Training for Racing All Disciplines
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Medina, OH
Posts: 5,804
Bikes: confidential infromation that I don't even share with my wife
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Idiot Emeritus
Thread Starter
Rain today. It hasn't rained much at all here this winter, but that doesn't mean I want to ride in it. Trainer workout, 1 minute over/under intervals X 5. It went just fine! Then I went to my chiropractor. She told me, again, that it's a good thing I'm fit and toned or I'd be in real trouble. Reassuring....
__________________
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
~>~
How Many Base Miles do You Really Need?
Interesting article in VN.
Seems that my old school coach's regimen of putting in those long winter base miles at a "conversational" pace to build into the hard work of the racing season wasn't just old-fashioned hooey after all.
What's next: Fixed gears for base miles too?
"First, an increase in base training volume improves mitochondrial size and function. This adaptation affects oxidative enzymes, which increase fat-oxidation capacity.
Second, aerobic training improves lactate-clearance capacity."
Diagnosis: How many base miles do you really need? | VeloNews.com
Seems that my old school coach's regimen of putting in those long winter base miles at a "conversational" pace to build into the hard work of the racing season wasn't just old-fashioned hooey after all.
What's next: Fixed gears for base miles too?
"First, an increase in base training volume improves mitochondrial size and function. This adaptation affects oxidative enzymes, which increase fat-oxidation capacity.
Second, aerobic training improves lactate-clearance capacity."
Diagnosis: How many base miles do you really need? | VeloNews.com
Senior Member
Senior Member
Rain today. It hasn't rained much at all here this winter, but that doesn't mean I want to ride in it. Trainer workout, 1 minute over/under intervals X 5. It went just fine! Then I went to my chiropractor. She told me, again, that it's a good thing I'm fit and toned or I'd be in real trouble. Reassuring....
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
6 Posts
Interesting article in VN.
Seems that my old school coach's regimen of putting in those long winter base miles at a "conversational" pace to build into the hard work of the racing season wasn't just old-fashioned hooey after all.
What's next: Fixed gears for base miles too?
"First, an increase in base training volume improves mitochondrial size and function. This adaptation affects oxidative enzymes, which increase fat-oxidation capacity.
Second, aerobic training improves lactate-clearance capacity."
Diagnosis: How many base miles do you really need? | VeloNews.com
Seems that my old school coach's regimen of putting in those long winter base miles at a "conversational" pace to build into the hard work of the racing season wasn't just old-fashioned hooey after all.
What's next: Fixed gears for base miles too?
"First, an increase in base training volume improves mitochondrial size and function. This adaptation affects oxidative enzymes, which increase fat-oxidation capacity.
Second, aerobic training improves lactate-clearance capacity."
Diagnosis: How many base miles do you really need? | VeloNews.com
Some of the "old school base" advocates had a rule that you NEVER went above that conversational pace, which in itself has some flaws. My thought is that it was put in place as much to keep every group ride turning into a race as for any actual structural benefit. And a lot of folks empty their physical fatigue bucket overdoing LSD (long slow distance), or their mental fatigue bucket doing endless trainer rides if they are in places where weather is an issue.
Moderation is not intrinsic in cycling.
There are a lot of layers that can be added on to traditional "base" that will improve and accelerate the process, and for some folks (like track sprinters) they will be better off doing a little base and more of something else. I like to keep a least a small amount intensity in my programs year round, there's a physiological benefit but probably more important is the psychological benefit of being able to mentally calibrate an interval and not losing the brain "over ride" of discomfort.
A lot of the "old school" theories were based not in lab science, but in the field science of trial and error and built up historical models. Big value to that. Ex rode a fixed gear in the winter and did "Y" workouts, and he came out flying. I tried it and it worked, Etc. Determining why those things worked with lab science gives us a nice starting point to improve further on that model.
Of course then someone gets sick and we toss it out the window
~>~
The club that I was in had a culture of early training ride sing-alongs with the paceline chanting "rounds".
Can't recall which "bottle of beer" is on the wall or out of breath to sing "row-row-row"?
Going too hard, everyone back off.
Now with some good science we can come back to re-visit what worked and why from that deep well of culture and practical experience and move "forward".
Assuming the Old School was all superstitious hooey is shallow and arrogant thinking, all too common today and distinctly 41-ish.
-Bandera
Last edited by Bandera; 01-04-18 at 07:19 PM.
OMC
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 6,960
Bikes: Specialized Allez Sprint, Look 585, Specialized Allez Comp Race
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 461 Post(s)
Liked 116 Times
in
49 Posts
Idiot Emeritus
Thread Starter
Idiot Emeritus
Thread Starter
Ex has me on a "low base diet", being one of his aforementioned "track sprinters". I had some worry about "speed endurance", not having a lot of base. Bah, humbug. That certainly has not been an issue. Ex's approach, as he described it, certainly has worked for me.
Oh, and today I had a gym workout, strength training. I do two circuits, with lots of stretching and rolling between certain groups of exercises (I think I said that before....). On the second set, I up the weights on the machines. I've been incrementally increasing those weights over the course of the off season, and today I did 205 pounds on the leg press, 60 pounds on the calf lift, and 80 pounds on the glute machine. These certainly aren't Kristina Vogel numbers, and I won't live long enough to see what she can do when she gets as old as I am - but I am doing okay, thank you very much! I thought today, after the workout, that I should set a goal for weights. I should, yes. I just have to decide what is reasonable, helpful, and won't hurt me. And when I should reach it.
I'm liking my gym workouts!
Oh, and today I had a gym workout, strength training. I do two circuits, with lots of stretching and rolling between certain groups of exercises (I think I said that before....). On the second set, I up the weights on the machines. I've been incrementally increasing those weights over the course of the off season, and today I did 205 pounds on the leg press, 60 pounds on the calf lift, and 80 pounds on the glute machine. These certainly aren't Kristina Vogel numbers, and I won't live long enough to see what she can do when she gets as old as I am - but I am doing okay, thank you very much! I thought today, after the workout, that I should set a goal for weights. I should, yes. I just have to decide what is reasonable, helpful, and won't hurt me. And when I should reach it.
I'm liking my gym workouts!
__________________
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
"Can you add a signature line please? The lack of words makes me think you are being held hostage and being told to be quiet"
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Medina, OH
Posts: 5,804
Bikes: confidential infromation that I don't even share with my wife
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
"These certainly aren't Kristina Vogel numbers, and I won't live long enough to see what she can do when she gets as old as I am - but I am doing okay, thank you very much!"
I like your thinking Sarals! You are morphing into a sprinter!!!
I'm on the same page regarding the track racing prep. I'm doing my own circuits of death this winter and increasing the resistance/intensity and time of each task. Right now I'm doing three sets on 2:20 with the intention of getting to the next station and moving within 20" allowing for 2 minutes of work per station. My watch has the countdown time on it and chimes when its time to move on.
I have two fused ankles which doesn't allow me to proper squats so I'm working on other parts of resistance to imporve. My circuit consist of bike in OG, versa climber, bike, rower, bike, upside down bosu ball squat, bike, box steps with wieghts. My long term goal it to increase the station time to 2:50, and on other days spend 1 minute at each station for more specific focus. Anyone see where I'm going there?
I'm also doing trainer and roller intervals once a week on each for strength and mechanics. One session might have me do 15" at 400+ watts then 45 seconds at 300 watts for 4 minutes. Herme's see where I'm going there?
I like your thinking Sarals! You are morphing into a sprinter!!!
I'm on the same page regarding the track racing prep. I'm doing my own circuits of death this winter and increasing the resistance/intensity and time of each task. Right now I'm doing three sets on 2:20 with the intention of getting to the next station and moving within 20" allowing for 2 minutes of work per station. My watch has the countdown time on it and chimes when its time to move on.
I have two fused ankles which doesn't allow me to proper squats so I'm working on other parts of resistance to imporve. My circuit consist of bike in OG, versa climber, bike, rower, bike, upside down bosu ball squat, bike, box steps with wieghts. My long term goal it to increase the station time to 2:50, and on other days spend 1 minute at each station for more specific focus. Anyone see where I'm going there?
I'm also doing trainer and roller intervals once a week on each for strength and mechanics. One session might have me do 15" at 400+ watts then 45 seconds at 300 watts for 4 minutes. Herme's see where I'm going there?
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,143
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1350 Post(s)
Liked 2,496 Times
in
1,465 Posts
"These certainly aren't Kristina Vogel numbers, and I won't live long enough to see what she can do when she gets as old as I am - but I am doing okay, thank you very much!"
I like your thinking Sarals! You are morphing into a sprinter!!!
I'm on the same page regarding the track racing prep. I'm doing my own circuits of death this winter and increasing the resistance/intensity and time of each task. Right now I'm doing three sets on 2:20 with the intention of getting to the next station and moving within 20" allowing for 2 minutes of work per station. My watch has the countdown time on it and chimes when its time to move on.
I have two fused ankles which doesn't allow me to proper squats so I'm working on other parts of resistance to imporve. My circuit consist of bike in OG, versa climber, bike, rower, bike, upside down bosu ball squat, bike, box steps with wieghts. My long term goal it to increase the station time to 2:50, and on other days spend 1 minute at each station for more specific focus. Anyone see where I'm going there?
I'm also doing trainer and roller intervals once a week on each for strength and mechanics. One session might have me do 15" at 400+ watts then 45 seconds at 300 watts for 4 minutes. Herme's see where I'm going there?
I like your thinking Sarals! You are morphing into a sprinter!!!
I'm on the same page regarding the track racing prep. I'm doing my own circuits of death this winter and increasing the resistance/intensity and time of each task. Right now I'm doing three sets on 2:20 with the intention of getting to the next station and moving within 20" allowing for 2 minutes of work per station. My watch has the countdown time on it and chimes when its time to move on.
I have two fused ankles which doesn't allow me to proper squats so I'm working on other parts of resistance to imporve. My circuit consist of bike in OG, versa climber, bike, rower, bike, upside down bosu ball squat, bike, box steps with wieghts. My long term goal it to increase the station time to 2:50, and on other days spend 1 minute at each station for more specific focus. Anyone see where I'm going there?
I'm also doing trainer and roller intervals once a week on each for strength and mechanics. One session might have me do 15" at 400+ watts then 45 seconds at 300 watts for 4 minutes. Herme's see where I'm going there?
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,143
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1350 Post(s)
Liked 2,496 Times
in
1,465 Posts
As Kristina Vogel ages, she will probably lift more weight.
The masters women of today are setting the bar for future generations. The younger women look at records and etc and say, I can beat that. And they will.
The masters women of today are setting the bar for future generations. The younger women look at records and etc and say, I can beat that. And they will.
Has a magic bike
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,590
Bikes: 2018 Scott Spark, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone
Mentioned: 699 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4456 Post(s)
Liked 425 Times
in
157 Posts
Interesting article in VN.
Seems that my old school coach's regimen of putting in those long winter base miles at a "conversational" pace to build into the hard work of the racing season wasn't just old-fashioned hooey after all.
What's next: Fixed gears for base miles too?
"First, an increase in base training volume improves mitochondrial size and function. This adaptation affects oxidative enzymes, which increase fat-oxidation capacity.
Second, aerobic training improves lactate-clearance capacity."
Diagnosis: How many base miles do you really need? | VeloNews.com
Seems that my old school coach's regimen of putting in those long winter base miles at a "conversational" pace to build into the hard work of the racing season wasn't just old-fashioned hooey after all.
What's next: Fixed gears for base miles too?
"First, an increase in base training volume improves mitochondrial size and function. This adaptation affects oxidative enzymes, which increase fat-oxidation capacity.
Second, aerobic training improves lactate-clearance capacity."
Diagnosis: How many base miles do you really need? | VeloNews.com
~>~
An excellent question with the answer: It Depends.
How much base does a Junior, Cat 3 who never sees anything other than a local Crit, woman track sprinter, new senior club rider or Nat'l team stage racer need?
Certainly not the same, but base can't be ignored for a well balanced training program in my opinion.
Endurance, Power and Speed.
What's the right recipe in training to get the tasty results we all crave?
This thread in the sub-forum is certainly a good place to share those recipes.
I'm off on the FG before the rain comes in, Granny's recipe but an old favorite of mine.
-Bandera
How much base does a Junior, Cat 3 who never sees anything other than a local Crit, woman track sprinter, new senior club rider or Nat'l team stage racer need?
Certainly not the same, but base can't be ignored for a well balanced training program in my opinion.
Endurance, Power and Speed.
What's the right recipe in training to get the tasty results we all crave?
This thread in the sub-forum is certainly a good place to share those recipes.
I'm off on the FG before the rain comes in, Granny's recipe but an old favorite of mine.
-Bandera
Blast from the Past
The interesting thing about articles like the one you link to is that they’re titled something like “How Many Base Miles Do You Really Need?” and then they turn out to be a single case study of a 25 yr old cat 1 about to turn pro. With the implication being that’s what “you” should do too, as if there are no physiologic differences between a 50 year old former couch potato and a 25 yr old professional athlete. Or that cycling discipline, or gender, or occupation, or the stress of feeling the “need” to watch your kids soccer game and also ride huge base miles are irrelevant to answering the question How Many Base Miles Do You Actually Need?
Bandera, I came up through a similar system of FG/Spin/LSD type training. It was in vogue in the running world as well (70's, 80's). My opinion now is that taken to extreme it leaves holes in development for some riders, ability to push a big gear for example.
A bigger change now is how many of us are fast, or working to be fast, well into our 60's or later. There is no historical precedent for that. You can't just say "this worked historically for old dudes so it must have some merit" because nobody was training hard or riding competitively as long as they are today. (Based on rider results on this board Ex seems to be onto something developing older riders, or is very selective of who he works with.) Those long FG or Little Ring miles were being done by the 25 year old Voodoo. He could go out for 4 hours on a rainy 45 degree day, take a quick shower, eat whatever he felt like, go out to the bar till 1, get up at 6 & go to work, rinse and repeat. Fast foreword 35 years, I don't see the bang for the recovery buck with a large diet of long rides.
Last edited by Voodoo76; 01-07-18 at 11:25 AM.
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Medina, OH
Posts: 5,804
Bikes: confidential infromation that I don't even share with my wife
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Finished up with these yesterday as part of an indoor program I attend once a week. Highest HR I've seen for many years! I could of died!!! The task was ten seconds on and ten seconds off at 100+ cadence for 1', 2', 3', 4" with easy recovery matching the interval time.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4qcp3maehm...49.43.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4qcp3maehm...49.43.png?dl=0
Senior Member
Finished up with these yesterday as part of an indoor program I attend once a week. Highest HR I've seen for many years! I could of died!!! The task was ten seconds on and ten seconds off at 100+ cadence for 1', 2', 3', 4" with easy recovery matching the interval time.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4qcp3maehm...49.43.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4qcp3maehm...49.43.png?dl=0
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,143
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1350 Post(s)
Liked 2,496 Times
in
1,465 Posts
My TSB was negative for awhile so I took five days off and then restarted Saturday and Sunday. We rode the coast in San Diego on Saturday and then Camp Pendleton on Sunday. 4.5 hours of constant power endurance / tempo riding total for both days.
No singalongs or Kumbaya moments. It was just constant power along with doing some cadence variation.
No singalongs or Kumbaya moments. It was just constant power along with doing some cadence variation.
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Medina, OH
Posts: 5,804
Bikes: confidential infromation that I don't even share with my wife
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Three rounds of the circuits of death followed with some ice fishing intervals tomorrow.
Senior Member
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
6 Posts
Senior Member
I'm thinking he's on 8+ inches.
As much as I don't like Zwift I may have to jump back on it. Tried one of those longer trainer sessions and even when watching LivePD I got bored senseless...
Medic to strung out person "What year is this?"
strung out person "Obama"
Medic - "OK, what month is this?"
Person - "Obama"
Sad to see
Person in possession of drugs... "They ain't mine!"
Officer - "They were in your a**, how are they not your's?"
Person -"They ain't mine!"
OK then
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
6 Posts
"Is this your (purse/car/wallet/back pack)?"
"Yeah"
Cop finds drugs/stolen items/gun in purse/car/wallet/back pack.
"That/those aren't mine."
Last edited by Racer Ex; 01-11-18 at 12:21 PM.
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
6 Posts
I think it is a bit easier to relate to older riders when you're an older rider though, with all that it entails, and it doesn't hurt to not be a genetic freak. I'm the poster child for hard work and directed training.
But the biggest thing, I think, in pulling the most out of someone's potential is to look at them as individuals, and to stay away from cookie cutter plans or dogma. The good coaches I've used draw out a map, then tweak the route constantly as things change.
There's a lot of myopia in this sport. Everyone analyzes success, far fewer folks look at the abundance of failures, which tend to be written off with a simplistic "not tough enough" or "not training hard enough".