SJX426 

I did a prliminarly search without success on the subject. The reason I am looking is that I tried to mount a Chorus Crank on a Campagnolo BB and the inner chain ring ran into the chain stay. The BB is a sealed unit. I had to put a spacer on the DS cup to be able to clear the inner ring on a Record Crank. The bike the Chorus came off of has a typical cup and cone BB. I don't know at the moment what the spindle length is of either one. Both are Italian BB shells.
What I was looking for was a chart on what BB match with which crankset. Sheldons site didn't have it nor did Branson in Seattle. VeloBase doesn't cover 1990's + cranks.
Pictures of crank in question.
Chorus with cup and cone BB
P1030056, on Flickr

Record with sealed BB
P1010554, on Flickr

Had them off the BB's yesterday but didn't take pics or measure lengths.

SurferRosa

I know the english versions of these ...

Victory 109
Triomphe 114

Spaghetti Legs 

Shield logo double cranks usually require a 111 mm BB. Later era, 9 speed and on (and I think even later script logo 8 speed) use 102 mm. It’s not too hard to find a decent condition used Campy 111 mm BB around, but if you want a new one, look for a Centaur. Usually around $40 from the British websites.

Edit after reading surferrosa’s post. Earlier C Record cranks, 1st Gen and Victory IME, will use 109 mm.

SJX426 

Do I have this BB in backwards?
P1030071, on Flickr
P1030066, on Flickr
P1030070, on Flickr

Or is this a mismatch?

SJX426 

Obviously something is off. See the rub? Compare to the cup nomenclature on the pic above.

P1030065, on Flickr

SJX426 

Does this crank bolt use a washer? There is one there but it really is too thin comparted to a standard hex head fastner.
P1030074, on Flickr

Choke 

That Chorus crank requires a 111mm BB.

The Record BB that is in the bike is 102mm and it is installed correctly. You shouldn't need to put a spacer behind it to clear the Record crank....but maybe the spindle or crank taper is worn enough that the crank is going on too far.

It's rubbing in the center, yes? If the crank is going on too far that would cause that to happen. Also, if the bearing is not all the way into the cup it would do that. Try taking out the non-driveside cup and hitting the end of the spindle with a rubber mallet to make sure it's all the way into the fixed cup.

Manny66 

I ran into this issue a few years back, the spindle lengths come in a couple of sizes . I had a few different Campy bottom brackets so I just swapped out the bottom bracket to a longer spindle one. I didnt pay much attention to it as I figured the longer one was for "Triple" so I just put a different one in and left it at that. I have several different Campy Cranks and I think it was the newer Super Record that had the issue.

Get a longer spindle length and problem solved.

SJX426 

OK so I assume from the input that I need 102 for the Record Crank on an Italian BB. That is what I have and even with the 1.5mm spacer, it still rubs.
If I get a 111mm spindal, the increase in spacing is only 4.5mm/side. 3mm greater than with the spacer.
If I get a 115mm spindal the increase in spacing is 6.5mm/side. 5mm greater than with the spacer.
Since the spacer is 1.5 MM, the 111 would work well and the 115 even better. But I should check chain centerline too.

102 with 1.5 spacer:
P1030064, on Flickr

SJX426 

I should swap BB with the cranks, which is what I was after anyway. The Pinarello has mostely Chorus anyway. I was shooting for Record on the De Rosa.

dddd

Do the chainrings run true on this crank?

I don't often see much in the way of spindle end recession into the crankarm on high-end Campy cranks from the 10s era. So it's odd that the small ring rubs the chainstay here.

Even if the spindle end had bottomed on the bolt head, I'm surprised it would rub unless the chainring were out of true.

And with the 10s crankarm hitting the fixed cup(???), something just isn't right with this particular 102mm Campy bb.

SJX426 

@dddd - Yea! I agree!

I pulled the Chorus crank and BB to put on the Pinny. I will try the Record bb on the De Rosa and see if it remains the same as validation.

The spindle for the Chorus is 115. I have another NOS one the same length. I may look for a 111 spindal and then a full cup and cone for the record with the same length.

SJX426 

OK I have closure on both cranks.
I swapped cranks and BB between the bikes. Both are Italian shells.
De Rosa and the Record Crank. I installed the 102 cartridge BB without the spacer. I made sure the torque on the NDS was 70 ft-lbs per spec. Torqued the cranks to 25 ft-lbs per spec (at least one version). All good. My suspicion is that I didn't torque the BB when it was on the Pinny. Upon examination of the bearings, they liked the axial load better than running without it. The 70 ft-lbs probably compressed the assembly enough to get clearance. I know it sounds strange but it works. I'm going to ride it.

Pinarello and Chorus Crank. Same story, installed and no clearance issues. In fact, the 115 spindle gave me 4.6mm clearance between the inside ring and the chain stay.

SJX426 

Update:
The last post did not include adjustment of the FD. The only one that can be adjusted is the Pinnarello. The limit screws allowed for the needed adjustment. The chain line is so far off for a 10 speed that the largest sprocket on the back forces the chain off the small ring on the front. The only way to keep it on the ring is to allow the chain to rub on the FD.
So now I hunt for a 111 spindle. Anyone have one in excellent shape? I will trade you a 115 that is in excellent shape!

SJX426 

Doesn't look like anyone is following this thread so I will use it to document my journey for the future.

I was offered and accepted a Phil Wood BB that appeared to be a 70-111. It turns out that with the cups loosely in place the assembly is just under 72 mm. That is great as with compression from the torque it probably is a bit less. A little protrusion is not an issue. What was not known is the taper after working with it, I believe it is not a Campagnolo taper but JIS. Hard to tell as there is only .11 mm difference in the beginning dimension. Now this doesn't sound like much but it can make a difference in he final location of the crank on the spindle. 12.77 for the PH and 12.66 for the Campy.

I started with a 115 Campy spindle. The PW is 113. But the cool part was the ability to adjust chain line with the PW. Neither got me anywhere near the right chain line. Here are the results.
After doing the calculations by measuring all the parts, the clearance between the shell and the crank spindle boss needed to be about 4 mm. Now it so happens that the boss surface and the mounting surface of the small chain ring are on the same plane.

This dimension appeared concerning as that is not much clearance!

I am in the process of truing up a Record hub with tubular rims. It has a 8 speed cassette on it. The wheel currently on the Pinny is a DA hub with DA block but with Wheel Smith spacers to use a Campy Chorus RD. The later is what I am trying to set the chain line against. When building the hybrid cluster, I ran ito the issue of the retaining ring only engaging 1 thread. I purchased a retaining ring to get to I think 3 threads engagement. Happy camper! With the Record crank and a 70-102 BB everything worked great when I added a spacer under the DS cup. This caused the rubbing discussed above.

Why is this relevant? I measured the distance from the DO to the center of the block on both wheel assemblies. The DA/WS assembly measured 2 mm closer to the centerline of the bike. The 2mm is really the difference between the Campy and the DA hub location relative to the DO.

Since the PW is adjustable, I set it up to provide the correct chain line. The DS cup ended up 4.23 mm inside the shell surface! This indicates a need for a 105 spindle to use the DA/WS wheel.

Oh and since I didn't really know what the PW length was, I bought a 111 spindle as suggested above. So now I have 4 that don't work.

Getting the Record wheel set on the bike would get me closer to the right chain line where I might be able to get to use the 111 (not likely) or get by with a 109. This will get resolved one way or another, including putting the DA crank back on!

Spaghetti Legs 

I think I lost track of what’s going on. I don’t typically get too wrapped up into chain line unless I’m mixing in unmatched cranks and I’m having rear mech shifting problems. When keeping things 100% Campy, I haven’t run across your problem. I will occasionally have problems with braze on FD brushing inside of crank on big ring and it requires careful tweaking.

My experience (15-20 bikes worth) has been 113-115.5 for Nuovo Record/Super Record, 111 (109 C record) for 8 speed era, 102 for 10 speed era. I’ve never had to use a spacer.

I start to wonder if there’s a physical issue with crank or frame. Does the BB thread in smoothly? If not, do the threads need to be chased? Maybe tapers in the crank are excessively worn. I have some 8 speed and 10 speed era double cranks around if you need to try another set. I’m In Charlottesville if you’re ever down this way.

SJX426 

Spaghetti Legs Thanks for the response! I think everything is ok. Just the wrong mix of configurations. WRT the spacer, I think I never tightened the BB correctly to begin with. I could switch it back but don't want to make the effort given I plan on using the Record crank on the De Rosa. I will try the DA crank and BB nexrt, just so I can ride it.
WRT to the threads. They are in good shape. I hit them multiple times with WD-40 and a paper towel. They are very clean and the cups were a wee bit loose afterward, spinning right in as far as I wanted to go. Here is an example of how far
Phil Wood BB in Pinarello Montello., on Flickr

Note the tooling marks on the spindle. I think they changed their tooling approach with more recent spindles. The stepped approach is a bit rough.
not in focus but this is the PW BB attached to the crank
Phil Wood BB with Chorus Crank arm., on Flickr

SJX426 

Final entry for this thread! Hooray!

A Campagnolo 70-111 spindle arrived today from the bay. NOS even. Installed and everything is nearly right. I think the rear block is too far inward but I may be able to get by. The chain may stay on the large rear and front small long enough to get up a hill.! The expense was still less than a crank and BB which will come later, maybe.

Update: took another measurement. Need another 1 - 1.5 mm to make it full proof or within the tolerance range. The rear block location relative to the DO is about that amount closer to the bike center line than the Campy wheel sitting in the truing stand.

dddd

I find that OEM-spec chainline is often several mm further out than I prefer, so I struggle more with chainline issues than anyone else that I know thinks is worthwhile.

Re-spacing rear axles and test-fitting lots of bottom brackets usually gets me the smooth and full-range use of the big chainring that I am after.

Road Fan

That Chorus is the first generation, about 1995. I run one on my Trek 610. It takes the Campagnolo 111 mm sealed BB. It has fantastically low Q.

The next one is a Record. It needs a Campagnolo sealed 103 mm BB. It has still a little lower Q. If you put the Chorus chainset on the 102 mm BB it will scrape the frame and damage the paint and possibly the chainstay.

Road Fan

And that's another reason I like to use a torque wrench sometimes. I've also had the experience that a too-loose BB did not fit well.

Road Fan

I think chainlines are worth getting right. Keep working on them.

SJX426 

Thought I was done then decided that it was too much on the edge. I removed the rear axle and moved a washer on the DS the NDS to get the block further from the center line. Now I have to move the rim back to the center line!
It works better but I believe it is still a bit short of nominal. I ordered a 70-109 spindle to move the crank one more MM to the center line. The total number of spindles is now up to 4 with one duplicate! I am not too concerned about the inner ring hitting the chain stay.
One more entry?! HA

SJX426 

OK I am DONE! the 70-109 ended up being a spindle for thin cups#! I moved the rim over to get it aligned with the center line of the bike. The chain stays on the small ring so I'm done.
Hopefully this thread will help someone with a similar challenge.

SJX426 

Update: Took the Montello out for a trial run of shifting to see if everything is set up correctly. Better than ever. the 111 works well, plenty of clearance and good chain line based on ease of shifting. One down one to build!
De Rosa is next.