PromptCritical 

I'm looking to build a new set of wheels for a road bike (vintage steel frame, but period correct is not important). (No bike details as I'm really asking a general question and am not sure which bike they'll go on).

I really like the SRAM XDR setups, so I'd like to stay with them. I'm not particularly worried about hub width as steel is pretty easy to work with and expand the dropout width if necessary, and I'm not shy about modifying the axle width as long as it is not a boost hub.

So, my question is what is the sweet spot for weight and stiffness? Way back in my college days, I remember a new set of wheels made a huge difference (mostly in stiffness IIRC), but I have no idea what they were.

It seems like 1600-1880g is a pretty easy and inexpensive target and 1200-1400 is reasonable.

Am I right about stiffness being the key? Any concerns about too stiff? Any specific recommendations?

bboy314

SRAM XDR + vintage road bike doesn’t generally work together and will be extremely limiting. Is there a reason you don’t want to use a hub/driver that’s compatible with your frame? Something like a classic Shimano Dura Ace/ultegra/105 would likely work great.

Otherwise you have about 10,000 great options for hubs, rims, spokes, etc. I know you are really resistant to relinquishing more details about your bike and use case but it would really help others help you with advice and suggestions.

PromptCritical 

There aren't really any details as I'm contemplating the build, and I'll be building up a frame. One of my challenges is that I have longer legs and a shorter torso than is typical for being 6' tall, making it unviable to buy a production frame. Carbon and aluminum are out as they are too hard to modify to fit, and I love steel frames (I'd still be staying with my '77 Colnago Super if I didn't have arthritis). I'm probably going to build a steel frame this summer or next when TitaniumDave has his next class.

The use case is purely pavement road riding. Fairly fast and hard as I'm a former racer and that's how I roll, with longer rides up to 75-100 miles. I weigh about 200# and carry a camelback and a tire change set. No bikepacking, touring or off-road, but to the extent San Diego roads are in pretty bad shape, they need to be tough wheels. I'm not interested in tubeless at this point, but that's probably irrelevant as most everything is tubeless ready at this point. I'll be using disc brakes. I'm not a true weight weanie, but weight does matter, although I think other things are more important, but I'm willing and hoping to be educated on that.

Hope this helps.

I'm curious as to your statement about SRAM XDR and vintage bikes. I currently have two older (maybe not purely vintage) bikes running XDR in the rear and they work great, with a limits on the gear spread on the cranksets.

veganbikes

So the details are important as most vintage bikes are going to be 120 or 126mm QR spacing in the end a lot of the newer stuff is 142 thru-axle and for disc brakes. In the end you might be able to stretch an older steel frame to 130mm but there are a lot of factors involved in what you can or cannot mount.

If you are building a custom frame then you can do whatever you want and in that case I would go for something modern with 142mm spacing so you can run a nice modern groupset with no issues and can find a ton of wheels and run wider tires so you can be more comfortable on the bike. You can find a ton of wheels in 12x100 and 12x142 in whatever freehub you want pretty much so you just need to figure out what you want in the wheel set.

I would go to a custom wheel builder and they can build you whatever you want and tune it to your needs. I am quite happy with Astral they built me 3 wheels and they have been great so far. One wheel is a Project 321 hub and the other wheels are White Industries (and the front is a SON dynamo on that set).

PromptCritical 

I'm really just asking for advice on what makes a great wheelset. I'm very aware of the challenges of steel frames and the various different axles. That is something I will have to deal with in one way or another, and I will and some issues may require a slightly different direction, but since there are so many choices in wheel builds, that I'm trying to get educated on what makes the difference in a wheelset.

Limitations of the wheel build may drive changes in the frame I decide on.

veganbikes

A wheel is a system so you want the right components for your needs. If you are a heavier rider or want something more durable you will want more spokes and you want the right spokes for your rim. Same concept in reverse for a lighter rider, if you are doing fewer spokes a heavier duty rim might not be the way to go.

You have to ask yourself what you want in a wheel and a good wheel builder can help you build that wheel. Just getting generic it is hard to really give much advice other than.

Russ Roth

DT240 comes in a 130mm xdr setup, it'll probably work fine with minimal fuss, not sure what makes xdr important as its just another 12sp cassette standard. I've looked for moderately decent rims for rim brake but there isn't a lot. You could build them up with some carbon rims, these are becoming fewer on the ground as everything moves towards carbon. But lightbicycle could build you up a pair with some 35ish mm deep rims, wing 21 spokes, alloy nipples and the dt hubs for a light climbing wheelset with a better aero result than anything available when the bike was new. Just don't go too wide on the rim or your brakes might not function perfectly and with carbon rims the pads already don't do the best job. Not certain the weight but you should get close to that 1500g or less.

shelbyfv

The lack of specifics makes this seem like more useless noodling. Get a bike and components, then decide on appropriate wheels.

PromptCritical 

Thanks Russ, this is helpful. I'll be using disc brakes, so carbon rims are fine. I like the XDR setup, and I try to minimize the number of variations in the garage so things are interchangeable to extent possible. Besides, the cogs don't fall all over the floor when the cassette is removed!

PromptCritical 

Since the wheels are pretty much the most expensive component on the bike, don't you think it would be smart to start there?

shelbyfv

No. You could end up with 75mm deep carbon tubulars with ceramic bearings. How would that be?

Russ Roth

Only "early" road bike bike I can think of that would take disc is the LeMond cross frame and that really isn't early. If you're looking to convert a non-disc frameset the problems can get worse. Disc requires a 135mm rear hub. I spread the stays on an old steel road bike to do this and after a couple years the seat stays separated from the seat tube, they just weren't designed to spread that far.
Older frames also won't deal adding disc tables, they'll collapse the tube without sufficient reinforcement. Just things to keep in mind.

PromptCritical 

I really shouldn't have put the detail in this question, but everyone seems to want the details of the bike. I haven't built the bike yet, and I'm really just looking for insight on modern wheels. Carbon vs. Aluminum, Weight vs. stiffness, ride quality, etc. Last thing I want to do is buy/build an expensive set of wheels and not like them.

It really seems to me that the wheels should be one of the first, or at least most important, considerations in a bike build.

FBinNY 

FWIW bike wheel stiffness is almost entirely a function of the spokes. Specifically, the sum of the spoke cross sections.

So, if it's only about stiffness, use either more or thicker spokes, or both.

However, there's s point of diminishing returns, so most riders can effectively use as few as 16 14g spokes, or go with 28 or fewer 14/16g DB spokes with no issues.

bboy314

I think your question is so broad, and your needs so vague that you’re probably better off just doing some reading or talking with a professional to get a feel for what you want. Just coming to a forum to say “wheels: discuss!” doesn’t seem like a particularly efficient way to learn anything.

base2 

What makes a good wheel is little more than enough spokes to do the job reliably. When properly adjusted a virtuous wheel will be round, true, with even & equal spoke tension, and strike a good use appropriate balance between aero and weight.

Carbon rims are generally looked upon with a kind eye only because you can get more "aero" per gram than other materials and often times use less spokes.

Think of a wheel system more of a tool for a use.

How much do you weigh? How fast do you ride? What surface do you ride? Does weight factor? Aero? How much? How wide is wide enough to support the load with out exceeding the rims pressure limits? Are there rim pressure limits? What is the tire width range the rim will support? How wide of a tire will your frame accept? What width tires are you actually going to run? Tubed, tubeless, tubular? Hill climb, time trial, gravel packing? What lacing pattern compliments the above?

Each of these use cases have very different conflicting attributes based on very different concessions necessary to make a wheel "good" tool for a particular purpose.

You first need to define your use case, then optimize around that.

That being said, I don't think anyone has ever said: "Man, I wish I had heavier wheels." Also, on a general level, it's pretty hard to go wrong with a few extra spokes than you think you'll need.

You mention stiffness. It's not something I would worry about. Deeper wheels with more spokes will indeed ride stiffer than shallower wheels with fewer spokes. The better concern is how much energy is preserved as forward motion? Being radially flimsy is actually a selling point with many shallow carbon rims. Super comfortable as little to no shock is transferred to the rider. Axially stiff is and always has been a function in proportion to the number & lengths of the spokes as well as the bracing angle. Which itself has gotten better over the years with asymmetric hub flanges to account for wider cassettes allowing for yet again fewer spokes than in years past. It's simply not much of a concern any more with higher quality hubs and improved hub design.

PromptCritical 

Although I didn’t think my needs vague (road use only, 230# all up weight, rough roads, cost effective) I understand I’ve asked a theoretical question and specific questions are easier to answer.

I would love to read up on wheel design. As a recovering engineer, I eat that stuff up. Can you point me to higher level stuff? I know the basics and built many wheels when I was racing, but that was (40+ (OMG! Years ago) and technology has changed.

SoSmellyAir

Have you tried a bike with endurance geometry, i.e., stack to reach ratio of at least 1.5 (my personal definition)?

One with longer legs and a shorter torso than average for a given height might want to try to ride a frame size down with a longer seat post. This might result in too much saddle to bar drop, which is why I recommended trying a bike with endurance geometry.

Duragrouch

Disclaimer: Mine is a narrow segment of the biking population, I think.

Good wheels are not cheap. Thus, I like them to be durable. This would be different if I were running race weight, but over the years I steadily upped the weight on my road racer bike wheels, until I got a set that lasted more than 4 years (on a light bike, me 160 lbs, smooth roads, just a ton of miles, I don't think that's too much to ask). And those were double-socketed rims, on 36 or 32 spokes (can't remember), I think 3 cross, and the biggest tires I could fit in the frame, I think 28mm. This was in the days of only rim brakes. I don't think they make rims like that any more, just aluminum rims that are especially thick at the nipple holes.

If your goal is different, such as less rotating mass, a more "lively feel" (don't ask me, I've just heard terms like that), more aerodynamic, best fit for X size tire or wide range of tires, and anything else, I'm sure there are folks here that can advise along any of those lines of thinking.

Garthr

I think the purported benefits of this or that wheel design are akin to "blinding oneself with science", meaning getting caught up in a numbers and words game. If you really inquire as to what those numbers and words actually mean, in apractical sense, well that's where the game loses its luster. That there are endless wheel materials/shapes/designs/theories is evidence that no one has anything over anyone else in those terms. Notice how the more you invest in wheel theories, the greater the the pinball machine effect. Being swayed/pushed in this direction, then that direction, there's no stability to be found. It's all a sales/attention pitch. Pick a design and ride. What you think matters so much matters so little. Write "shut up legs(mindless thoughts)" on your top stem and be done with it .

L134 

From your stated experience and the list of your bikes I would think you are the best one to answer your own questions. I should think your best bet for expanding your own knowledge would be to read some of the books on bicycle wheels often mentioned in these forums. There is also a whole lot of good reading at https://wheelfanatyk.com/

Like most things bicycle, there are all sorts of differing opinions.

PromptCritical 

Great - thank you - I'll read it!

Thanks for the complement, and I do have a lot of experience but it is dated. All pre-carbon.

Update: After just a couple minutes of browsing, I can say this is a fantastic source. "Z-bend" spokes. what a great idea!

PromptCritical 

Yes, that's exactly my challenge. I haven't found an endurance frame, per se, but I am hopeful that a custom frame I found on eBay will work. I'm waiting on some parts to complete the build, but the wheels and some pedals are on and coasting around on it indicates I might be in luck!

PromptCritical 

Thanks for the detail. Very helpful. So, in terms of energy preserved, are you saying that a 2x or 3x pattern is better than a 1x or 0x? What about ride quality? How much of that is a function of the wheel vs.tires?

PromptCritical 

So, I looked around on the interwebs and found this eBook. https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

It's a great read about actually building wheels (some of which I knew from my wheelbuilding days in college), but still doesn't answer some of my foundational questions about design.

For example, what exactly is a "climbing wheel" or a "touring wheel".

Obviously, lighter is better and aero is better, but what about stiffness?