SB1501

Hi all, I've posted a bit lately and always been keen on the idea of one day replacing my car with a bike entirely. To me, the only way to do this (covering all the days and moods and motivations I go through) would be with an electric bike to guarantee I can make it up those hills and drag myself along on the days I need it in a world where the car was no longer an option.

I was looking at some nice electric bikes from Gazelle who tend to know a thing or two about life with bikes and a used Giant e-bike that my local bike shop has used for £850. The ones I'd actually buy all come with a Bosch mid-drive system. But they are huge huge investments. If they work, it's totally justifiable. If not, it's a massive sunk cost for me.

One of the big name stores in the UK, Halfords, lets you trial an e-bike for 6 hours - totally free. I thought it'd be a no brainer to try. Obviously, they don't stock the big brands I'd actually go for, although they do stock some of their own label brands with Bosch systems. I didn't get to choose one of those for my trial, what they gave me on Saturday was the below:
Carrera Vengeance E Mens Electric Mountain Bike 2.0 - 18" | Halfords UK

It appears to be a no name generic motor / controller setup. 25-40 miles, which surprisingly was nearly done by the end of my trial. It looks like they sell the same bike, without the motor, for £385 - fairly bargain basement. I'm not sure that this motor and battery setup justifies nearly £1,000 more... It's also a fairly heavy, relatively fat tire bike. Nevertheless - it's an e-bike, it's some assistance, it's free and why not give it a try?! That's what I did on Saturday.

How the trial went...
Firstly I took it from that store to a nearby supermarket I frequent. 6 minutes. Not bad, the boost, set to 'Tour' was a pleasant lift. This is one heavy bike. But it felt manageable, after that initial push, it gets going and isn't heavy feeling at all. I then went on to my girlfriend's house, through an urban park mostly gradually downhill, 7 minutes. Also not too bad. From there I went to my workplace, took 15 minutes. Also good, I kept a steady speed. That was downhill / flat. From work I did a longer route, to my own home. About 7 miles all in all, with the last 1.7 miles being on a road with heavy traffic (a main road from Dublin to my city) - a part of the cycle I dread / hate and will often drive to pass when I go on leisure cycles. That took 30 minutes. I tried the 'Sport' and 'Turbo' mode here, thinking it would boost me along at the maximum 14 mph speed with the bare minimum of effort. I was also feeling a bit tired at this stage and my butt a bit sore from the seat that I'm not used to / probably isn't a fit to me.

It was then that the disappointment began. 'Sport'/'Tour' felt like it did nothing at all. Eventually I spent time going between them to try and feel the difference. It was just non existent. No noticeable kick-in faster, no speed increase, no feeling of more assist per my effort. I wrote it off as just 'getting used to the assist' in the moment. I quickly turned off the system to find that the bike was a solid metric TONNE to move without it, so it was / must have been doing something.
I was sweating and putting in effort. My legs were reaching that point where they'd had enough and could only just keep moving along slowly if at all. I was only around 15 miles cycled at this point, but for me that's on the higher end. I expect that on my Giant Escape if I'm out all day or pushing myself, I didn't expect it at all with the e-bike.

On the way back to the store, there was all of the uphills I enjoyed on the outward ride. First one, on Turbo mode, again very little assistance (feeling wise). Of course, it was doing something, but I wasn't feeling any ease at all. It was just like my Giant Escape regular bike. Then later on, one last long / large road with a cyclepath alongside taking me back to the store, and I went slower than I ever would up it on my Giant.

i really, really was not having a pleasant time by the end of it. I was sweating buckets. I was struggling to do more than just slowly tick along. It's not what I expected from an e-bike.

What was the problem?
Is it that this was such a heavy bike that the system is intended to just make it a little easier than without?
Was it because it has a cheap / lousy system?
Was the system malfunctioning?
Was it my expectations? (videos often say you still get the same exercise on an e-bike, maybe that exercise is the sweat inducing kind?)

Realistically, I'd like to know if any of you have used a system similar to this, or a bike similar to this, along with the more expensive Bosch drive systems or brand / frames I'm considering such as the Gazelle bike - how does it compare in the real world?

I thought that'd be the nail in the coffin for my cars future, but it really ruled out and stamped out my commute by bike option to be honest - and I'm not happy to say that :-(

Kai Winters

Overcoming the weight of the bike puts a large strain on the system which will likely require more human assistance.
Inexpensive/cheap ebikes often are one and done parts builds meaning trying to get repair and replacement parts hit or miss and often miss...the bike company doesn't stock parts only built bikes, they often don't uphold warranties so the buyer is out of luck.
A good ebike is quite nice...a cheap ebike becomes a lawn ornament sooner than later.

Jeff Neese

Or they become deadly incendiary devices. Another ebike fire claimed 4 more lives in NYC just a few days ago.

Pop N Wood

I don't think it is the price or even brand name of the e assist. From what you are saying the bike just didn't have enough grunt for you.

I've read a lot of advice on ebikes. One on line retailer said when most people buy their second ebike they tend to gravitate towards one around 1200 watts.

I have a Bafang middrive on an old mountain bike frame. The bike is unrestricting on speed and power. 52V battery with a 30 amp limit, so in theory 1800 watt battery draw. Output power is much less. After the conversion the bike weighs about 20 kg. I weigh 100 kg. Standard 1 1/4 wide tires. The bike can run as fast as 38 mph (63 km/hr?). It flies up hill, has a thumb throttle for starting out at stop lights or quick boost to get up hill or match the flow of traffic. Can pop wheelies if I'm not careful with the throttle.

The nice thing about a high power ebike is one can lower the assist and see what it is like to drive a lower powered bike. For just cruising 100-200 watts is fine. But that extra kick is really appreciated when you want to get somewhere, are running late for work, need to quickly get off a busy street, a storm is rolling in, or have a knee acting up.

Europeans have too many restrictions. You are better off getting a Bafang conversion kit on an old bike, that way you can set the power limits and max assist speeds.

tds101 

Find out the details of what actually occurred before trying to scare people off. The fire was caused by improper charging of batteries. There were extension cords everywhere. It had nothing to do with the batteries themselves.

Jeff Neese

Whatever the case, the combination of cheap Chinese batteries and chargers, coupled with people not realizing the risks and using unsafe charging practices, is causing fires. Cheap drone batteries catch fire too, and don't forget about the smartphone fires that were a problem for a while. Quality really does matter and there is a wide variance between different batteries and chargers.

adlai

It's a cheap and lousy system.

My first ebike conversation was with a hub motor and a hacked on battery like that. That sort of setup leave the bicycles kind of top-heavy and ironically any assist that you get out of it is mitigated by how tired you feel balancing the bike because of the weight.

Currently I use a vvolt proxima. Also the Bull Grinder ebikes have caught my eye. One thing you'll notice right off with more modern designs is that the battery is integrated in with the downtube. Some even have it removed from the bottom where all the mud can get in the joint. This is to lower the center of gravity and it is way more than can be done with a bottle mount battery.

I also don't think a low-end mountain bike shifting system is the best idea for an ebike. The best system for ebikes IMO is a belt drive and IGH hub with a mid drive setup.

linberl

I went car free 5 years ago with an e-bike. Now due to medical issues, I am still car free but with an e-recumbent trike. since you are in Europe, I would suggest checking to see if Stromer is still leasing their bikes and they are available where you are. I highly recommend - before you get rid of your car - that you live "as if" you were car free for a few months. If you can lease a Stromer (which is a fantastic e bike) you can see whether it fits in your life adequately. Once you know it will, then you will be a lot more willing to spend what you need to get an e-bike that is going to provide longevity, reliability, and range. The initial outlay may seem high but you will know you have eliminated car insurance, registration, costly maintenance, fuel, etc., so you will be more comfortable buying a top line e-bike. Don't know the theft situation where you live but it would also give you time to figure out how to keep an e-bike secure as well. Stromer e-bike financing: privately or professionally (stromerbike.com). I parked my car for 6 months (except to keep the battery up) and that gave me the confidence I needed to go car free knowing it had worked for every situation, or that I had figured out alternatives. I also learned what features I needed and didn't need in my final purchase. Good luck!

TmMc

I would suggest trying a mid-drive bike before giving up. That Giant looks more promising if It has a Yamaha-made mid-drive motor. As said the generic Chinese-made ebikes are not the best, and the demonstrator that you tried may have already been “well used”.

I have 3 mid-drive Bosch-motored ebikes, each bought as low-mileage used bikes, each for less than half of the original prices. The centered weight of mid-drive bikes feels more natural. The latest is an 8-year-old Haibike RX29 with 29” wheels. It is a great gravel bike, with the larger wheels it rolls well. The Class 1 20mph cutoff is a little frustrating; on the street I’ll hit that limit too easily. The second is a Haibike Urban S 5.0, Class 3 for up to 28mph assist. REALLY fun bike, no problems with assist. The third is a Haibike AllMtn 8.0. Really capable dirt bike. The full suspension takes some getting used to, a little high-tech for me since I grew up with no-suspension clunkers. I have a number of Bosch Powerpack batteries in both 400Wh and 500Wh capacities; these are interchangeable for each bike.

Each of these were not abused by previous owners (other than that beach cruiser set-up being just plain weird). Each one’s motors, controls and batteries were in good shape, no weird noises, assist settings work well. If bought new each of these would have been too much money (new Haibikes cost WAY too much), but I was lucky to find good used examples at more reasonable costs.

unterhausen

The difference between the cheapest systems and an expensive system is pretty big, I think. I tried out a kona ecoco (shimano steps) and I think it's pretty responsive and very helpful. The problem with that bike for me is that it's best as a bike recreation, and I want a bike to haul stuff with. It doesn't even have rear rack mounts. If you were going low-end, a conversion probably would be better.

Smaug1

Over on your side of the pond, eBikes are limited to 250 W and 25 kph (15.5 mph). 250 W on a rear hub motor on a heavy bike is not a lot.

I think you're on the right track by aiming towad a mid drive bike. I don't think you need to spend thousands of pounds on a fancy Bosch one, though. Mid drive is the main thing, because it lets the motor use the bike's gearing. The hub drive has its own planetary gear set inside, but it is at a disadvantage for hills especially.

Try to get a ride on a decent quality mid drive bike next. I think the seller would be happy to let you test ride it after hearing about your first ride on a cheap hub drive bike. A smart seller will KNOW it will be a game-changer for you and you're more likely to buy it.

Things to consider going car-free:

• Are you willing to ride in a heavy rain? (I hear it rains a LOT in Ireland...)
• Are you willing to ride in cold? Looks like it doesn't get cold enough for snow to stick near Dublin.
• Can you carry everything you need? (groceries, larger items, girlfriend)

A Drycycle would solve the first two bullets, but it's expensive:
You might find that you can replace the car for a lot of your trips but not all. In that case, maybe it makes more sense to invest in a good eBike and sign up for a rent-as-you-go car program?

For what it's worth, I think the best bike at a reasonable price to replace a car is a long tail cargo bike. In the US, the big one lately is the Lectric Expedition. I'm sure you have something similar on your side of the pond. They are universally liked by reviewers.

Last thing: I hear over there you have a class called Pedelec. (or is that just Europe?) From my understanding, this is an electric moped class. Maybe THAT is a good option for you.

In any case, let us know what you decide upon.

2old

Sounds like you test rode a Yugo to see if you'd like a Ferrari (or at least a Toyota). Pop is correct; either convert a bike with a BBS01 (legal overseas AFAIK) or other Bafang mid-drive and ride as fast as you can get away with (but be able to maintain that speed at all times) or bite the bullet with a premium mid. Just know that 15 mph is the max you'll achieve on a production bike because you have archaic laws (many states in the US allow 28 mph on roads or paths contiguous with a street). Also look at pedelecs.co.uk.

tds101 

Oh, I agree there are many variables to the situations that cause these fires, including cheap batteries, crap chargers, etc, coupled with improper charging practices, BUT that needs to be addressed in a different manner than scare tactics. Drone batteries aren't something I'm familiar with (unfortunately), but the Samsung battery debacle was definitely an eye opener (considering that it shows what a reputable company can cause when safety practices aren't fully adhered to). Yes, quality does matter. But, please, just inform people of the risks of purchasing inexpensive, unregulated crap bikes & batteries. I. personally, make it a point to buy only bikes that are UL listed. I did make 1 mistake, and that's with a smaller beater ebike (Fiido L3), but it is up to EU standards, so I highly doubt I'll be having issues with it (considering I only charge it according to the required safety methods we all try to follow to prevent battery fires).

To the OP: you definitely rode a cheap-o lemon of an ebike. Here's some recommendations from Electroheads located in the UK.

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And the last one shows hill capable ebikes,...

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LeeG

It sounds like 75% of your dissapointment is expectations due to unfamiliarity with ebikes and 25% the bike in question. The cheapest ebike will not have a lot of torque or battery capacity so you will discover its limits immediately. Once you focus on the limits you’re immediately into frustration territory. My ebike is a kit midrive that weighs more than that bike and the kit costs about the same as that bike. It also has gobs more power and I can hit its limits immediately. The issue is to work/play below those limits. I’d suggest to keep trying things out and adjusting your expectations to what you learn.

mschwett 

Something was wrong with that bike. Even with a euro/UK spec of 250w of sustained power, you’re likely more than doubling your power with only about a 25% increase in total weight (assuming the bike is big and clunk and heavy, say 40lb more than your regular bike)

It may be that the power levels weren’t functioning correctly, a battery or motor problem, or perhaps the wrong gearing for the hills which made your efforts very hard to optimize.

But I can say from experience that 250w makes a huge huge difference going up hills, and if the bike is set up to allow it, will basically allow you to ghost pedal and go 15mph on level ground or slight inclines.

portals

You might have gotten a 'dog' with the particular ebike you tested, might be worth trying a couple of other shops and different bikes and see how they perform?

You also might need to manage expectations, if you want the wow factor you need a way more powerful motor, controller and battery. Depending on your point of view re the law where you are that's a decision to be made, buy anaemic ready made stock legal bike or use donor bike and conversion kit for some fun.

A 1500W rear hub with a 17A continuous/35A max current controller will draw almost 1800W peak according to my KT-LCD8H using 52V battery, more than enough to send you on your way at 30+mph.

I tend to drive on main roads at maybe 20mph using cruise control, 25mph on major roads,and I still smile.

Bonzo Banana

I'm based in the UK myself. Typically the Carrera ebikes in Halfords are based on the Suntour HESC system and have a torque sensor based pedelec system and a battery somewhere around 300-400Wh. This is an entry level e-mountain bike so has a heavier wheels, suspension and frame. It's for those who want to go off-road. As a loaner bike it could have been abused and well used with the battery having reduced capacity.

Like most torque sensor based ebikes it links rider effort with motor output. Some people like this some don't. It's the same system as most mid-drive system despite being a hub motor. The normal Suntour HESC hub motor is capable of about a maximum 60Nm but you won't get this untess on maximum assistance and going up a steep hill.

Halfords take about 25p in the £ of all money spent in the UK on cycling but because they are at the value end this could equate to as much as 40% of bicycle sales by volume. They are a huge retailer in the UK. The Carrera ebikes are one of the most common on UK roads as are Carrera bikes in general its one of Halford's best selling brands.

I'm personally not keen on the Suntour HESC system as its proprietary with parts expensive to replace, difficult to service/replace and like most proprietary solutions it limits the lifespan of the product and has a greater environmental impact if a product cannot be easily and cheaply repaired. On the positive side its a hub motor so takes a huge amount of wear off the drivetrain as it works in parallel to the drivetrain not through it.

I think Carrera are great value normal bikes but for ebikes I'd personally rather have a normal Carrera and add a ebike kit to it. Perhaps one of the Yose Power ebike kits.

Calsun

My first e-bike was a Class II with 4" tires that weighed 70 lbs. My second and current e-bike is a Class III that weighs 27 lbs and rides like a normal road bike. The first bike cost me $1800 and the second one cost me $7,000. There are lots of inexpensive e-bikes but they are designed for casual users and not as a replacement for a road bike.

Bonzo Banana

I think casual users implies low usage but many cheap ebikes are used every day for commuting and rack up 1000s of miles. Same as gig economy food couriers who often have low cost ebikes but every day they can be using them up to 100 miles depending on length of shift etc. Here in the UK there is definitely a shortage of choice for low cost e-road bikes. Often its better to get a entry level normal road bike and fit a ebike kit to it. For safety ideally you need steel forks or frame depending on where you are fitting the hub motor. This looks like a good candidate;

https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/p/brand-x-road-bike

This would be a suitable ebike kit;

https://yosepower.com/collections/e-...ry-and-charger

Also you would need ebike cut off adapters for road bike brifters.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/baluoqi-Ele.../dp/B0BRBQS7CF

So all in all you could have a a nice e-road bike for less than £700 (often you can find a 5% discount code for yosepower) plus I would draw your attention to the battery supplied with that kit which is 15.6Ah which multiplied by 36V is just below 600Wh of capacity likely to give an assisted range of maybe 60 miles. Many e-road bikes come with batteries between 200-300Wh and so would have a hugely reduced range in comparison. That battery pack is probably enough for a days touring, probably 4-5hrs of use and then charge over night. I mean some of the Swytch kits I think are around 160-200Wh capacity a third of this kit. Admittedly the battery will be much smaller and lighter though. Personally I'd rather have the range plus extra power to go up steeper hills.

I don't think you need to spend huge money and often the most expensive ebikes are full of proprietary components which are expensive and difficult to replace and after a few years non-replaceable either because parts are not available or just not economic to replace which makes these high end ebikes throwaway products. This is not good for the wallet or the environment and something we need to stop doing. Just because you have the money to buy something doesn't mean you should. A lower cost simpler and more reliable option with easy repair and upgrading with very low depreciation is a much better option I feel. The lower cost products are often fully recyclable with steel or aluminium parts too so no landfill like carbon fibre.

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Calsun

The vast majority of people who want to have motor assistance while bicycling are not interested in learning how to buy parts and assemble them for a DIY e-bike. There is also the matter of integrating the drive controller with speed sensors and torque sensors as these are not open systems. Back in the 1980's many people assembled the parts for a white box computer but it did not save money if one added up the time invested as part of the cost. There is also the lack of support when there is a problem as a local bike shop is not going to take on the diagnostics and repairs of these DIY bikes.

If someone wants to have an e-bike they can take to their local bike shop to keep it operating then there is a much shorter list of suitable e-bikes. If someone puts together a "hot rod" they may be able to drive it on the highways but if they have a problem they are not going to be able to take it to 99% of the auto repair shops for help. After sale support should not be ignored when buying anything that is not considered disposable.

bobmcc81

Yes THAT x100 thanks TDS

portals

Probably true, buying hubs, controllers and displays from different sources is a recipe for disaster, pay a little more and buy from a shop that sells them matched and tested for compatibility.

Biggest issue I had was with fitting rear hub spacing and spinout, the electrics was easy plug'n'play, local bike guy was fine with drive train jobs, grease them up by buying some stuff and they'll help you out!