Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area
Reload this Page >

Ask your small, random, track-related questions here

Notices
Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

Ask your small, random, track-related questions here

Old 12-31-18, 07:56 AM
  #5426  
Kaben
Senior Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Hi guys, just been rewatching the UCI junior world champs from Aigle and noticed that in the first semi final sprint round between Hoffman and Cornish, Hoffman leaves the sprinters lane in turn 3 of the final lap. (See attached photo)

i was of the impression that leaving the sprinters lane,m after the sprint is initiated or in final 200m is a DQ. Have I got this wrong? Or does it need to be an “intentional” move rather than momentum taking you up track?
Kaben is offline  
Old 12-31-18, 08:41 AM
  #5427  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times in 77 Posts
I believe that the key factor is if it adversely affected the trailing rider(s). For example, if the trailing rider were attempting to pass and the offending swerve (intentional or not) caused him to let off the gas or adjust his path.
carleton is offline  
Old 01-01-19, 04:47 AM
  #5428  
brawlo
Senior Member
 
brawlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,210
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 288 Post(s)
Liked 76 Times in 57 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton
I believe that the key factor is if it adversely affected the trailing rider(s). For example, if the trailing rider were attempting to pass and the offending swerve (intentional or not) caused him to let off the gas or adjust his path.
In my knowledge, that is the general intention of the rule. But as anyone knows, or will learn, it depends on the commissaries. There have been some high level races affected by hard core adjudication of this rule where such a move is a guaranteed DQ, adversely affected rider or not.

I’m not a fan of the “nanny state” style of commissairing and prefer to just see racing played out......within reason of course
brawlo is offline  
Old 01-01-19, 03:01 PM
  #5429  
Kaben
Senior Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Ok that makes more sense - I have been super paranoid about even touching the red line during my sprints /Keirin events, maybe I can relax a bit!
Kaben is offline  
Old 01-01-19, 03:30 PM
  #5430  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,586

Bikes: yes

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 344 Post(s)
Liked 58 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by Kaben
Ok that makes more sense - I have been super paranoid about even touching the red line during my sprints /Keirin events, maybe I can relax a bit!
i mean, it really sucks to have a win taken away from you for a sprint lane violation (i'm guessing - i've never had it happen to me). recently, i was helping a young rider trackside, and i watched this rider lose a national championship (and a guaranteed trip to Worlds) for a very small sprint lane violation when this rider had the win in the bag - a very tough way to have one very small error cost an entire omnium. unless you can be 100% certain what the comm will call, i'd stay paranoid.

the current wording of the rule is (per USAC):
2F8 (c)
If the leader is below the sprinters line, he or she must stay below the sprinters line until the finish and all following riders must pass on the right and outside the sprinters lane. However, the leader may come out of the sprinters lane if he or she is so far ahead that there is no hindrance to opponents;


So it's not so much about intent as it is the effect. One can unintentionally come out of the lane and hinder an opponent coming around - relegation; or, one can intentionally come out of the lane, not hinder an opponent who's still behind you, and get no relegation.

A reminder, too, that this is "Once the sprint has begun." Former wording, I think, was "once the sprint is engaged." A lot of places use the 200m line as the place where this rule starts, but that's erroneous. How do you know if a sprint has begun? Well. That's a good question, and one of those situations where writing any kind of specificity into the rule is going to lead to a worse rule than a vague one.
queerpunk is offline  
Old 01-06-19, 12:13 AM
  #5431  
quidge23
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Can bike straps go onto road pedals? Im specifically looking at the pedals on the aventon cordoba (limited info.) and hold fast straps. Thanks
quidge23 is offline  
Old 01-06-19, 09:51 AM
  #5432  
Morelock
Senior Member
 
Morelock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 644
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 37 Posts
I think your stock pedals on the Cordoba are going to be platforms. Those won't be suitable for track use (or much more than riding around town in tennis shoes for that matter)
Morelock is offline  
Old 01-06-19, 10:40 AM
  #5433  
700wheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 645
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Originally Posted by quidge23
Can bike straps go onto road pedals? Im specifically looking at the pedals on the aventon cordoba (limited info.) and hold fast straps. Thanks
You could use toe clips and straps. I used to use them on road and track decades ago in combination with slotted shoe cleats.
They were similar to this: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Wellgo-Tr...raps/344423621

However I suggest you buy a set of clipless pedals.
700wheel is offline  
Old 01-19-19, 06:39 AM
  #5434  
Kaben
Senior Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Opinion poll: If you could only buy one or the other, do you think there is more value in a front disc or a 5 spoke front wheel (such as FFWD - probably couldn’t afford an io)

Other information to consider - I already own a 60mm deep front wheel ( DT Swiss). I predominantly race sprint, but may look to start training kilo /500m sprint ( for masters) this year.

Im leaning toward the front disc being more useful for setting f200 qualification times? Or is there really that much benefit to a 5 spoke vs aero spoked wheel? ( realise something like an 808 would be better but I already have the 60mm DT.)

Thanks for for your thoughts.
Kaben is offline  
Old 01-19-19, 08:10 AM
  #5435  
Morelock
Senior Member
 
Morelock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 644
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 37 Posts
Question 1 - indoors only I assume? If you're going to be outdoors at all then the disc doesn't really make sense.
Question 2 - stiffness. A 5 spoke is going to be stiffer than basically anything else. Something to think about

5 spokes generally aren't all that aerodynamic (relatively to 3 spokes or deep section "normal" rims) and have such a presence mainly because a.) stiff and b.) the iO looks cool and they gave them to basically everyone who'd ride them for ~20 years.

Everything you've mentioned will be sufficiently fast. In my own tunnel testing, the difference between an 80mm wheel, trispoke, disc and 5 spoke was a handful of watts. (5 from best to worst) the 5 spoke was the worst.
Tyre to rim profile matching is probably going to be more important than the wheel itself.

Just my thoughts though
Morelock is offline  
Old 01-19-19, 10:24 PM
  #5436  
brawlo
Senior Member
 
brawlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,210
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 288 Post(s)
Liked 76 Times in 57 Posts
Have you been racing? If so, how far behind 1st/2nd/3rd are you?

If you’ve got a decent amount of time to make up yet, your money and time could be better spent elsewhere. Bike bling is cool, but such a step is what will get you that last LITTLE bit to the top. You could probably spend less money on some aero wind tunnel time and net much bigger gains
brawlo is offline  
Old 01-20-19, 04:11 AM
  #5437  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 607

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
I recently got a Garmin edge 500 because of my powertap hub.
My friend who owned garmin 500 said that I can view Max Cadence, but I don’t see the option.
does anyone know how to view Max Cadence in Garmin 500.

thanks
gycho77 is offline  
Old 01-20-19, 07:03 AM
  #5438  
Kaben
Senior Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post

Thanks for the breakdown Morelock, very helpful.
It would definitely be for indoor use only if I got a front disc. Mostly for big competitions. Been offered a front zipp 900 with ceramic speed bearings for approx £650. I could get a front FFWD 5 spoke for a shade more but wondering if the 5 spoke is really much better than the 60mm rim I have.
I know it’s not something I need but would be nice to have decent kit for race events to eek the most out of my performances.


Originally Posted by brawlo
Have you been racing? If so, how far behind 1st/2nd/3rd are you?

If you’ve got a decent amount of time to make up yet, your money and time could be better spent elsewhere. Bike bling is cool, but such a step is what will get you that last LITTLE bit to the top. You could probably spend less money on some aero wind tunnel time and net much bigger gains
Hi Brawo, I have been racing only since October but I’ve not got near the podium in our sprinters league yet. Had a couple of 10th positions ( field of about 25 riders).
Theres definitely a lot more I need to do with regards to training and I’m in the process of sorting out a coach to plan my training properly. It’s pricey but worth it I think.
Target events for me start in September. Other than that it’s one sprinters league race per month.
Tunnel testing is something I have considered but I Wonder if it’s worth doing before I have got my standing starts nailed first or enough data to say what I find my weaknesses to be a in the kilo/500.
For sprinting I have a clearer idea of where my issues lie and the f200 times are one of them. I do much better in the match sprints than I do the qualifications.



Kaben is offline  
Old 01-20-19, 09:23 AM
  #5439  
Morelock
Senior Member
 
Morelock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 644
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 50 Times in 37 Posts
^ I think it just depends. There's almost certainly a benefit moving to the disc from the 60mm/5 spoke. That said, the 5 spoke is a lot more versatile (can use it in events that don't allow discs, etc) and the stiffness factor does matter for *some* people. That said, I'd guess the 60mm/5 spoke are very close speaking just aerodynamically.
Morelock is offline  
Old 01-20-19, 03:25 PM
  #5440  
Kaben
Senior Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Slightly tangential question, just realised that the front zipp 900 disc I’m looking at is at least 12 years old ( think they stopped production in 2007).
Would you guys buy/ride a disc that is that old? It’s mint condition externally but As I understand it they are filled with a foam substance - would this break down over time and reduce structural integrity do you think?

i do have a habit of over thinking equipment durability as a heavier rider ( 100kg at the moment).
Kaben is offline  
Old 01-20-19, 06:04 PM
  #5441  
700wheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 645
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Originally Posted by Kaben
Slightly tangential question, just realised that the front zipp 900 disc I’m looking at is at least 12 years old ( think they stopped production in 2007).
Would you guys buy/ride a disc that is that old? It’s mint condition externally but As I understand it they are filled with a foam substance - would this break down over time and reduce structural integrity do you think?

i do have a habit of over thinking equipment durability as a heavier rider ( 100kg at the moment).
Why not ask your question to Zip?

In the aerospace industry foam materials are often used as a manufacturing aid and removed before flight - at least in filament wound structures. I doubt foam adds any structural strength to your wheel.
700wheel is offline  
Old 01-20-19, 06:49 PM
  #5442  
Huskey
Great at turning left
 
Huskey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Australia
Posts: 82

Bikes: BT Stealth

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 27 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Id happily ride the zipp disc, I used to have a Zipp 950 disc before I upgraded to ffwds. But I would say that it seems very overpriced. I sold my zipp 950 For $400aud (same I bought it for) and it was in mint condition.

and don't not get the gear you want because you aren't deemed fast enough. Be aware that there are going to be better and cheaper ways of getting faster, but if you want to have the flash gear then go for it. It's your money. It's your hobby.
Huskey is offline  
Old 01-21-19, 08:45 AM
  #5443  
taras0000
Lapped 3x
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,723
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 325 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 20 Posts
The faom in a Zipp disk is structural, but it is fine if some of it is dented or broken down. It acts as a spacer between the two skins. The skins bear the torsional and gravitational loads. The foam just acts as a stabilizer to make the skins, rim, and hub act as a rigid box structure. By having a rigid spacer in between the carbon skins, one will be in tension and the other compression. This keeps both skins from being in compression as side loads areaput on it, which would make for a weak disc, as carbon is relatively weak in compression. Think of an I-beam. The central truss spaces out the top and bottom which are in tension (bottom) and compression (top) to support loads.
taras0000 is offline  
Old 01-21-19, 01:41 PM
  #5444  
rensho3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Ana
Posts: 279

Bikes: Fuji Elite, 3Rensho track, Trek Madone 6.9, Specialized MTB, GT MTB, Cannondale Cad3 fixie

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by gycho77
I recently got a Garmin edge 500 because of my powertap hub.
My friend who owned garmin 500 said that I can view Max Cadence, but I don’t see the option.
does anyone know how to view Max Cadence in Garmin 500.

thanks
I had the same problem, and then found out that while you can't see it on the display, it will calculate and is visible when you download the data and use Golden Cheetah
rensho3 is offline  
Old 01-21-19, 01:45 PM
  #5445  
rensho3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Ana
Posts: 279

Bikes: Fuji Elite, 3Rensho track, Trek Madone 6.9, Specialized MTB, GT MTB, Cannondale Cad3 fixie

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Kaben
Slightly tangential question, just realised that the front zipp 900 disc I’m looking at is at least 12 years old ( think they stopped production in 2007).
Would you guys buy/ride a disc that is that old? It’s mint condition externally but As I understand it they are filled with a foam substance - would this break down over time and reduce structural integrity do you think?

i do have a habit of over thinking equipment durability as a heavier rider ( 100kg at the moment).
I used a Zipp disc from 1999 until I broke it in a crash in 2015. I don't think you have to worry about the structural integrity of the disc. The big problem with a Zipp disc of that vintage is whether you can get parts if you have to rebuild the axel/bearing assembly.

I also agree that the price is too high.
rensho3 is offline  
Old 01-21-19, 02:09 PM
  #5446  
Kaben
Senior Member
 
Kaben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 106
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by rensho3
I used a Zipp disc from 1999 until I broke it in a crash in 2015. I don't think you have to worry about the structural integrity of the disc. The big problem with a Zipp disc of that vintage is whether you can get parts if you have to rebuild the axel/bearing assembly.

I also agree that the price is too high.
Hi rensho l, thanks for that, it’s definitely good to hear that they have a good lifespan. I’m hoping to hear back from zipp on this soon but I’m pretty hopeful they will say it’s ok to use.
The wheel has been converted to ceramic speed bearings so that shouldn’t be a problem, not sure about the axel though - you make a good point.

With regards to price, we are looking at £575 now. Do you think that’s more reasonable? I’m not sure how much it’s worth as don’t see many of them about. Corimas and FFWD’s come around on second hand a lot more often for similar or slightly more money.
Kaben is offline  
Old 01-21-19, 02:56 PM
  #5447  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,567
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1851 Post(s)
Liked 675 Times in 427 Posts
If it were me, I'd rather have the 5-spoke. It's a more versatile wheel than a front disc, even if it may not be quite as fast as a front disc.
topflightpro is offline  
Old 01-21-19, 03:25 PM
  #5448  
rensho3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Santa Ana
Posts: 279

Bikes: Fuji Elite, 3Rensho track, Trek Madone 6.9, Specialized MTB, GT MTB, Cannondale Cad3 fixie

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 72 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Kaben
With regards to price, we are looking at £575 now. Do you think that’s more reasonable? I’m not sure how much it’s worth as don’t see many of them about. Corimas and FFWD’s come around on second hand a lot more often for similar or slightly more money.
I think you need to decide what you are going to use it for. I only race 500 TT and Team Sprint these days. I only use a front disc if I am indoor. I don't even own one at this point; I borrow it if the race, like the upcoming Master's Natz, is going to be inside. I train at Carson indoor, use a FF 90 for everything but race days.

My wife was a Master's pursuit WC, and she only used her front disc outside once, at Master's Natz in Colorado Springs many years ago. It was in the evening just after a thunderstorm, and the wind was absolutely still. Under those conditions, she was able to win the silver in the 500 (Master's Natz), beating some sprinters who were using 5 spoke or 3 spoke wheels. Just to be safe, I went to the start line holding her Zipp front spoked wheel to change if the breeze came up. Her coach and still talk about the time we took the risk and it paid off. A day or so later she set a PR and won the 2000 TT with her spoked front wheel. Just to brag a little, that year she was flying, winning State Championship, Natz Championship, and World's in the 2000 that year. I wish I could have been that good. Oh, BTW, she did all that and is only 5'5 and 100 lbs. It seems someone put a big engine in that little body!

I agree with others that the 5 spoke may be the wheel you want if you plan to ride a lot on an indoor track.
rensho3 is offline  
Old 01-21-19, 04:38 PM
  #5449  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times in 77 Posts
Kaben, a 5 spoke isn't automatically fast.

Here is a 5 spoke that can be had for $500 new and comes in front a rear. Why don't people buy this?



Ask yourself, "If 5-spokes are fast, then why don't triathletes and road TT specialists use them?"

80mm deep lenticular wheels are proven (with wind tunnel "receipts").

Front discs can be very difficult to manage even with moderate wind gusts. They can be helpful in ideal conditions...and detrimental in less-than-ideal conditions (read: make you slower).


I think I'm gonna sponsor a proper scientific study to articulate and enumerate how "fast" a 5 spoke really is. I'm surprised that no one has done this being that the IO is literally the most expensive bicycle wheel on the market at $4,000 USD.
carleton is offline  
Old 01-21-19, 04:39 PM
  #5450  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 607

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by rensho3
I had the same problem, and then found out that while you can't see it on the display, it will calculate and is visible when you download the data and use Golden Cheetah
thank you!
gycho77 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.