ArgoMan

Hi all. I'm planning a new crit racing bike and have a few options that I'm considering. My idea is to go aluminum. A bit cheaper on the wallet, with frequent racing accidents. I was thinking about a new Allez Sprint frame, but there's so many options. So I'd like your advice on the following:

CAAD13: I got a line on a CAAD13 for a really good price. But I understand that this is a more "relaxed" frame from the CAAD12. Thoughts?
CAAD12: I can get one in like-new shape, but it's about $900. Seems a little pricey, but I'm told it's really stiff and aggressive.
Giant Aluxx SL: Older frame (2006?), but really good price and it appears to be a really well appreciated, stiff frame.
Pinarello Dogma SL4: Carbon, but it's in great shape and a super price.

Let me know your thoughts. Thanks!

unterhausen

Moved to road from framebuilding.

tFUnK

I think the current CAAD Optimo is the one that's more relaxed. Any of the other CAAD# frames you listed should be good for crit racing, except for the previous generations with CAAD9 and CAAD10 where the CAAD8 was designated as the relaxed version, but the CAAD8 following the CAAD7 was still the race geometry version.

If you're good with going used, the Giant TCR ALUXX, Specialized Allez E5 were also race geometry bikes.

mstateglfr 

I think you should look at the actual geometry of a CAAD12 vs CAAD13 and decide which you want instead of viewing the CAAD12 as 'better' because it has more aggressive geometry.
I see this sort of thing a lot- Bike A is more relaxed than Bike B so Bike B is better for fast/hard riding. Meanwhile, Bike A is actually more aggressive than 70% of the segment's offerings and that isnt even recognized or understood.

Yes the CAAD12 has a lower stack height and longer reach than a CAAD13. Meanwhile, the CAAD13 has the same chainstay length, same wheelbase length, and same BB drop.
In comparing the largest sizes, the stack height is 9mm different. Just remove a 10mm spacer from the CAAD13 and you now have the same effective use height as a CAAD12. And the CAAD12 is 5mm shorter in reach. But without knowing what handlebar shape and measurements you like along with shifter style you will use, the effective use length is unknown. 5mm can easily be negated with what you select for bars/stem/shifters.

To me, the only difference on paper that will really be felt and cant easily be accounted for and evened out is the trail number. The CAAD12 has 54mm of trail and the CAAD13 has 58mm of trail. That may be something you would notice and may be something you would care about. Or, you may actually like 58mm of trail. See- the number isnt as aggressive, but that doesnt mean it is inherently 'bad'. 58mm of trail when combined with a 408mm chainstay is still quite nimble.


The CAAD13 was advertised as more aero than the CAAD12. How much?...no idea, I just remember it was advertised as more aero.
Two people can ride the same bike and come away with different views. Once can say 'it corners on rails' and the other can say 'steering is too twitchy'. Same bike, same corners, different views. Figure out what you like for geometry on a bike vs buying a bike based on geometry to try out.
One more thing- are these disc or rim brake frames? If disc, the 12 has QR and the 13 has TA. That is a deal killer for some people. No idea if you care or not, but I just mention it so you are aware in case you care.





TLDR-
- A CAAD13 can be set up identically to a CAAD12 in cockpit fit with a couple of incredibly simple and common adjustments to the spacer height and stem/bars.
- They have identical chainstay and wheelbase measurements which both impact how lively a bike feels.
- The steering trail is slightly quicker/twitchier on the CAAD12, but the CAAD13 trail doesnt make it some slow steering pig.
- If these are disc frames, figure out if you care about QR vs TA.

Keefusb

It has been many years since I did crits, but I would say go with the Giant Aluxx if it fits you well. I saw many crumpled Cannondale frames sitting around after crit races.

I would look at crit racing almost like dirt track car racing, You are going to feel terrible the first time you wreck a nice Cannondale or a Pinarello. The Giant frame is a quality frame in terms of light weight, crit geometry and handling, and if you wreck and trash the frame, you won't feel so bad.

And even though it has been quite a while since I did a crit race, disc brakes in general still make me a bit puckered with all the close contact, elbowing, and jockeying for position. Would hate to donate a finger to science from a pile-up with brake discs flying all around. Plus in a crit god help you if you need to choke the crap out of your brake levers. This would be an application where rim brakes and sturdy aluminum rims would be a good choice.

Germany_chris

You want cheap and disposable, you’re going to break stuff.

ArgoMan

Thank you! Exceptional analysis. Very helpful. I imagine that when all is said and done, in the heat of things, I probably won't notice a bit of difference between the two. As long as I get my positioning correct. Again, thank you!

ArgoMan

Thank you. And that's the heart of it, right? I'm gonna wipe at some point. I decided against the Tarmac frame for that reason. I'd feel terrible cracking something like that. I actually found an older Bianchi frame in great shap - Mega Pro Alloy 7000. I don't know much about it, except it appears to have a more racing geometry. But then same analysis applies, do I want to risk wrecking such a nice frame!

bampilot06

The 2023 emonda ALR is more aggressive and lighter than previous years.

I use a 2022 emonda ALR for crits, as well as a 2013 madone, and a 2004 trek 5200.

Been wanting to try a CAAD 13.

ArgoMan

Thanks. How's the Trek serve you during races? Find any disadvantage?

bampilot06

Nope. Honestly for crits I like the old 2004 trek 5200. It’s my lightest bike and cost me nothing to build. Running old Ultegra triple 9 spd on it.

The 2013 madone is aluminum. The geometry is a little slacker than the 2022 emonda. It is lighter than the 2022 emonda.

The 2022 emonda can take wider tires, it’s also disc.

I pick bikes based on the race environment. Typically use the emonda if the road is going to be rough or wet, the madone for smoother roads, and the trek 5200 for everything else.

Buy and race what you can replace. The 5200 was free, the madone was 200 dollars.


I plan on getting the new emonda alr frame, once that happens I will probably only do road races with it and not crits.

Keefusb

I believe that the Bianchi Mega Pro Alloy 7000 was the same or similar frame that Pantani used in the 1998 TDF. Supposed to be wicked light, even for aluminium.

cyclezen

Honestly, planning to crash is not a good way into approaching Crit racing. Can it happen? - Yes. Will it happen? - Dependz... maybe.
It certainly will if you don't have skills, and understanding of Crit Dynamics...
The frame is somewhat important, but as important are key components, Bars, stem, saddle, cranks, WHEELS.
My own experience is extensive for Crits, albeit quite some decades ago... But tactics and skills haven't changed that much. And I can remember 3 crashes, all pileups in front of me. Never trashed a frame, some light rash from 1, scratched up an RD, and twisted a front wheel after striking a guy who went down in front of me. I always preferred the inside line, which kept me out of many problems, especially those which were the result of others poor cornering.
Frame - again somewhat based on Old Skool, but things which can apply.
Somewhat shorter Front-Center, HT at 73 deg + (not below - my custom Crit had 73 3/4 deg on a 58 frame), ST of 73.5 deg, all current race frame chainstays are fine/short, as small a BB drop as possible, Mine was 66, but 68 is okay. The Shorter Front -Center meant shorter TT... which allows one to have narrow bars 38cm and a longer stem 12-13 cm. Makes for quick handling without becoming 'twitchy'.
Higher BB means less chance of catching pedal/shoe on tight corners - that doesn't mean one shouldn;t have cornering skills, but does help, sometimes.
so, 38 bars (for me, I do have broader shoulders), 13 stem and went to 12 in '85 when I became 'Vet' (Masters now...). Short nose saddle which was 'flat and had some forward/backward sitzbones support. Short nose allowed havng saddle a bit more forward that std road saddle and still be inside saddle setback regs (Spec Power saddle seems to mimic that now).
170 Cranks (as opposed to 172.5 on my road bikes), allowed me a quick spinup of rpm, and also added a bit more clearance for cornering. Many races were on old City Streets, back east, of very questionable quality. I was never a big muscle guy, sortta normal muscle type, and riding track regularly also had me comfortable sprinting at up too 140+ rpm, and apropos gearing to match.
WHeels/Tires, very important. Sturdy, but also comfortable. I haven't ridden deep dish wheels in a Crit environment; but my impression is that they could be more 'harsh' than more moderate section depth rims. Crit are extrememly tight formations, and often you will be hitting road imperfections which you can;t see, or not in time, for the first few laps... A wheel set which tracks smoother over this stuff means more predictable control. Hars hits when you're under stress from an attack can spell problems... Good, confident tires at a reasonable pressure - very important.
And the handling and racing skills...
Good luck
Yuri

bampilot06

TMonk

Racer chiming in here. Pick the one that fits you the best. Part of fit is going to be things like BB drop, HT and ST angle. I don't know those ranges off the top of my head but they're important. cyclezen above seems like he has some advice there. After that? It doesn't really matter. Chose the one that is the cheapest or the one that you like the most, as your budget dictates. I think position on the bike (aero), tight fitting jersey/suit and faster tires/tubes make up most of the speed. And legs. Don't forget that.

Also, a good way to make crit racing safer is to attack constantly. Get in a break. It takes more fitness and training, but as I've aged (Master's 35/45 field SCNCA), this has been my preferred method to win. I don't have the nerves for a big bunch kick any more and I prefer to leave all that behind.

Bob Ross

$900 for a like-new CAAD12 sounds like a great deal...or is that for the frame only? If it's for a complete bike with half-decent wheels and Shimano 105 or Ultegra I'd be all over that.

Any of the CAAD frames are practically the platonic ideal of a crit racer, and every CAAD9, 10, or 12 I've ridden was irreproachable. Haven't had a chance to try a CAAD13 but I expect they're pretty hawt too.

ArgoMan

Just the frame.

Crankycrank

IMO a Carbon Fiber frame might be better for crashes. Many dings and whatnot can be repaired at home for cheap with a CF repair kit. Quality shops can reliably repair frames that have been snapped in half much of the time for less than the cost of a new aluminum frame. Most will turn away CF forks for repair but most crit bikes will have CF no matter what the frame material is. Just something to think about and you don't need to spend mega $$$ to get a decent CF crit frame.

ArgoMan

Good thought. Thank you!

Psimet2001 

There's been a shift lately. Carbon is way more repairable than aluminum. Nice aluminum frames aren't as easy to get or as cheap as they used to be.

I wasted years of racing on really crappy low cost aluminum frames "because I may wreck". You need to race on what you train on. Pretty soon I realized I was spending an entire season on a crap bike because I didn't want to mess up my "nice" one. Years went by and ended up having to sell the "n ice" one because it held no use for me anymore and had no real value left because it was too old.

Get decent components on a platform that has readily available used frames that fit. That way you can repair or replace the frame easily if you pile it in.

Planning to wreck is a fools errand though. Sure wrecks can happen but tbh I see them so infrequently anymore. There are fewer racers racing and the ability levels are so widespread that the few who are racing are quickly drawn out and just not a factor for being in a wreck.

Road races draw the most wrecks anymore as people on the internet have been saying for years that crits are dangerous and road races are safe so all the people that don't know how to handle their bikes and never race only come out for road races. Stick to crits and have fun. At the end of the day it's just a bike and once you are a part of the race scene and community you will find there's tons of ways of getting replacement parts and frames quickly at good prices when needed.

Ride what you like.

ArgoMan

Thanks, but I kind of like aluminum.

Broctoon

I'll tell you what I ride and why I think it's an ideal crit frame. Mind you, I have participated in exactly one crit race in my life (it was on this bike). I use it for road races, club rides, recreational and training rides on all kinds of surfaces including occasional gravel roads, and even the occasional steep hill climb. You may find that the two bikes mentioned above are better suited to your purposes overall, but I'm describing mine as a way to illustrate some concepts that apply.

I have a 2018? model Cinelli Vigorelli Road. Vigorelli was Cinelli's track frame that was popular for many years with the messenger/fixie crowd. For most of the model's production run, it was aluminum, but in the later years they offered a steel version as well. Then they introduced a road version, also steel. It has the same tubing (Columbus Thron) and geometry (steep) as the track model, but with rear dropouts and spacing for a road bike hub, plus rim brake mounts, cable guides/stops, and water bottle bosses.

There's some discussion above about the ease of repairing aluminum vs. carbon. Steel is more repairable than either of those and is less likely to sustain severe damage in a crash.

The steep seat tube and head tube angles make for agile handling, although the tradeoff is a bike that's not as stable as I'd like in fast descents.

It has a fairly short wheelbase--not extremely short, however. I attach a trailer for my grandson, and the hitch that hooks onto the left stays near the rear hub does not interfere with my heel as I pedal.

It has a nearly horizontal top tube, which allows for low bar position. I happen to have a 10mm spacer under my stem and a moderate 90mm stem length, as I'm not trying to get really aero. If I wanted to, I could set up this bike to let me get pretty low.

Perhaps most importantly, the BB position on this frame is quite high--it drops less than most modern road bikes, which gives more road clearance for a given crank length, so you can pedal through turns. (50mm vs. a typical 70-80mm drop, for at least 20mm of additional clearance) This of course pushes my seat higher (for optimal pedal reach), which in turn makes me more aero with all other factors the same, but again, it isn't actually necessary to set it up really low.

It's not the most comfortable frame, certainly not endurance geometry. It is surprisingly versatile, and I've enjoyed it very much since getting it four years ago. I have no plans to replace it anytime soon, and if I were a crit racer I'd probably guard it with my life.

ArgoMan

That's a really nice bike. I have a steel framed Scapin that I build out a while back. It's a really light "Geoid Tubing" frame that was marketed as a "Pro Racer". Super light, all stainless. But I kind of use it as an everyday road bike. It's pretty fast. I put Zonda's on it with a 105 groupo. I guess I could lower the handle bar and put some racing wheels on it and it would suit me just fine for a CRIT. As for carbon, I just can't shake the idea that whatever I get was probably made in China, which makes me question the construction, and I'll always be wondering if there's some defect that will fail when I hit a turn fast. I know I'm just being silly, but I still have a hard time with it.

msu2001la

Just echoing what Psimet2001 and cyclezen posted above - I wouldn't base the decision on the idea that an aluminum frame is better for crashing. Crashes do happen, but this idea that amateur crit racing is some kind of demolition derby where guys are hitting the deck every weekend and then patching up their frames after is silly.

Trakhak

In a recent GCN video, a product manager at Wiggle, a major retailer of road, MTB, and gravel bikes, components, and accessories in the U.K., was asked how their bike sales broke down in terms of frame material. He said, "Aluminum, 60%, carbon and steel, 18% each, and the rest titanium."

I like aluminum, too. I rode steel racing frames for 25 years but switched to aluminum frames 15 years ago. Among the relatively affordable (under $2,000) bikes I've ridden, it's hard to beat the superior torsional stiffness and response of a well-designed aluminum frame, at least in my experience.