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I need a new helmet. Why so expensive?

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I need a new helmet. Why so expensive?

Old 08-28-20, 08:45 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
Big difference IMHO, is ventilation.. to make superior ventilation airflow,
and still have adequate crash worthiness, is more expensive to develop & produce..
Originally Posted by Riveting
Could aerodynamic engineering and testing costs be a factor in a higher priced helm?
I doubt that additional production and R&D costs for the high priced helmets are more than a few dollars more than the costs to produce the cheapest helmet with the same helmet certifications sold at any big box store.
Does any rational person really believe manufacturing a helmet with better ventilation and a different shape adds even one dollar/helmet to the manufacturing costs of a helmet. R&D costs? I would be surprised if it added another dollar/helmet to the cost. Better attachment hardware might add a few dollars; fancier packaging and flashy graphics perhaps cost a few bucks.

Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider
how much is your brain worth? They could charge $1,000 and people would pay it. (*Suddenly has an idea*)
Helmet marketeers use to their advantage this emotional thought process to maintain the pricing structure and high markup for very high priced helmets.
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Old 08-28-20, 10:53 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
One interesting note though -- Kask has not adopted MIPS for their helmets, but will label their helmets (that pass anyway) with this new 'standard'. So they seem to think it's possible to not install MIPs but still pass and protect in a similar manner.
KASK on MIPS
That's actuallly more comprehensive description than I've seen elsewhere.
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Old 08-28-20, 11:01 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Good thing there is no connection between ventilation and comfort, then.
Call me old-fashioned, but I'd expect ventilation in a bike helmet as a given (unless it's one of those fashionable city helmets, or for BMX). My point was, that if anyone wants to get suckered into believing that superior ventilation justifies an extortionate price tag, the manufacturers and marketing people have done their job.
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Old 08-28-20, 12:25 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Monkey Face
Call me old-fashioned, but I'd expect ventilation in a bike helmet as a given (unless it's one of those fashionable city helmets, or for BMX). My point was, that if anyone wants to get suckered into believing that superior ventilation justifies an extortionate price tag, the manufacturers and marketing people have done their job.
Well .... if it SUPERIOR ventilation, it is better than average .... so it should command a higher-than-average price. As far as the price being "extortionate" maybe you need to look up that word.

After all the manufacturers are already forcing us to buy 1x. (https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...ve-trains.html) Now they are forcing us to buy expensive helmets?

Except, a lot of people have already disproved that .... in this post.

And yes .... better ventilation is something people will pay extra to get, because if a rider lives in a very hot region, .... heat is an issue? Does that make sense? Well, yes, it does.

With some possible exception of helmets sold as toys for toddlers or ultra-cheap Chinese knock-offs, Every helmet, even skateboard-style helmets have "ventilation." And every helmet meets the minimum safety requirement. We are discussing what might make helmets more expensive. Obviously a helmet which has more ventilation---more holes, less helmet---which is still able to pass safety tests is harder to design that a helmet with far fewer holes. How much that extra ventilation is worth, is up to each consumer---except in your case, where people are threatening you with firearms if you don't buy the most expensive lid, apparently.

Sorry, I did not take your unique situation into account.

But really, it's like saying "Safety" or "Protection." Yeah, very helmet offers safety and protection. But some are (according to whichever testing protocol your prefer) offer more than others.

You should move to somewhere where people threaten you with guns if you don't buy the safest helmet. Get away from those people extorting you to by one with more ventilation.
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Old 08-28-20, 03:42 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs

And yes .... better ventilation is something people will pay extra to get, because if a rider lives in a very hot region, .... heat is an issue? Does that make sense? Well, yes, it does.
.
I think the argument that was being made, is that manufacturers are intentionally making helmets with worse ventilation on purpose, so that they can have a reason that they can price them for less.
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Old 08-28-20, 04:26 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Well .... if it SUPERIOR ventilation, it is better than average .... so it should command a higher-than-average price.
Why should a helmet with allegedly superior ventilation or aerodynamics "command" a higher price if it costs virtually the same to manufacture as the cheapest helmets on the market?
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Old 08-28-20, 05:14 PM
  #82  
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So they seem to think it's possible to not install MIPs but still pass and protect in a similar manner.
MIPS (a privately developed, licensed technology) is not the only rotation/concussion game in town.

6D - ODS
100% - Smartshock
Bontrager - WaveCel
Fox - Fluid Inside
Kali - LDL
Leatt - 360
O'Neal - IPX ACells
POC - SPIN
Shred - RES
Smith - Koroyd
...and probably others

The term "regulatory capture" refers to the business strategy of developing intellectual property on a technology (patents, etc.) and then lobbying governments to mandate it.
Various companies have established their own in-house test protocols they feel best model the real world, and they are designing to optimize the results of those tests. Establish one mandated test, and products will be designed to pass that test, whether or not it realistically models the real world.
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Old 08-28-20, 06:58 PM
  #83  
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For what it’s worth, Bontrager has a pretty generous return policy on helmets. I think 30 days or so. I got a wave cell when they first came out. Ended up returning it. But it was nice to be able to try it in real world conditions.
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Old 08-28-20, 07:23 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by tcs
MIPS (a privately developed, licensed technology) is not the only rotation/concussion game in town.
[Skip]
Establish one mandated test, and products will be designed to pass that test, whether or not it realistically models the real world.
The only Helmet Test Game In Town in the U.S. that the manufacurers design their helmets to meet is the mandated CPSC certification requirement . It has been established for over 40 years without miuch change.
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Old 08-29-20, 07:27 AM
  #85  
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There is a market for $20 and $200+ helmets. That is why you see helmets that cost $20 and $200+. Do you trust you got a value or benefit? If so.. Win for you.
In my opinion, it seems relatively simple and low cost to meet the current helmet standards as seen by the number of helmets under $20. That makes it harder to justify or sell a wide range of different price points marketed to different income groups and cycling enthusiasts willing to spend more on the hobby without providing some type of add on to show a difference. Advanced features are added but they are not always measurable and repeatable differences like more or better airflow, more comfortable, better straps, more wicking, more aero, more reflective, more mojo etc. Some type of exclusiveness. Let's all be honest with ourselves, if Schwinn sold a near perfect helmet at Walmart for $18 that could in theory have the same airflow, safety certs, aero, and comfort, would people still buy the $200 helmet somewhere else? Yes because it is not a Schwinn helmet from Walmart. Nike AF1 and Jordon shoes are exclusive for a reason and it has nothing to do with shoe itself. We can argue the Schwinn helmet is not the same but WHAT IF IT WAS in every measurable way?

Last edited by u235; 08-29-20 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 08-29-20, 07:32 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
The only Helmet Test Game In Town in the U.S. that the manufacurers design their helmets to meet is the mandated CPSC certification requirement . It has been established for over 40 years without miuch change.
For now.. though I assume most manufacturers want to make just one version of each helmet, so would design a helmet to meet any and all certification requirements that would allow their helmet to be sold anywhere worldwide. CPSC in theory could eventually become the lowest common denominator (meaning the easiest certification to qualify for).i
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Old 08-29-20, 08:16 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
The only Helmet Test Game In Town in the U.S. that the manufacturers design their helmets to meet is the mandated CPSC certification requirement.
Meeting 16 C.F.R. 1203 is a mandatory* requirement to sell bicycle helmets in the US. If you look at bicycle helmets as a commodity, find the least expensive one that has a CPSC sticker. I've seen CPSC stickered helmets in the ten buck range.

There is also the ASTM F1492 test protocol for multi-impact helmets, which is what you'll want for BMX stunting at the skate park - or maybe if you just crash a lot.

The Snell Foundation has voluntary tests, B90/B95, and seeking a marketing advantage and/or trying to offer the best helmets possible, Specialized (and maybe other helmet manufacturers) designs their helmets to pass that.

There is the corporate MIPS AB test protocol. Massive journalistic and commercial publicity surrounding this testing caused any number of helmet manufacturers to pony up the licensing fee to adopt the technology uniquely designed to pass the proprietary test.

There are test protocols created by Consumers Union (Consumer Reports) and Virginia Tech. Rather than the pass/fail of the CPSC, they actually rank helmets according to performance on their tests. Results of these tests are widely published.

Okay, so you're the product line manager for helmets. The CEO calls you in and yells, 'Revenue is down for the fourth straight year!' I suppose you could shrug and answer back, 'It's that old CPSC test. It's a race to the bottom.' And you could go clean out your desk. Or, you could storm down to the R&D department and yell at them, 'Next year I want a line of helmets at upmarket price points that are designed to ace - do you hear me? ACE! the Virginia Tech and Consumer Reports tests!'


*You can sell a 'sporty' helmet in the US that doesn't meet 16 C.F.R 1203 so long as you don't advertise it for cycling. And thanks to the miracle of online commerce, a few helmets 'for cycling' are sold without 16 C.F. R. 1203 testing.

Last edited by tcs; 08-29-20 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 08-29-20, 08:24 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
CPSC, in theory, could eventually become the lowest common denominator (meaning the easiest certification to qualify for).
FWIW, the EU CEN standard, EN1078, is less demanding than the CPSC. There are helmet models that passed the CEN and failed the CPSC.
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Old 08-29-20, 08:47 AM
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Old 08-29-20, 08:57 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by tcs
FWIW, the EU CEN standard, EN1078, is less demanding than the CPSC. There are helmet models that passed the CEN and failed the CPSC.
I'm aware, but was referring to if the new standards mentioned in my post #69 above goes into effect.
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Old 08-29-20, 09:09 AM
  #91  
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I imagine a good chunk of helmet pricing is nothing more than fashion. We could all wear $10 shirts, but a lot of us don’t merely because we don’t like how they look on us, represent our self image, etc.
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Old 08-29-20, 09:42 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
As far as the price being "extortionate" maybe you need to look up that word.
FYI. Extortionate
adjective
1.
(of a price) much too high; exorbitant.

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Old 08-29-20, 10:22 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Mulberry20
I really like my Kali. The guys there are very experienced and the prices are more than fair for a great helmet that are top picks on CR.
I saw one on the street years ago and followed the rider to ask the brand name. I bought a "Maya" in bright orange. The visor had attachments for various lights and cameras. At a bicycle trade show last year (CABDA MidWest) I was told they no longer put that feature on the helmets for some reason. My only real gripe with Kali Protectives is that they don't make a helmet large enough to comfortably fit me. The "L/X" is just barely OK, but I can't fit a balaclava under it in the winter.
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Old 08-29-20, 10:23 AM
  #94  
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If you just look at Mercedes Benz, AMG Prepped, performance cars, you can also ask why are cars so expensive..
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Old 08-29-20, 10:55 AM
  #95  
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Except a lighter, better ventilated and therefore more expensive helmet, just means they reduced the amount of padding and cut more holes in it.
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Old 08-29-20, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by u235
,...... if Schwinn sold a near perfect helmet at Walmart for $18 that could in theory have the same airflow, safety certs, aero, and comfort, would people still buy the $200 helmet somewhere else? Yes because it is not a Schwinn helmet from Walmart.
This called the Rydabent Theorem. Sadly, it is accurate.
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Old 08-29-20, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Monkey Face
FYI. Extortionate
adjective
1.
(of a price) much too high; exorbitant.

extortionate adjective (https://www.dictionary.com/browse/extortionate)
ex•tor•tion•ate | \ ik-ˈstȯr-sh(ə-)nət \
Definition of extortionate
1: characterized by extortion

So, it depends who you talk to ......

Who is forcing (extorting) you to pay that price? Nobody but you ... so stop extorting yourself to pay extortionate prices.

We find common ground.
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Old 08-29-20, 01:20 PM
  #98  
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Look at it from a pricing perspective. If all helmets are under $100, and someone has a $300 budget, then you've left $200 on the table. If all helmets are $300 and someone can only afford $100, then you've left $100 on the table. If you offer a range of prices, then each person can match a price to their budget. Almost all modern pricing theory is based on some variation of this idea. I run a small business, and my products range from $50 to $100.
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Old 08-29-20, 01:28 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by Flip Flop Rider
how much is your brain worth? They could charge $1,000 and people would pay it.
Perhaps the top tier professional racers making the big bucks...

But, the grocery getter riding a $50 bike won't be paying $1000 for a helmet.

As a society, we'll be better off maximizing the number of miles and hours riders are using helmets, and that means trying to keep the price down to, say $20 to $50 for the average helmet. Hit $100 and one starts narrowing the market. $200?

So far I've ridden about 50 years, and never once felt a helmet saved my life. I've now had my old bike for just shy of 40 years. Riding a couple of different bikes now, but that bike is still with me.

Yet, over the years, helmets have come and gone, and helmet technology has slowly evolved.

I'd be more apt to ride my 50 year old bike than trust my 50 year old helmet.
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Old 08-29-20, 01:34 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by diggida
I imagine a good chunk of helmet pricing is nothing more than fashion. We could all wear $10 shirts, but a lot of us don’t merely because we don’t like how they look on us, represent our self image, etc.
I imagine some of our "fashionable" comrades would refuse to drink (or would spit out) the world's best wine if was given to them wrapped in a brown paper bag from Walmart, and like it even less if it still had a price tag of 89˘/quart on the screw top bottle. Same goes for the cost conscious fashionable types who would reject perfumes as a gift (either as a giver or recipient) no matter what its aroma, if it was known to be sold by Walmart at $5 for a six pack. Advertising and promoting the High price tags are an essential component for marketing boutique items to those very concerned with the price tag making a fashion (or self esteem) statement about themselves.
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