at speed- The differences between your two bikes is FAR more then just the handle bar/seat relationship. Please don't see a difference and stop your discovery at that one difference. Shimmy is still a very miss understood effect and it involves a vast number of elements including the rider themselves.


Years ago I read of an older couple that was planning to tour the world on their tandem. She died before the trip and he decided to do the tour on the tandem anyway. He fabbed a rack which straddled the stoker's top tube, effectively ending up with the weight well ahead of the rear axle. I always thought this was a great idea. But note that I haven't built a bike like that (and there's no reason why I couldn't do so but personal choice).


So I'll return to my question for you: have you toured yet? Yes, I know that you answered already but the actual exposure/discovery of what you need in a camping load, in a loaded bike is yet to be really known. I've self contained a few thousand miles since 1973 (and supported toured more as well). I've had a half dozen bikes equipped as tourers (4 of my own making) and my find with each bike a further understanding of what I want and what I will do differently next time. Most of the evolution is of rather small differences but spending hours on a bike day after day those small details add up to major pluses. There's no way my current touring bikes could have been designed (by me) the way that they are back in 1978 when I first started to make frames and my touring grew more frequent. So I strongly suggest that you do what you think now is the right way but understand that with keeping your eyes open you will view you choices as not quite the way after you gain actual touring experiences.


I hope you have a lot of fun in both the touring as well as the thinking. Andy.

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Of course, but I only mention it because sitting side by side they are identical in appearance and measurement. Both have 16 inch stays, same bottom bracket height, same trail, same rake, same top tube length, zero offset seat post. Near as I can figure, the Scat has a 74 degree seat tube, a little lower bars, is just heavier overall, and all that combined weights the front wheel more. (As close as I can measure, of course) The Cervelo is harder on the sit bones. Maybe it was coincidence that the 2 bikes that fit me happen to have nearly identical geometry. In any case, "the wobbles' is something I am trying to take great care to avoid.

I didn't know that they made clamp-on racks. Up until now, I thought they needed attachment bosses. When I actually get far enough on this project to start packing, I'll take it under advisement. I imagine there is no end to the refinement when you actually start putting something into practice. No, I have never gone on tour.

You say people actually try to move weight up front? Now that is interesting...

I'll get some frame pics up when I have something picture worthy. I estimate pics in a day or 2 for the head tube work, and a week or so for the dropouts. Maybe a month or so on the other braze on type stuff.

Andrew R Stewart 

Even frames bikes with identical geometry and components but with differing frame tubing/materials will behave differently WRT shimmy. As shimmy seems to be a harmonic oscillation, frame and component (like wheel/tire) stiffness and rider mass and his stiffness contribute. A rider's stiffness/damping will change from day to mile.


Good luck with your work. Andy.

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For both the top and bottom of the headtube, 1/4 inch of the frame was cut out, 3/8 inch put back.
The "collars" were spun on a lathe and notched out for the adjoining tubes. Fit so good, they almost didn't need welding. They were then faced for a standard 1&1/8 straight steerer and ought to be 100% compatible with modern forks.

Top:
headtube upper cup by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr


Bottom:
headtube lower cup by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr


Whole head tube:
headtube overall by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

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It may not seem like much, but a clearance bin find from the local Performance Bike, with the head cut off and welded to a 13/16 inch extruded aluminum rod from eBay. No steel post with incompatible clamp for me!

Seatpost weld job 1974 Varsity by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

fietsbob

IDK the rake But Tout Terrain of Germany makes a very nice Disc brake fork.
to adapt to the differing forces on the 2 sides The left blade tubing diameter is Larger than the right.

Its long bladed so their frames can use a suspension Fork, and so a 700c touring wheel or a 29" will fit.

See Peter White Cycles He nailed down the US Import of them.

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So the dropouts got back from water jet and some brazing got done today!

Up next is moving the brake brace and a few braze-ons, then after that cutting out the kick stand and installing a fancy chain stay brace.

With the wheel moved, it occurred to me there'll be room for a water bottle holder behind the seat tube. I plan on filling it with tools, tubes, patch kit, miscellaneous & etc…Probably the only water tight storage and keeping just that much more out of frame bags is so much the better.

I've decided that in total there'll be 4 water bottle cages. The one behind the seat tube I just mentioned, a 1&1/2 liter cage in front, underneath the down tube https://www.topeak.com/global/en/pro...odula--cage-xl and 2 in the usual location. I tend to be a sweat-er, burning through 140 ounces in a century on hot days is pretty common for me. 98 ounces of dedicated water capacity and an additional tool bottle for reserve capacity if I choose seems like a good idea. I'd like to leave the camel back at home.
Collin Haulin' by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

A little heat:
torch by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

Glowey:
dropout brazing. (very hot) by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

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As I was typing up the last post, Amazon saw fit to deliver this!

M9000 derailleur by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

Look at the size of this thing! It's the new Shimano XTR9000 SGS (RD-M9000-SGS)
It has a 45 tooth capacity and it's huge!

For the rest of the drive train: I've decided I'm going to mate it with the Jtek Shiftmate #8 (that also arrived from SJS today), and an 11-40 tooth XT M-8000 11 speed cassette. Yesterday a Deore 28-40 chainring set arrived and I R&R'd the large chaing ring in favor of a 44 tooth ring from LX-T671 triple crankset.

I'll be at the 45 tooth capacity of this bad boy and have a range of 19.1 to 109 gear inches with 700X35 tires.
Seems good for touring, yeah?

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Found some FORKS! It turns out that Wound Up has just about anything custom you could ever want. I ended up with their Road X forks. https://woundupcomposites.com/road-x-forks/road-x/ in 370 axle to crown and 45 rake, no logo, with shiny metal bits and eyelets. They cost about 3x what I wanted and about 2x what I was willing to spend. I'm telling myself a well timed performance bonus from work means I'm spending someone else's money.

I looked up the Tout Terrain, but just couldn't figure out how to get a fork minus the rest of a bike. Thank you for the suggestion though.

For the front, I've decided on a TRP Spyre caliper and 180mm IceTech disk (arriving today)
For the rear, R+E Cycles special patented canti brakes. (now in hand)

Yesterday, I spent a bunch of time with a 6oz per gallon Lye solution and some chromium phosphate polishing up some chain rings, (Shimano really anodizes pretty hard) and a (lot) of time with sand paper working the black paint off the Deore crank arms. There is still some work to do on the various bits, but it's hard to find anything from anywhere that's both new and *not* black.

Wheels are in the works, I can get by with a spare I have in the rear, but I didn't have any centerlock fronts in the garage, so one is getting laced up and will be ready in a week. Velocity A23's in a 28 & 32 hole pattern and Shimano hub. Hope RS4's and DT240's/350's are just stupid expensive and save in the range of 0 grams compared to Shimano at 1/6 the price. Roadside serviceability of ball and cone all the way!

Oh, and Prizmatic Illusion Lime is being applied by Seattle powdercoat this week.
Prismatic Illusion Lime by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

So all, I guess things are coming together, I'll get actual pics edited in soon.
Dropout extension & canti studs by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

chainstay/seatstay braces by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

Cablestops/waterbottle boss by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr
Aaron

fietsbob

Oh I See You are working on a Schwinn Varsity frame, never mind.

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What's wrong with a Varsity? The frame is 7.6 pounds. About 2.5 pounds more than an average Bike store aluminum bike. Thats a 2 full water bottles disadvantage compared to a modern $600 equivalent. A whole Schwinn Varsity NEW in 1970, is still 90% the weight of a Big Box store bike today. They ride nice, track well, and have a lively feel compared to the harsh buzz and stifness of aluminium.

The thing that kills them is the component weight. In that regard, yeah, they got a bad rap, but apples to apples both a Varsity with modern components and a modern bike at an equivalent (inflation adjusted) price point you'd be hard pressed to find a more comfortable ride.

Everything is a race bike now...even the Walmart ones for 6 year olds have flame stickers and checkerd flags.

What's wrong with a recreational touring bike engineered for comfort?
This kind of bike is the bread and butter of every frame build shop I've ever walked in to.

I would've thought that if anywhere would think frame modification would be cool, this would be the place.

unterhausen

I don't know about cool, but you are going to be the one of the elite few with a wound up fork on a Varsity. I like this thread, don't let one critic slow you down.

fietsbob

Guess its more tolerant to the Amateur welding skills, that would burn up a lightweight tube set..

In 1975 I used Columbus Aelle, another brazing together a 1st frame, project, while friends burned holes in 531.


I started with a tubeset, lugs, dropouts & a BB shell, learned torch finesse in Jewelry making classes.

Another builder in town had built a tube miter cutting machine that was pedal powered, I 'had' to use.

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At the powder coater. This pic is as of just a few minutes ago. Looks AMAZING! With the sun on it, ot looks as deep as the ocean!

Fresh from Powdercoat by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

unterhausen

that's a really nice color, and the frame looks really good.

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44-28 XT M-785 Crankset by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

Deore XT Hollowtech II crank arms with 28 & 44 tooth aluminum chain rings from different 64/104 BCD Shimano product lines. Both are type AJ, so I don't see any problems. The crank arms were painted with something really tough. After much effort stripper and abrasive was the only solution there. The rings were black anodized and after an alkaline bath, the big ring accepted the new anodizing a little more readily than anticipated. 60 seconds was all it took. That's half the time and twice the result of normal. I'll live with the gold tinge. The crank arms and the small ring were the intended result.

BTW: Thanks!

duanedr 

That bike will certainly stick out! If I see you around the Seattle area, I will try to chase you down to say hello!

I will still probably ask you 'why start with a Varsity and then add a WO fork'?!?!

Duane
PS - My first (scrambler fastback 5sp), and favorite bikes (Schwinn Sting BMX in early 80s when it was 'current school' & '95 homegrown Factory XT) were Schwinn's. I still wouldn't have started this project with a Varsity! :-) **

** that's a smiley face posted all in good fun. Great project!

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There really isn't any single "good" reason. I guess some of it is because I can, some of it is originality, some might be improving a thing that is undervalued/under-appreciated. Some of it might be giving a thing a new lease on life with all the advances in modern technology.

Why do people spend big $ on old cars? A need to build or create? To nurture?

In short, I really don't know why I started with a Varsity.

It was cheap to get started. I'll stick with that! Ha!

duanedr 

If it's a bike and makes someone happy, I'm all for it!

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It's been a while with not much to report, but things have been moving along.

I got the Ultegra 6800 derailleur all polished up. And a bushing made.
Polished derailleur & bushing by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

And some wheels built. Velocity A23's
Valocity A23 disc by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

The bottom bracket adapter polished and installed. The BB60 road bottom bracket with 3 spacers to widen it up to 73mm, and HollowTech Deore crank. I would like to have had the silver XT bottom bracket, but believe it or not it was too skinny on account of being designed for the same Q-factor on a wider shell. It would've needed a dangerous amount of spacers to work with the 68mm road. Instead of spacers, the external road bearings are wider.
Truvative American to BSA adapter by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

The Deore XT crank has a mix and match of double and triple chain rings in order to get the 28/44 16 tooth split I wanted. The gap between the rings was too great and the chain wouldn't reliably engage; It would sometimes freewheel as it got caught between the rings. A 1.2mm spacer to move the big ring inboard closed the gap between the rings and is now consistent with 11 speed chain ring specs.
Chainring spacer by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

The back half of the bike with a 32 hole Velocity A23, PowerTap hub, an 11-40 tooth Deore cassette, the M9-bazillion-plus-shadow-ninja-warrior derailleur, and HG-X11 chain that needed about 5 extra inches from a second chain to be long enough to work. Water bottle cages and R&E Big Squeeze attached new this morning. All drive train is missing is cables.
Wall hang status by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

Terry carbon rail saddle from the local co-op and seat post clamp courtesy of Porkchop BMX. It's probably the only Varsity with carbon rails in existence. Good.
Seatpost with Leather Terry carbon rail saddle by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

R&E Big Squeeze brakes. Yep, they only come in black. I polished these up too.
Rodriguez Big Squeeze brakes by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

If my damn forks will ever arrive, I'll be in business. There's a back story here. For the same price as the Road X, I could get Team X Cyclocross forks with 395 axle to crown, 47 rake, and perhaps most important, clearance for 32c tires and fenders. So, since production hadn't yet started I phoned AVT and did a change order. Their customer service is awesome. Wound-Up's customer service is awesome. They made a few phone calls to each other, and now it's a waiting game.

I feel I've gone back a bit in the conservative rake/trail direction from my original thoughts thanks to discussion further up this thread. So to you guys, I say thank you.

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The made in the USA fork finally arrived. I had to buy steerer cutting tool to get it installed. I promptly installed the brakes,, bars, spacers, cables, etc...and managed to get it out for a ride with the wife down to the local Chinese restaurant Saturday evening.

And though Saturdays 3 mile ride to Kung Pao and General Tso was a raging success, Sundays 40 miler did need an adjustment or 2.
The next few posts are pics from Yesterdays ride.
Front left 1974 Varsity by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr

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Non-drive side 1974 Varsity by Richard Mozzarella, on Flickr