dmarkun

I came across this frame on eBay from a dealer in Torino who hadn't listed the maker. I contacted him asking if he thought it was a Sannino (Sannino's shop was in Torino) and he said it could be (because of the pantographing on the fork) but he didn't know for sure.

Tubing is SL with rifling in steerer and stamps on down tube and steerer. Rear dropouts are Campy with portacatena holes, front dropouts are Gipiemme.

The details are different from his factory bikes like: internal RD cable routing, chrome, lug cutouts, BB cutout, head tube angle is 72.5 not catalog spec 75. Really, the only thing that indicates Sannino is the fork crown. I believe the fork is original because in the stripping process I saw that all the layers of paint were the same, and the amount of surface rust was the same. I checked the pantograph against all the makers starting with S I could find and the only other possibility I saw was Suzzi, but Sannino was a better match.

The theories I can come up with are:

A. Somebody put together a nice unpainted frame and a nice unpainted fork from different makers.

B. From web research: Sannino left Gios and in 1974 started producing frames on his own, “in the first years he built frames with no thought of profit. He gave them away to local racers right and left, experimenting with seemingly minute variations in angles, fork rake, wheelbase, chain stay length." In 1979 together with three other partners he opened the Cicli Sannino in Torino. Maybe this frame is from this early experimental era. Columbus tubing stamp on down tube and portacatena holes could indicate pre 1980. But recessed brake-nut holes (front and rear) would seem to indicate later (but late 70s not impossible).



From a shop in Torino, looks rough, but is my size and price is good enough for a risk.



06-09 Columbus tubing stamp on down tube possibly indicates pre 1980.



38mm stack height. Campy seem to be around 42mm. Prob will use Tange Levin steel which is perfect size.




Internal RD cable routing



Chromed



60s De Rosa pix from web



Portacatena holes



This is chromed. Bolt ears were gnarly and needed lots of filing.



R brake mounting boss was too thick for campy caliper bolt and had to be ground down a little

P!N20

My first thought was Sancineto, but their S is a bit different. The Sannino S is similar too.

The Portacatena holes date the frame between ~1978 and ~1982; the Sanninos from this era appear to have a crown motif on the fork crown.

The stay detail at the dropouts is fairly unique, as is the chain stay internal cable routing.

I'm sure MauriceMoss could pin this one down.

Chuckk

Not much like my USA distributed Sannino.
Mine has Gios style, constructed seat stay ends, no circle around the crown S, and more.

unworthy1

Yes, let's get MauriceMoss on this one!
Aside from the cut-outs in the sockets of the BB shell (new to me) and the internal routing in the chainstay (rarely seen) the "fishmouth" stay end to DOs are important clues IMO.
likewise to judge build timeframe the portacatena holes but is this frame/fork intended for nutted style brakes?
Once had full chrome for a cromovelato finish I reckon

dmarkun

Yes, my frame is nothing like Sannino's factory builds from the 80s. That's why I developed the theory about an experimental period in the late 70's. Frame is designed for recessed brake nuts which would seem to date it later. I found this Sancineto pix which is promising, but most other details aren't similar - similarly frustrating as other Sannino pix I've studied.





I'm planning to finish as a Sannino because the pantograph is a very good match. But I'm a bit hesitant because I can't lock down who the builder really is. I'm not going to sell it, just ride it so I suppose how I finish it doesn't really matter. But I wish I was more confident.

Do anyone have an opinion about my "experimental period" theory?

Project is turning out okay:

unworthy1

I'm skeptical of it being an "early period" experiment (from any builder) since the clues (Portacatena short Campy 1010B DOs, recessed Allen bolt brakes, under BB shell and hidden cable routing, single WB bosses) all points to nothing earlier than maybe 1979.
There was another "S" brand that one of our members used to frequently mention (cause he owned one of the few examples) but I can't conjure up that name right now....definitely a rare one IIRC

tkm

The "S" on the fork is almost identical to the "S" on my Sannino fork in terms of font style, but mine does not have the circle around it. Otherwise my Sannino fork is really not at all the same aside from the styling of the "S".

The frame details aren't too close to mine either. You think someone took a Sannino fork and threw it on a random frame?

dmarkun

I was thinking 1979. By early I meant before he started his official shop with his partners.

machinist42

Perhaps you are thinking of @T-Mar who was fond of and rode a Scapin back in the day?

Save for the circle the "S" is very similar?





Other differences and similarities will be found at the source of the above pictures.

Random shot of through chainstay RD cable routing on a random example found here.




Hope this is helpful?
Good Fortune with your project!

dmarkun

tkm you are right about the circle. Never noticed that before until I painted it.
Maybe I need to take another look at Suzzi and Sancineto.

dmarkun

machinist42 this is very helpful. Thank you. Best match so far.

unworthy1

Not T-Mar that I was trying to recollect, and was not thinking Scapin ever built frames with similar features to the OP's but there ARE a few, plus (as you say) differences, too.

I think maybe Sancineto is a path to explore: did you see this thread with a much newer (possibly a '96) frameset with Neuron tubing...but has that "S" in a circle!

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...sancineto.html

P!N20

Yeah that's where I started, but no other details match. I know it's a small thing, but the Sancineto S is sans serif, as opposed to the OP's.

unworthy1

^ true that^ but things will change over the course of (perhaps) 17 years ('79 to '96).
It's odd that whoever this builder was that there's internal cable routing in only the chainstay, but not the top tube, plus what must be added cutouts to a common-ish off the shelf BB shell (used by other Italians like DeRosa but many more) and then there's the very unusual fishmouth stay ends, much more common in France than Italy!
Add them all up and there's no answer I can come up with, certainly not one with an initial "S"
WE NEED MauriceMoss NOW!

billytwosheds 

Not to wander too far from the topic at hand, but is that top tube braze on supposed to be a guide or a stop? It's being used as the latter, and my natural assumption would be that it's meant to be a guide instead.

dmarkun

Good observations. Alas, I will be forced to choose soon - when it comes time to apply transfers. I can't just leave it fatherless. Despite the S I am fairly sure now it is not a Sannino. Mainly because he seemed consistent with his seat stay ends (completely unlike mine); and his (early) dislike of chrome (which mine has a fair bit of although in poor shape and painted over); and I don't think I've seen very many Sannino lug cutouts (maybe none); and only a single example of internal RD cable (but an outlier). That leaves Scapin, Suzzi, and Sancineto.