I think Shimano is finally developing a bicycle gearbox!
#26
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Cool?
So would this be good for commuting since it would be enclosed? And for MTB or would it not shift fast enough and be a tank in weight?
So far I havent been riding and come upon a situation where I wished I had all the gears located in the bottom of the main triangle, so I havent explored this tech at all.
So would this be good for commuting since it would be enclosed? And for MTB or would it not shift fast enough and be a tank in weight?
So far I havent been riding and come upon a situation where I wished I had all the gears located in the bottom of the main triangle, so I havent explored this tech at all.
It would be nice for mtb if you could transfer the half pound of weight that is a cassette from the rear wheel to the bottom bracket. Getting rid of the rear derailleur hanging down would be a nice benefit. With full suspension bikes it would simplify the chain routing!
I'm excited for this patent because of three things - Shimano's work on chain coatings, new XTR's perfect shifting under load, and just the point we're at in regards to cost effective manufacturing. Oh, and that Shimano is the defacto bike component manufacturer.
With the new coatings and under a constant oil bath the internal components could probably last 100,000 miles so that makes it economical to finally have chain drive vs gear drive. Lighter weight, way less friction loss.
With Shimano perfecting shifting technology this chain driven box could shift as positively as a gear drive. Perfected shifting means there's no chance of killing the gearbox with a bad shift under load.
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It looks to me like a CVT transmission used in runabouts and some cars. Great in runabouts and scooters, but terrible in cars. Should work fine for a bike too.
#28
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Kind of surprised no one has mentioned Pinion gearbox in this thread, designed and built in Stuttgart, been on the market for numerous years.
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And there is another newer one that works like the pinion. It is 8 speed with 8 pairs of connected gears, pawls inside the shaft will engage one set at a time. I forget the name.
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/1-ques...down-2017.html
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/1-ques...down-2017.html
Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 11-09-19 at 11:57 PM.
#30
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My gearbox designer question is always 'Have you studied the history of this, and what answer does your design offer to the issues that have kept bicycle gearbox transmissions from being successful for the last ~130 years?"
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...ngs-page-1.png
https://oldbike.eu/1937-adler-dreigang-type-157/
https://patentimages.storage.googlea...ngs-page-1.png
https://oldbike.eu/1937-adler-dreigang-type-157/
#31
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The chain-sprocket design offers reduced weight and drag compared to a gearbox with spur gears. However, it still wouldn't shift while not pedalling.
#32
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One advantage is that people will find it easier to understand shifting.
Bicycle enthusiasts (people who would use this site) don't have an issue, but we can all probably recall trying to understand shifting to a person with zero mechanical inclination.
Add to that low maintenance, less dirt, less grease ... big issues for a lot of people who might like a bike but don't want to do anything mechanical.
Obviously there are gains for off-road riders, once the weight is down, in that derailleurs don't get snagged or clogged and chains don't stick or flap--and everything stays cleaner.
Soon the whole thing will be produced in some miracle plastic and weigh less than derailleurs and cogs (particularly those dinner-plate-sized 1x 42-tooth monstrosities) and will be the new standard. might take a decade or so .... but I am sure people who thought up safety bicycles thought they had reached the pinnacle too.
Bicycle enthusiasts (people who would use this site) don't have an issue, but we can all probably recall trying to understand shifting to a person with zero mechanical inclination.
Add to that low maintenance, less dirt, less grease ... big issues for a lot of people who might like a bike but don't want to do anything mechanical.
Obviously there are gains for off-road riders, once the weight is down, in that derailleurs don't get snagged or clogged and chains don't stick or flap--and everything stays cleaner.
Soon the whole thing will be produced in some miracle plastic and weigh less than derailleurs and cogs (particularly those dinner-plate-sized 1x 42-tooth monstrosities) and will be the new standard. might take a decade or so .... but I am sure people who thought up safety bicycles thought they had reached the pinnacle too.
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What will the wear on the Shimano Chain gearbox be like?
As I understand that enclosed chaincase bikes do fairly well with wear. But, perhaps they aren't ridden very far.
If done well, it could be 100% bathed in oil (or a dip rotation). So, one might expect fairly long wear. But, does one have to expect the whole thing to be torn down say every 5000 miles?
Difficult to monitor, so if one doesn't keep up on maintenance, then it tears up the chain, and both cassettes. Perhaps the whole thing just eats itself up?
Or, repairing a broken chain on the road? That could be a nightmare.
Can one limp home on malfunctioning "gearboxes"?
Can it handle those occasional moments when one chooses to shift under a 2,000 W load?
As I understand that enclosed chaincase bikes do fairly well with wear. But, perhaps they aren't ridden very far.
If done well, it could be 100% bathed in oil (or a dip rotation). So, one might expect fairly long wear. But, does one have to expect the whole thing to be torn down say every 5000 miles?
Difficult to monitor, so if one doesn't keep up on maintenance, then it tears up the chain, and both cassettes. Perhaps the whole thing just eats itself up?
Or, repairing a broken chain on the road? That could be a nightmare.
Can one limp home on malfunctioning "gearboxes"?
Can it handle those occasional moments when one chooses to shift under a 2,000 W load?
#36
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I'm with Gresp on this. This patent isn't about that gearbox. The gearbox is mentioned, but there's also a lot of detail about a roller chain, and they've included information about an IGH, as shown on a traditional omafiets.
The guts of that gearbox aren't even important--from page 34, (emphasis mine):
"[ 0078 ] As seen in FIG . 1 , the bicycle internal transmission
device 12 is mounted to the bicycle frame B3 . The bicycle
internal transmission device 12 is configured to transmit the
pedaling force to the rear wheel B62 at a variable speed
stage . The variable speed stage includes speed stages dif
ferent from each other . The bicycle internal transmission
device 12 can have at least two speed stages . Furthermore ,
the bicycle internal transmission device 12 can have a
continuously variable speed stage if needed and / or desired ."
It's about some kind of "sliding components", maybe specially textured (at a micro scale, I'd think). The important stuff is all way down at the end:
"What is claimed is :
1 . A sliding component comprising :
a base member ;
a plated layer including a metallic material , the plated
layer being disposed on the base member ; and
a lubricant agent including a fatty acid containing a
carboxyl group , the lubricant agent contacting the
plated layer .
2 . The sliding component according to claim 1 , wherein
the fatty acid includes an olein acid .
3 . The sliding component according to claim 1 , wherein
the fatty acid includes a stearic acid .
4 . The sliding component according to claim 1 , wherein
the fatty acid includes a linoleic acid .
5 . The sliding component according to claim 1 , wherein
the plated layer has Vickers hardness ranging from 10 HV
to 200 HV .
6 . The sliding component according to claim 1 , wherein
the plated layer includes tin .
..."
So, apparently, they've done some kind of work developing combinations of surface coatings, lubricants, and possibly surface textures, to the end of reducing friction.
The guts of that gearbox aren't even important--from page 34, (emphasis mine):
"[ 0078 ] As seen in FIG . 1 , the bicycle internal transmission
device 12 is mounted to the bicycle frame B3 . The bicycle
internal transmission device 12 is configured to transmit the
pedaling force to the rear wheel B62 at a variable speed
stage . The variable speed stage includes speed stages dif
ferent from each other . The bicycle internal transmission
device 12 can have at least two speed stages . Furthermore ,
the bicycle internal transmission device 12 can have a
continuously variable speed stage if needed and / or desired ."
It's about some kind of "sliding components", maybe specially textured (at a micro scale, I'd think). The important stuff is all way down at the end:
"What is claimed is :
1 . A sliding component comprising :
a base member ;
a plated layer including a metallic material , the plated
layer being disposed on the base member ; and
a lubricant agent including a fatty acid containing a
carboxyl group , the lubricant agent contacting the
plated layer .
2 . The sliding component according to claim 1 , wherein
the fatty acid includes an olein acid .
3 . The sliding component according to claim 1 , wherein
the fatty acid includes a stearic acid .
4 . The sliding component according to claim 1 , wherein
the fatty acid includes a linoleic acid .
5 . The sliding component according to claim 1 , wherein
the plated layer has Vickers hardness ranging from 10 HV
to 200 HV .
6 . The sliding component according to claim 1 , wherein
the plated layer includes tin .
..."
So, apparently, they've done some kind of work developing combinations of surface coatings, lubricants, and possibly surface textures, to the end of reducing friction.
Likes For rollagain:
#38
Senior Member
That is a minor disadvantage compared to gearboxes that can NOT shift under load. Except from a standstill, I always can pedal and shift a chain system.
#39
Senior Member
Will be interesting to see a fully realized version of this patent on a bike. This story came out already on Youtube, with a couple mentions of the patent. Im just wondering how long it will take Shimano to have one built up for testing. Wonder what the price will be as well...
#40
Cycleway town
Chains and belts are both draggy. I'm surprised to have never seen a crank biting a rim. I'm not saying that driving a rim directly off a crank is a great idea, or offering a solution as to how it'd be geared, just that a box between the crank and rim could work and remove a draggy relay device to the axle. And yet.. nada.
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Chains and belts are both draggy. I'm surprised to have never seen a crank biting a rim. I'm not saying that driving a rim directly off a crank is a great idea, or offering a solution as to how it'd be geared, just that a box between the crank and rim could work and remove a draggy relay device to the axle. And yet.. nada.
But the challenge I see is more basic: if you're driving the wheel at the rim, you'll still need some gears in the middle to turn the wheel fast enough and pretty drastic ratios, so you're back to the gearbox anyway. I don't see any way around that.
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Shimano develops a 14-cog freehub! (uh, in 1999)
#43
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Shimano develops a bicycle CVT! (uh, in 2013)
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I am sure the people who built bikes with no pedals asked the same ... and the people who saw Pennyfarthings get pushed aside by safety bikes .... Not all new development is progress, but a lot of it is. When I was a kid, a 36-pound three-speed was the best it got. Now I have a full-suspension MTB that weighs considerably less, and 22-speed road bikes which weigh half that. But there was nothing particularly wrong with the old Sturmey-Archer-equipped steel behemoth.
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Perhaps this is being developed esp with an eye toward the e-bike market where buyers might favor the low-maintenance aspect but not worry too much about a bit extra weight?