Notso_fastLane

Do any of those laws distinguish the difference between flashing lights and strobing lights? (is it the frequency of the flash?)

I have seen some that were ridiculously bright and distracting, even during the day, but I've been practically blinded by police lights as well and literally have to shade my eyes when passing police cars that are pulled over at night. I get that those are infrequent occurrences, but emergency vehicles are more common than the bright (and equally annoying) strobes on the front of bikes. I've only seen a couple of rear blinkies that seemed overly bright, but maybe red is more tolerable in general since they don't seem to bother my eyes as much.

I've had a couple of people mention that might front flasher (that I rarely run in flashing mode during the day anymore, and only use it in steady mode at night, a Niterider 350) is bright, but I don't think it was actual blinding. I've stood ~10 feet away and observed it, and it's noticeable, but not blinding. I don't tend to run it during the day, because I think it's too close to being a strobe effect, and I'll just run it on steady mode most of the time. I actually have both a 350 and 500 on the front of my recumbent. I aim the 500 slightly higher (but still down) to extend the effective area that gets lit up by the light pattern.

holytrousers

You also seem to have a problem with me writing on this forum...
Your experience on that MUP is clearly hampering your rational thinking about this topic : you say you are interested only in cars in your vicinity : not all bicycles are that slow so this argument does not apply to all situations. The greater your speed, the further you care about bing noticed: cars in intersections, roundabouts, cars deciding to turn, even parked cars about to open the door will be alerted of your presence thanks to blinking headlights.
The argument that blinking lights might put another bicycle in between in higher danger is so irrelevant : it might have been the case on the mup when you failed to notice the kid, but that wouldn't be the case on wide streets with so many cars on them.
Blinking/Flashing/Strobing lights catch the attention of car drivers. When the Blinking/Flashing/Strobing is too fast and too bright that it becomes a nuisance, it misses its purpose, and no one is talking about that case ( at least i wasn't ).
As @Notso_fastLane pointed out, is there any legal mention of the frequency when a blinking light becomes a strobe?

BLR

Any flashing/blinking light is a strobe. Frequency has nothing to do with it.

livedarklions

You're quite wrong about that, I don't have the slightest idea who you are and don't really care what you do. I made it clear my problem was with strobing lights at a high rate vs. a slow blink rate which I don't care about. It was the strobe effect that made the kid invisible, there's nothing magic about roads that would prevent something quite similar from happening there.

I'm actually a very fast rider. I also have at least normal reaction times, so I can anticipate the path of a car veering from across the street. Please don't assume that you know anything about how I ride.

If I'm allowed to make assumptions, my guess is you don't drive much. If you did, you might know that your assertions about blinking lights being noticeable in daylight are pretty much total crap.

Miele Man

Totally wrong. The rate of flash is most definitely the differentiating factor between what's classified as a flashing light and what's classified as a strobe light.

Cheers

tcs

That's not an 'article'. It's the actual US law regulating bicycles. Section 1512: Requirements for Bicycles. Requirements. Law. Here's the part your Google-foo wasn't up to finding:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/1512.3

If your new bicycle was sold without the specified reflectors, its sale did not comply with US law.

Total number of bike shops raided to date by FBI for selling bikes that don't comply with the CPSC requirements: 0

Let you in on a little secret: unenforced laws have low compliance.

livedarklions

I really don't care about the technical definition of "strobe". A camera flash is also called a strobe.

The flash rate is what creates the problem. Your pupils cannot do 3 constrict/dilate cycles per second.

Notso_fastLane

And there are some lights that don't 'just' flash, but increase/decrease over a period of a few seconds (they are called modulating lights on motorcycles). They are, IMO, boht more noticeable, and less blinding. I think part of that factor may be that the ratio of the brightest/dimmest setting isn't as high. I think if bicycle lights were basically made to the same standard as motorcycle headlights that modulate, this whole issue would go away (of course, then everyone would have to buy the new lights).

Iride01 

Of course it's an "article". Articles are the written parts of rules and regulations. Check out bullet 3. More properly I should have said "nowhere in the articles."

Thank you though for being persistent with this. You actually make the point of my statement in the post you originally quoted.Even though I didn't realize to what extent reflectors were required, and that there were U.S articles regulation requiring them on bikes sold in the US. I'd always noticed when looking at various state bicycle laws that they required at least rear reflectors if not front and rear.

Of course the FBI has more things to do than raid bicycle shops. This isn't something for them to do. Sadly though many won't want to have reflectors on their bikes that look like dorky add-on's just to be in compliance with any law. Mostly things like this need to be voiced through open discussion as is this and other means of education and getting the message out such as the various cycling advocacy groups in most every state. Wouldn't hurt that any bike club be made known of such things.


The statement:
while marginally true, implies that punishment is a cure all. I don't believe that. It just gives us a few to point fingers at and feel better about those of us that didn't get caught.

I'll have to ask the bike shop if the bikes come with reflectors in the box that never get put on and are tossed out.


As for the regulations... these links present them better IMO.

One the actual CFR from the US government:
Electronic Code of Federal Regulations - PART 1512—REQUIREMENTS FOR BICYCLES

And a general breakdown of what it means by the CPSC
Bicycle Requirements Business Guidance
Which is more interesting if scroll down some and get away from the part that makes you want to say ......duh!.

Litespud

It's not so much about you crashing into things, as things crashing into you. And all the skill in the world isn't going to save you from being rear-ended by a driver with one eye on the road and the other eye and the entirety of his/her attention on their phone. I run a small blinking (not strobing) white LED on the front of the bike when coming in though town, because drivers are as likely to be scanning for parking spaces as watching where they're going, and if a small blinking light in the corner of their eye captures their attention for the split-second necessary to register my presence, that's good with me. I also run it when it's gray and overcast, or if it's raining, because I find that drivers tend to get squirrelly in the rain, and I want to ensure that they see me. I run a blinking LED on the rear all the time - I believe it makes me more visible. If I'm in a group ride at dusk/darkness, I switch it to steady as a consideration to cyclist eyeballs that are yards away. They're not the eyeballs whose attention I'm trying to get - I'm more concerned about giving a heads-up to the driver 100 yards away.

kingston 

I've heard all these ridiculous rationalizations before, and they don't make any more sense now than they did when blinking lights first came out. Just more fear-mongering based on nothing.

Litespud

Well, you do you Boss - I've been doing this for ~45 years and haven't been hit by a car yet. I guess I'll keep doing what I'm doing

Unca_Sam

You guys are meaner here than on P&R. Every lights thread devolves into this kind of nitpicking. I'm going to assume that some of you drive a car some of the time. I know as a driver that in full sunlight, most bike lights aren't bright enough to register before I take notice of the cyclist while looking for traffic I need to negotiate. Blinking doesn't matter. I also know as a driver that I notice bike lights during the day in shade long before I can notice a cyclist running dark, giving me more time to adjust and plan. Flashing or not, I can pick that tail light out from a quarter mile away. The same goes for oncoming cyclists, in shade. Lights help me find and plan for a cyclist in certain situations sooner than I can for a cyclist without lights with my normal human frailties. Are you going to turn on your lights every time you enter the shade from roadside trees or buildings, or at the beginning of the ride for that additional assistance to other road users?

Flashing lights during the day in shade just speed my recognition of the vehicle ahead of me.

kingston 

How did you survive before blinking lights were available?

jon c. 

When I was young we rode without lights. Lights existed, but with old school batteries they didn't last long. So we survived without them.

Now we have fantastic and inexpensive rechargeable lights available. They're really the greatest improvement in bicycling technology since the derailleur. I use them because it would seem inane not to. Even though I once rode without them.

Litespud

dumb luck I guess. I survived my childhood crammed 5-up into a VW Beetle with no seatbelts, but the fact that I survived doesn’t make it a good idea, and I wouldn’t recommend driving around unrestrained in a motorized tin can now, when there are safer alternatives available. Why would I ride around hoping that drivers see me, when battery- and LED technology enables me to become more conspicuous. So, I don’t see a downside to a couple of small bright blinking lights, unless you can argue that they Somehow make me less safe - I’d really love to see some reasoned argument To that effect beyond some blather about “only unskilled cyclists use blinkers” etc

kingston 

That's because you are an inconsiderate person.

Litespud

yep - that’s the reasoned argument I was looking for 👍

Iride01 

I agree with running lights during the day. Whether they are flashing or not, people need to consider the amount of light they are putting out. A very bright steady light with with a big lens is just as bad as the very bright flashers/strobes, which also come in larger lens sizes.

Both at times when aimed too high and with constant changing angles to me as an oncoming rider can be just as annoying. Even steady lights seem to flash as the reflector and lens focus passes through your vision.

At night, flashers just do not serve any purpose for normal riding. IMO.

Unca_Sam

You're not wrong, with a caveat. A flashing headlight is useless at night, but a blinking tail light has the effect of identifying you as something strange to other road users. Something strange in the road prompts most road users to slow down until their headlights can catch up to the strange thing and they can decide what to do after knowing what it is. It's been recommended many times to pair a blinking tail light with a solid tail light, to assist other users with judging distance to the light source. Think flash like a turn signal or 4 ways, not strobe like an emergency light.

Potentially related to this, has anyone noticed that emergency vehicles frequently include bright solid white lights with their strobe patterns? No doubt this is in part to help other users judge distances in poor lighting, both in motion and while stationary.

VegasTriker

I can't tell how much more easily I am seen using some basic daytime running lights but do know how other riders appear to me when I am out riding during the early morning hours in bright sunlight. I can tell a bike coming a very long way off if they are using daytime flashing lights, far sooner than I can see the bike and make out what is coming toward me.


I think there is a lot of confusion between the meaning of flashing and strobe lights. so I looked it up. One definition is based on the duration of the flash. I doubt any bike light I have come across actually would qualify as a strobe under this definition. Individual strobe flashes typically only last around 200 microseconds That's a very short duration flash.

I recently bought a newdaytime running light. It is a small usb rechargeable chip-on-board light with both red and white LEDs embedded in the COB. It has steady and flashing modes for both white and red. It's rated at 40 lumens but can be seen a good way off even in the bright sunlight of the desert Southwest. Unless you are one of those salmon riders coming directly at me, the closest you will get is probably 100 feet and then at an angle to me. If this disturbs you, you have my sympathy but not much else.

BTW, the county I live in began to install overhead and ground level warning lights at pedestrian/bicycle crossings in many places across the valley due to the number of pedestrians being hit by inattentive motorists. The lights flash at a fast rate and are extremely bright compared to anything you can buy for a bicycle. I'm still looking for the motorists or cyclists who are having seizures due to these very dangerous lights. None seen so far.

holytrousers

I ride 4 hours daily on really dangerous streets. That's around 90kms from home to school. where i live? 69 on this list, it's in green : https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/...ts/by-country/
I tested many lights, many settings, and my experience tells me better to puzzle a driver and stay alive then be civilized and die.

livedarklions

I have no idea what it's like to ride in Tunisia, but here confusing a driver is an excellent way to get killed.

You already said you're not running a fast flash or unreasonable brightness, so I have no idea why you're still arguing with me. I'm telling you that as a driver, I've never been in a non-foggy situation where daylight lights, blinking or not have made a difference, and the few strobes I have noticed just served to obscure the position of bicycles across the street and well out of my path. We're not going to convince each other of anything, and further conversation on this subject is pointless.

holytrousers

Well, to ride in Tunisia is like being in a jungle : always count +20km/h over the speed limit, law enforcement doesn't really care about safety on the roads and riding a bicycle in the midst of all this is like declaring war on modern civilization..
Yeah looks like we are on the same side on this topic. I've measured the blinking rate of my headlight which is around 1.5hz so idon't know if one might consider it a strobe, but it sure as hell helps me riding during the day. When on, 90% of car drivers in crossings and roundabouts usually wait for me whereas with steady light i find myself ignored 90% if the time. My point is that blinking headlights really help in daytime. I can't tell the same about bkinking taillights from my personal experience because they are not bright enough to catch drivers' attention...

astrodust

About a month ago I was riding in a bike lane with a blinking headlight, taillight, and high res Jersey on ,and it still didn't stop a guy from rolling through a stop sign while making a right and nearly hitting me.