Front derailleur spacing problems
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Front derailleur spacing problems
I just picked up a used Surly Long Haul Trucker and I'm having issues with my front derailleur. It will not move outward far enough to clear the large chainring (triple). It will shift into the largest chainring, but there will be a lot of chainrub when it's on the largest in the front and smallest in the back. The second smallest in the back just makes it with occasional rub on the front derailleur. I took it to my LBS and the mechanic's opinion was that the bottom bracket must be too long. I've been searching online but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of manuals on my crankset and bottom bracket.
Here's what I'm running:
Crankset: Shimano M530 triple
Derailleur: Shimano Deore triple of some kind
Bottom Bracket: BB-ES71 113mm spindle length
Cassette: Shimano 11-34
My mechanic recommended that if I need to change the bottom bracket, I might want to switch my crankset to something a bit more current as I'm planning on touring with the bike and Octalink bottom brackets are not readily available in shops these days. Also, I'm running a 48-36-26 on the front and I realized while riding it yesterday that 26 in the back might not be enough under load and going through hills. Shimano had a 44-32-22 setup for this which sounds good, but then I'm replacing even more parts on an outdated crankset.
If it turns out a better idea to just swap cranksets, I'm open to suggestions. In that case I'd be looking for something durable but economical. I would be open to a double in the front as well but the range would have to be similar to the 44-32-22 setup.
Thanks for the help!
Here's what I'm running:
Crankset: Shimano M530 triple
Derailleur: Shimano Deore triple of some kind
Bottom Bracket: BB-ES71 113mm spindle length
Cassette: Shimano 11-34
My mechanic recommended that if I need to change the bottom bracket, I might want to switch my crankset to something a bit more current as I'm planning on touring with the bike and Octalink bottom brackets are not readily available in shops these days. Also, I'm running a 48-36-26 on the front and I realized while riding it yesterday that 26 in the back might not be enough under load and going through hills. Shimano had a 44-32-22 setup for this which sounds good, but then I'm replacing even more parts on an outdated crankset.
If it turns out a better idea to just swap cranksets, I'm open to suggestions. In that case I'd be looking for something durable but economical. I would be open to a double in the front as well but the range would have to be similar to the 44-32-22 setup.
Thanks for the help!
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 580
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 254 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 182 Times
in
141 Posts
Just to be sure-if you loosen the limit screw as much as possible and move the derailleur by hand (or by pulling the cable with your hand rather than the shift lever) it still won’t go far enough?
I’m a bit surprised, as plenty of older MTBs have 28/38/48 triples, and usually on BB spindles linger than 113, so a Deore triple derailleur should work fine.
I’m a bit surprised, as plenty of older MTBs have 28/38/48 triples, and usually on BB spindles linger than 113, so a Deore triple derailleur should work fine.
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 8,319
Bikes: '93 Trek 750, '92 Schwinn Crisscross, '93 Mongoose Alta
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1438 Post(s)
Liked 1,092 Times
in
723 Posts
Just to be sure-if you loosen the limit screw as much as possible and move the derailleur by hand (or by pulling the cable with your hand rather than the shift lever) it still won’t go far enough?
I’m a bit surprised, as plenty of older MTBs have 28/38/48 triples, and usually on BB spindles linger than 113, so a Deore triple derailleur should work fine.
I’m a bit surprised, as plenty of older MTBs have 28/38/48 triples, and usually on BB spindles linger than 113, so a Deore triple derailleur should work fine.
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Just to be sure-if you loosen the limit screw as much as possible and move the derailleur by hand (or by pulling the cable with your hand rather than the shift lever) it still won’t go far enough?
I’m a bit surprised, as plenty of older MTBs have 28/38/48 triples, and usually on BB spindles linger than 113, so a Deore triple derailleur should work fine.
I’m a bit surprised, as plenty of older MTBs have 28/38/48 triples, and usually on BB spindles linger than 113, so a Deore triple derailleur should work fine.
I was getting desperate and thinking of throwing the BB from my road double in to see if it would work (against what Shimano recommends) but it's octalink v1 not v2. Don't have anything shorter to test with.
I'm on the fence about how to deal with it. If it's just a shorter BB (not sure how it could be) or a new FD, not a big deal, but I've learned that throwing money at old parts to keep them going eventually starts becoming more expensive than a new crankset/BB/FD. As I said I'm probably going to want to swap my chainrings eventually to to have a smaller granny.
#5
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 489
Bikes: 2014 Bruce Gordon Rock&Road, 1995 Santana Visa Tandem, 1990 Trek 520, 2012 Surly LHT
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 43 Times
in
35 Posts
If it is a Shimano FD than the number is on the inside of the inner cage. Without that, its hard to diagnose if its the derailleur or something else. My recommendation is to turn the rear of the FD out a little so it doesn't rub when in the large/small combo, then see if it works okay in other combinations. There is some wiggle room in setting up triples. Sheldon Brown gave some ideas why you might not want the outer cage perfectly parallel with the chainrings.
#6
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,514
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,396 Times
in
2,093 Posts
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
4 Posts
My front derailleur (probably about the same age as yours...it's M5-something...2006 era) is at the very limit of its travel when in the big ring. It took 2 or 3 tries to get it dialed in, but now that I have, it shifts sooooo much better than the stock OEM (non-Shimano) crankset, no matter how many times I tried to dial it in.
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
If it is a Shimano FD than the number is on the inside of the inner cage. Without that, its hard to diagnose if its the derailleur or something else. My recommendation is to turn the rear of the FD out a little so it doesn't rub when in the large/small combo, then see if it works okay in other combinations. There is some wiggle room in setting up triples. Sheldon Brown gave some ideas why you might not want the outer cage perfectly parallel with the chainrings.
I can't speak for durability yet...I've maybe just got 150 miles on mine, but I'm quite satisfied with my Alivio FC-T4060. It's a 44-32-22 9-speed triple. External bearing BB.
My front derailleur (probably about the same age as yours...it's M5-something...2006 era) is at the very limit of its travel when in the big ring. It took 2 or 3 tries to get it dialed in, but now that I have, it shifts sooooo much better than the stock OEM (non-Shimano) crankset, no matter how many times I tried to dial it in.
My front derailleur (probably about the same age as yours...it's M5-something...2006 era) is at the very limit of its travel when in the big ring. It took 2 or 3 tries to get it dialed in, but now that I have, it shifts sooooo much better than the stock OEM (non-Shimano) crankset, no matter how many times I tried to dial it in.
#9
www.theheadbadge.com
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Southern Florida
Posts: 28,514
Bikes: https://www.theheadbadge.com
Mentioned: 124 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2422 Post(s)
Liked 4,396 Times
in
2,093 Posts
However, as I suspected, that crankarm looks like it's sitting outboard a bit. While I'm not there to measure chainline, I'd guesstimate that it's about 4mm further out than it could be - meaning that the BB spindle is too long or the crank's chainring offset is just unsuitable for this particular frame.
Replacing the crank and BB together is probably the best course of action to take here (and make sure the mechanic understands that copying the BB width of the Octalink on it now is not correct). If you haven't already, give the gearing some thought.
One last thing: Even though external-bearing BBs are nice, they're not necessarily the first thing you'll find at a remote bike shop in an emergency. If you plan to do touring in remote areas where picking and choosing an LBS isn't an option, I'd recommend sticking with a simple JIS square taper BB spindle and crankarm. That's the most common crank you'll find at any bike shop - especially those way out in the middle of nowhere. You can even cannibalize a thrift store bike for a crank arm or a cup-and-cone BB in the absolute worst-case scenario. While I wouldn't expect a new crank to come to this, I have had two cranks bent into boomerangs after being hit (in one case, I was hit by another rider, so it's not just automobiles that pose an issue here).
-Kurt
#10
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 489
Bikes: 2014 Bruce Gordon Rock&Road, 1995 Santana Visa Tandem, 1990 Trek 520, 2012 Surly LHT
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 43 Times
in
35 Posts
I have done a little research (partly to satisfy my curiosity) and this is what I have found. The Tiagra FD-4503 is designed for a 45mm chainline (per the service instructions at https://si.shimano.com/pFD-4503dfs/s...0A-001-ENG.pdf). The MTB FC-M530 crankset has a 50mm chainline using the recommended 113mm BB (per page 51 of the archived Shimano specifications at file:///C:/Users/eggma/Downloads/2006_SPECIFICATION.pdf). I believe the above 45 and 50mm chainlines are the standard Shimano specs for road and MTB triples, respectively.
Bottom line, your FD may just not be able to extend quite out far enough. Don't believe you can use a shorter BB; what I am seeing is 113 is the shortest V2 Octalink available and if you could find something shorter your frame might not have room for the cranskset to move inward anyway If you like the gearing then try to find a FD that would work with your shifters and crankset. I am real happy using older Shimano MTB FDs (FD-M650/M735/M900) that work great with friction shifting (and Campy brifters that have "microsteps" for the FD) but don't know if they would work with Shimano road brifters. Good luck.
Likes For Eggman84:
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Even though external-bearing BBs are nice, they're not necessarily the first thing you'll find at a remote bike shop in an emergency. If you plan to do touring in remote areas where picking and choosing an LBS isn't an option, I'd recommend sticking with a simple JIS square taper BB spindle and crankarm. That's the most common crank you'll find at any bike shop - especially those way out in the middle of nowhere.
-Kurt
-Kurt
I have done a little research (partly to satisfy my curiosity) and this is what I have found. The Tiagra FD-4503 is designed for a 45mm chainline (per the service instructions at https://si.shimano.com/pFD-4503dfs/s...0A-001-ENG.pdf). The MTB FC-M530 crankset has a 50mm chainline using the recommended 113mm BB (per page 51 of the archived Shimano specifications at file:///C:/Users/eggma/Downloads/2006_SPECIFICATION.pdf). I believe the above 45 and 50mm chainlines are the standard Shimano specs for road and MTB triples, respectively.
Bottom line, your FD may just not be able to extend quite out far enough. Don't believe you can use a shorter BB; what I am seeing is 113 is the shortest V2 Octalink available and if you could find something shorter your frame might not have room for the cranskset to move inward anyway If you like the gearing then try to find a FD that would work with your shifters and crankset. I am real happy using older Shimano MTB FDs (FD-M650/M735/M900) that work great with friction shifting (and Campy brifters that have "microsteps" for the FD) but don't know if they would work with Shimano road brifters. Good luck.
Bottom line, your FD may just not be able to extend quite out far enough. Don't believe you can use a shorter BB; what I am seeing is 113 is the shortest V2 Octalink available and if you could find something shorter your frame might not have room for the cranskset to move inward anyway If you like the gearing then try to find a FD that would work with your shifters and crankset. I am real happy using older Shimano MTB FDs (FD-M650/M735/M900) that work great with friction shifting (and Campy brifters that have "microsteps" for the FD) but don't know if they would work with Shimano road brifters. Good luck.
Outboard:
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ.../FC-T4060.html
Octalink:
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ.../FC-T4010.html
Square taper?
https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/produ.../FC-T3010.html
As Cudak said above, the square taper might be the best option for touring. I'm just not sure if the Acera FC-T3010 are any good, or if they're even square taper. The on it's webpage the specs say it is but the image definitely looks like Octalink. Maybe they're just reusing imaging from an Octalink option they also sell.
The chainline on all of those crank options are also 50mm so it looks like I'd need a new FD no matter what I do. I guess I could upgrade the FD to a 50mm compatible one for now and change crankset when I've got a firmer idea of my needs. I'll look into the older Shimano FDs as you recommend for one that's 50mm compatible.
Likes For G_I_B_B_O_N:
#12
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 489
Bikes: 2014 Bruce Gordon Rock&Road, 1995 Santana Visa Tandem, 1990 Trek 520, 2012 Surly LHT
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 43 Times
in
35 Posts
Sorry about the links not working. I need to make sure they work before posting links in the future. As to your current crankset (FC-M530), it came in 2 configurations, 44-32-22T and 48T-36T-26T. You can't get any lower than 22T small chainring. If you have the "larger" configuration, you could change just the 26T inner with a 22T and not notice much if any difference, other than the lower gearing. These are standard 104/64 mm BCD 4 arm cranks so chainrings are still readily available (about $8 for an alloy 22T, $11 for a steel 22T). As to the rubbing in large large- other than annoying, how often are you in that combination? Could save a lot of money not buying anything if you realistically never use that combo (except downhill with a tail wind).
Likes For Eggman84:
#13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Sorry about the links not working. I need to make sure they work before posting links in the future. As to your current crankset (FC-M530), it came in 2 configurations, 44-32-22T and 48T-36T-26T. You can't get any lower than 22T small chainring. If you have the "larger" configuration, you could change just the 26T inner with a 22T and not notice much if any difference, other than the lower gearing. These are standard 104/64 mm BCD 4 arm cranks so chainrings are still readily available (about $8 for an alloy 22T, $11 for a steel 22T). As to the rubbing in large large- other than annoying, how often are you in that combination? Could save a lot of money not buying anything if you realistically never use that combo (except downhill with a tail wind).
As for the chainring, aluminium or steel? $3 difference is irrelevant price-wise. Any reason to go aluminium over steel besides a marginal amount of weight?
#14
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 489
Bikes: 2014 Bruce Gordon Rock&Road, 1995 Santana Visa Tandem, 1990 Trek 520, 2012 Surly LHT
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 43 Times
in
35 Posts
You haven't said what shifters you are using. On Shimano road shifters, you have to peel back the rubber hood to find the number. On MTB shifters, I don't know where the number is. Barends, its on the right rubber shift lever. If we knew that I, or others, might be able to tell you what FD would work with a MTB triple crankset and your shifters. Really need both bits of info.
Something that just occurred to me is that the shape of the Tiagra FD-4503 is designed for road rings (its matching crankset the FC-4503 has 30-39-50T rings). Not a huge difference from the rings you are using but the "tail" of the derailleur is further away from the large chainring than intended, and would more likely lead to chain rub.
Something that just occurred to me is that the shape of the Tiagra FD-4503 is designed for road rings (its matching crankset the FC-4503 has 30-39-50T rings). Not a huge difference from the rings you are using but the "tail" of the derailleur is further away from the large chainring than intended, and would more likely lead to chain rub.
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
You haven't said what shifters you are using. On Shimano road shifters, you have to peel back the rubber hood to find the number. On MTB shifters, I don't know where the number is. Barends, its on the right rubber shift lever. If we knew that I, or others, might be able to tell you what FD would work with a MTB triple crankset and your shifters. Really need both bits of info.
Something that just occurred to me is that the shape of the Tiagra FD-4503 is designed for road rings (its matching crankset the FC-4503 has 30-39-50T rings). Not a huge difference from the rings you are using but the "tail" of the derailleur is further away from the large chainring than intended, and would more likely lead to chain rub.
Something that just occurred to me is that the shape of the Tiagra FD-4503 is designed for road rings (its matching crankset the FC-4503 has 30-39-50T rings). Not a huge difference from the rings you are using but the "tail" of the derailleur is further away from the large chainring than intended, and would more likely lead to chain rub.
I would be happy to hear any recommendations for a replacement FD. I'm also planning on swapping my granny with a Shimano Deore M532 22t 64mm 9-Speed Chainring. That'll make my gearing 48-36-22t in the front and 11-34 in the back.
#16
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 489
Bikes: 2014 Bruce Gordon Rock&Road, 1995 Santana Visa Tandem, 1990 Trek 520, 2012 Surly LHT
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 43 Times
in
35 Posts
I have currently have Shimano 600 Ultegra downtube shifters on it. Both sides are being used as friction shifters. I believe these shifters are only compatible with 6-7-8 speed indexing, so I just use them in friction mode (front is friction only). I might eventually switch to bar ends but I'm in no rush. I also have Shimano 105 ST-5510 9-speed road shifters I could use if there was any major reason. I prefer the downtube ones as they're reliable and easy to maintain.
I would be happy to hear any recommendations for a replacement FD. I'm also planning on swapping my granny with a Shimano Deore M532 22t 64mm 9-Speed Chainring. That'll make my gearing 48-36-22t in the front and 11-34 in the back.
I would be happy to hear any recommendations for a replacement FD. I'm also planning on swapping my granny with a Shimano Deore M532 22t 64mm 9-Speed Chainring. That'll make my gearing 48-36-22t in the front and 11-34 in the back.
Enough about shifters though. What I am running, and what I think would work well are old style MTB FDs. I have experience with the following using Shimano 9 speed Barend shifters (right indexed and left friction).
FD-M900, downpull FD, XTR level from 1992 – 1995. Designed for 3 x 8. Minimum number of teeth between the middle and large chainring is 8T. Maximum difference in the number of teeth between the small and large chainring is 26T (this would match what you are planning to do). Was designed for 48/38/28T or 46/36/26 rings. I am using it on a Bruce Gordon (3x9) with 44/36/22 rings. I also used it on a Santana Tandem (3x9) with 54/44/28T rings 28 rings and a Co-motion touring bike (3x9) with 44/36/22 rings. Note that the FD-M901 was top pull.
FD-M735 (XT level) and FD-M650 (LX level) from 1990-1993. Designed for 3 x 7. Minimum number of teeth between the middle and large chainring is 5T (could run in 1/2 step configurations). Maximum difference in the number of teeth between the small and large chainring is 26T (this would match what you are planning to do). I am using the FD-735 on a Co-motion touring bike (3x9) with 46/38/24 rings, and on a Cannondale (3x9) with 44/34/22 rings. I am using the FD-650 on a "vintage" Trek 520 (originally a 3 x 7 but upgraded over the years to 3x9) with 46/38/24 rings.
The particular thing I like about the above FDs is they lack the large inner plate of the more modern triples. Shimano made this change when they went to more cogs, and got rid of the protruding chain pins that used to help snag the next larger chain ring and lift the chain up onto it. This was also when Shimano started limiting the selection of front chainrings to 2 specific options; the shaping on the inner plate matched the chainrings to help lift the chain. from the small to middle chainrings I find that the older ones shift just fine, maybe not as quick or cleanly as the newer the newer FDs but then I tend to not be stomping on the pedals when shifting the front, and it allows me freedom to pick any combination of chainrings I want.
You can find still these FDs on e-bay. That is where I have picked up all the ones I am using with the exception of the M650, which came original on the Trek. If interested, PM me and I can send you copies of the original Shimano instructions for all these.
Likes For Eggman84:
#18
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: SoCal
Posts: 489
Bikes: 2014 Bruce Gordon Rock&Road, 1995 Santana Visa Tandem, 1990 Trek 520, 2012 Surly LHT
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 43 Times
in
35 Posts
Yes, as I said in my above post I am, or have in the past, used all three of these FDs in 3x9 setups, and most have MTB cranks with the 50mm chainline. These FDs don't seem to care what chain your using (obviously I am using 9 speed to match my cassette), what crankset (I have mostly MTB cranksets), chainrings (I have a mix of ramped and pinned as well as non ramped and pinned), or rear derailleur (I am using a combination of 8 and 9 speed MTB RDs). Its all made possible using a friction front shifter. The problems begin only when you try to use Shimano road brifters, which index the front shifting.
From what you have said your setup is, any of these 3 FDs should work. If you had any qualms, you could get the LX version for about $10 used on E-bay. If it worked, and you wanted a better NOS one, they come up occasionally.
Likes For Eggman84:
#19
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 66
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Yes, as I said in my above post I am, or have in the past, used all three of these FDs in 3x9 setups, and most have MTB cranks with the 50mm chainline. These FDs don't seem to care what chain your using (obviously I am using 9 speed to match my cassette), what crankset (I have mostly MTB cranksets), chainrings (I have a mix of ramped and pinned as well as non ramped and pinned), or rear derailleur (I am using a combination of 8 and 9 speed MTB RDs). Its all made possible using a friction front shifter. The problems begin only when you try to use Shimano road brifters, which index the front shifting.
From what you have said your setup is, any of these 3 FDs should work. If you had any qualms, you could get the LX version for about $10 used on E-bay. If it worked, and you wanted a better NOS one, they come up occasionally.
From what you have said your setup is, any of these 3 FDs should work. If you had any qualms, you could get the LX version for about $10 used on E-bay. If it worked, and you wanted a better NOS one, they come up occasionally.
Likes For G_I_B_B_O_N:
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
FordTrax
Bicycle Mechanics
14
03-26-18 09:44 AM
ridemgis
Touring
11
10-22-14 08:02 PM