Abiding hatred for bicycle derailleur drive trains
#51
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,603
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10944 Post(s)
Liked 7,470 Times
in
4,179 Posts
Likes For mstateglfr:
#52
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,095 Times
in
5,053 Posts
#53
Cycleway town
That might have been me. I used a 3 x 9 set up on an RK3 hub, resulting in 81 gears
#54
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,104
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1782 Post(s)
Liked 1,620 Times
in
926 Posts
Lessons learned on the project:
I found that the freewheel mechanism had enough internal resistance that the extra chain tension provided by a short cage derailleur was warranted.
I had to obtain the appropriate anti-rotation washers, for the hub shifting mechanism to point where it made sense.
I needed to use a fine tooth hacksaw to cut the chainstay cable stop lengthwise to facilitate wheel removal. (Turned it into a split cable stop)
Additionally, there needed to be a short section of cable housing to get from the chainstay cable stop to the hub. The cable housing was too short to be practical unless it was flexible coil wound brake housing since the location was originally intended to serve a derailleur system. No big deal in practice, even if difficult & inconvenient to work with. The housing did need metal ferrules to stay put at the hub because of hub shifter cable stop design.
In the end, I brazed on a new split cable stop about 2 inches further away. That solved all the issues, inconvenience & allowed shifter cable housing to be used. But I think there maybe clamp on cable stops that would work as well if you find difficulty & choose not to braze.
Also a cable break/splitter like you find on S&S coupled bikes makes a lot of sense so you never need to fuss with the hub shifting mechanism or be tied to the bike when removing the wheel.
IGH's have limited ratio restrictions.
The Nexus 7 is 2:1...So, an 18 tooth cog can only be driven by a 36 tooth or bigger sprocket. From there it's a matter of finding a large chain ring that avoids duplicate ratios. A 52-36 crankset provides decent spread with evenly spaced non-duplicates. But that only matters if you care about evenly spaced gears; 53-39 lines up with nearly all duplicates.
A 53-36 or 50-34 crankset works nearly as well as a 52-36 but not quite as good in terms of spread between gears. A 19 tooth cog is the lowest Shimano legal but isn't as low in ratio as 18/36 and the gear spacing is less even across the range.
The next suitable ratio I found was a 28-40 like available on an XT M785 crankset, but a 14 tooth Sturmey Archer cog is too small in diameter to fit the Nexus hub. (The chain will rub on stuff) So, I had to scrap that idea.
Further on the crankset side, is q-factor. The road crank arms kept hitting the chain stays on my particular project. So my gut reaction is to suggest a mountain crankset as it is more likely to work if converting an older wide chainstayed mountain bike with a 68mm bottom bracket shell. Conversly, that means Hollowtech road stuff is less likely to work IMO/IME. Of course that depends on what you are starting with. The dilly is modern 4 bolt mountain bike cranksets won't do the optimal 52-36 chainrings even if you spacer out the 68mm bottom bracket shell. So you have a connundrum. (sp?)
In my case, the ideal solution was a 116mm square taper bottom bracket and a generic mountain bike triple with a 110mm 5 armed crank spider. The 52-36 rings bolted right on. Easy as pie.
By way of experimenting from the parts box after giving up on the Hollowtech route: The 110mm bottom bracket I first tried caused interference between the rings & the chainstay, & the 123mm bottom bracket made for terrible chainline & terrible shifting to the big ring on account of being at the extreme range of the front derailleur.
I mention all this because although the system works beautifully it may take a little experimenting & budget to find the best combination of components.
353% range in total from 31.3 to 110 gear inches.
The percentage jump between gears is 17, 14, 8, 8, 8, 7, 6, 10, 7, 8, 7, 17, & 16%
So the bike is good for about 8 to about 30 miles per hour at 90rpm. With the closest ratios between 12-22 mph.
Info overload, I know. But, TLDR; Yes, someone has tried it.
Last edited by base2; 11-13-19 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Missle annie us typographical errors
Likes For base2:
Likes For ksryder:
#56
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,104
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1782 Post(s)
Liked 1,620 Times
in
926 Posts
They do, but the current version accepts 8/9/10 speed cassettes.
Sturmey-Archer | CS-RF3 Silver
Sturmey-Archer | CS-RF3 Silver
Methinks you'd need third shifter located somewhere though, for the front.
#57
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,095 Times
in
5,053 Posts
99 combos of gears,
Hit a dog,
Bust a cog,
90 combos of gear on the bike
Likes For livedarklions:
Likes For ksryder:
Likes For base2:
#60
Banned.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 297
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 97 Post(s)
Liked 106 Times
in
66 Posts
To hijack this thread further... maybe an IGH by itself but mount a chain tensioner to take up slack for a double or triple up front! Not 99 gears but with a Sturmey Archer 8 speed you can have up to 24! I have an old frame lying about..... Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,884
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4786 Post(s)
Liked 3,907 Times
in
2,541 Posts
I absolutely love riding a 12- 23 9-speed. All those 1 and 2 tooth jumps. I also have the range of a 10-42 cassette. (50-38-24 triple) I'll go 1X when they come out with a 17 cog cassette and I can get the small jumps and good range (and keep the hub and dropout spacing the same as 9-speed to keep my knees happy - Q-factor).
My current 9-speed w/ DT is so reliably I have full faith that it will work until that 17-speed cassette comes out.
wphamilton, for some of us, fix gears don't suck either.
Ben
My current 9-speed w/ DT is so reliably I have full faith that it will work until that 17-speed cassette comes out.
wphamilton, for some of us, fix gears don't suck either.
Ben
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
I absolutely love riding a 12- 23 9-speed. All those 1 and 2 tooth jumps. I also have the range of a 10-42 cassette. (50-38-24 triple) I'll go 1X when they come out with a 17 cog cassette and I can get the small jumps and good range (and keep the hub and dropout spacing the same as 9-speed to keep my knees happy - Q-factor).
My current 9-speed w/ DT is so reliably I have full faith that it will work until that 17-speed cassette comes out.
wphamilton, for some of us, fix gears don't suck either.
Ben
My current 9-speed w/ DT is so reliably I have full faith that it will work until that 17-speed cassette comes out.
wphamilton, for some of us, fix gears don't suck either.
Ben
#64
Senior Member
Sure, derailleurs themselves can last a long time. On the other hand, chains, which are a part of the derailleur drivetrain, have quite limited lifespan, especially in the aforementioned conditions.
#65
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,104
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1782 Post(s)
Liked 1,620 Times
in
926 Posts
That is what I was describing in my previous reply to you. A Shimano Nexus 7 with a double crankset. 14 speeds, evenly spaced due to chainring selection with the middle 10 speeds being close ratio at about 7 to 8% apart.
#66
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,336
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6195 Post(s)
Liked 4,193 Times
in
2,352 Posts
Even the carbon belts that are suggested above wear out. They may take longer but they are more expensive to replace. A good, serviceable chain can be had for around $12 and lasts around 3000 miles. A carbon belt costs $75 to $100 and lasts 19,000 miles. That's 6 times as long as a chain but the replacement cost is 6 times the cost.
There are also other considerations. A chain drive system can have incredibly wide gear ranges with little weight. As stated above, I have bikes with gear ranges of over 700%. No IGH system can match that and the ones that come close place a lot of extra weight on the bike. IGH systems with a gear range that is closer to that of a chain drive system cost several times more as well.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
#67
Advanced Slacker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 6,209
Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Canfielld Tilt
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2761 Post(s)
Liked 2,534 Times
in
1,433 Posts
The OP is a one time poster and has not returned to this thread.
We’ve been well trolled.
We’ve been well trolled.
Likes For Kapusta:
#68
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,095 Times
in
5,053 Posts
#69
working on my sandal tan
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,626
Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)
Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3870 Post(s)
Liked 2,563 Times
in
1,577 Posts
Sometimes I get a little jealous by how much impact a seagull can have with one post and a few minutes of time.
#70
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 2,249
Bikes: 1964 Legnano Roma Olympiade, 1973 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Raleigh Super Course, 1978 Peugeot PR10, 2002 Specialized Allez, 2007 Specialized Roubaix, 2013 Culprit Croz Blade
Mentioned: 68 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 741 Post(s)
Liked 818 Times
in
421 Posts
One time posts 🤡 should self destruct after 24 hours, but what fun would that be?
Likes For Slightspeed:
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,984
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2488 Post(s)
Liked 736 Times
in
520 Posts
I'm not a fan of derailleurs, but it's the only way to get the range I like.
I'm struggling with the tandem. The extra long gear cable and 10 speeds have proven impossible to get right. I have no choice because I use a rear hub motor, but I'll go back to the more forgiving 8-speed on the next full rebuild.
I'm struggling with the tandem. The extra long gear cable and 10 speeds have proven impossible to get right. I have no choice because I use a rear hub motor, but I'll go back to the more forgiving 8-speed on the next full rebuild.
Likes For Cyclist753:
#73
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,492
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Mentioned: 511 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7341 Post(s)
Liked 2,438 Times
in
1,423 Posts
Maybe it was a troll post, but the discussion has been entertaining, informative, and rewarding.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#74
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,095 Times
in
5,053 Posts
Sink in a bog.
Hit a tree in the fog.
Plunk a guy on a jog.
Rear wheel went agog.
Rode through Gog and Magog.
No combos of gears on the bike.
Last edited by livedarklions; 11-14-19 at 04:19 PM.
Likes For livedarklions:
#75
Senior Member
Both have their place. We have derailleurs on our sport/recreation bikes - road and mountain. They are lighter, provide a greater range and are a bit more efficient.
The bikes we use for daily transportation all have IGH. The fully enclosed drivetrain means we can wear whatever clothes we want, they are ultra-reliable and largely maintenance-free, and don't get gooked up during snowy winter rides.
Likes For CrankyOne: