For those with deep pockets
03-10-21, 03:37 PM
#26
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03-10-21, 03:52 PM
#27
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Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b ladyback touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem, heavily-Dilberted 1982 Trek 6xx, René Herse tandem
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I'm working on it, yes! Mine doesn't have the threaded "SKF" ball bearing bottom bracket, but rather an earlier design, known as the "Timken" style with tapered roller bearings. No threads at all in the shell, it's adjusted with a couple of jam nuts threaded on the shaft like an old Shimano adjustable cartridge. Only very early Herse bikes used the Timken style, tandems using it later than single bikes, probably because it was a more proven design. I'm told to use thicker grease in them than normal bike grease - like a moly-containing wheel bearing grease for car trailers or some such.
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Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
03-10-21, 07:46 PM
#29
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I don't think those are VO racks, but I could be wrong. Front rack certainly looks original. It doesn't really seem like a top $ Herse to me, but maybe this is what $10k gets you nowadays.
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03-10-21, 09:32 PM
#30
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CL ad = deleted by author
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Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
Vintage, modern, e-road. It is a big cycling universe.
03-10-21, 09:41 PM
#31
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Like I said.....
03-10-21, 09:54 PM
#32
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Curious what it went for
03-10-21, 11:30 PM
#33
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Last edited by unterhausen; 03-11-21 at 12:26 AM.
03-10-21, 11:56 PM
#34
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03-11-21, 12:27 AM
#35
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I don't know what happened to my link
1951 Rene Herse 650b Randonneuse! - Bike Recyclery
1951 Rene Herse 650b Randonneuse! - Bike Recyclery
03-11-21, 02:42 AM
#36
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I don't know what happened to my link
1951 Rene Herse 650b Randonneuse! - Bike Recyclery
1951 Rene Herse 650b Randonneuse! - Bike Recyclery
Looks like Justyne is having trouble making up their mind.
03-11-21, 02:59 AM
#37
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Yeah I said V-O but that was a brain fart, I meant Nitto, for the Front rack. It might not be a Nitto, but it's definitely not a V-O, mea culpa! I have one V-O front and two Nitto's and I got them mixed up in my head.
But I still think the Rear is a V-O.
The person who bought it is Justyne *****, owner of Bike Recyclery in Portland OR. They (sorry I don't know their pronouns) say the racks are not original, but didn't say what brand they were. Words and pictures here, which may be just the CL pics, I don't remember. The bit about the racks not being original is from a post by Justyne ***** to Classic Rendezvous Wednesday evening. I've asked if they can tell what brand the racks are, but no reply yet.
Edit: and now I see that unterhausen already shared the Bike Recyclery link.
Mark B
But I still think the Rear is a V-O.
The person who bought it is Justyne *****, owner of Bike Recyclery in Portland OR. They (sorry I don't know their pronouns) say the racks are not original, but didn't say what brand they were. Words and pictures here, which may be just the CL pics, I don't remember. The bit about the racks not being original is from a post by Justyne ***** to Classic Rendezvous Wednesday evening. I've asked if they can tell what brand the racks are, but no reply yet.
Edit: and now I see that unterhausen already shared the Bike Recyclery link.
Mark B
03-11-21, 05:24 PM
#38
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Ha, my brain fart was actually correct, at least according to Justyne, who replied to my private email, saying that both racks are V-O.
She's wondering what "model" of Herse this is, since it doesn't have internal routing for the rear brake. I know Herse had named models in later years, but back in the early '50s? No idea. Anyone here with the big Herse book, or other historical info, care to weigh in on whether this is a known model?
Mark B
She's wondering what "model" of Herse this is, since it doesn't have internal routing for the rear brake. I know Herse had named models in later years, but back in the early '50s? No idea. Anyone here with the big Herse book, or other historical info, care to weigh in on whether this is a known model?
Mark B
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03-11-21, 06:01 PM
#39
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Ha, my brain fart was actually correct, at least according to Justyne, who replied to my private email, saying that both racks are V-O.
She's wondering what "model" of Herse this is, since it doesn't have internal routing for the rear brake. I know Herse had named models in later years, but back in the early '50s? No idea. Anyone here with the big Herse book, or other historical info, care to weigh in on whether this is a known model?
Mark B
She's wondering what "model" of Herse this is, since it doesn't have internal routing for the rear brake. I know Herse had named models in later years, but back in the early '50s? No idea. Anyone here with the big Herse book, or other historical info, care to weigh in on whether this is a known model?
Mark B
03-11-21, 06:19 PM
#40
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I'm looking at the 1960 Herse Fédéral in BQ #27 (Spring '09), frame is a good match except for a cable-operated F. der., and Speedy tubing rather than Vitus.
As I understand it, a Fédéral wouldn't normally have the Herse cranks (and special BB) or stem, so maybe this one was upgraded before it left the atelier (buyer ticked all the extra-cost options boxes), or maybe the hi-zoot goodies were put on later.
What I don't know is whether there was a Fédéral model in '51. Or could there have been a mid-priced model between the Fédéral and the top o' the line?
Of course we're just taking the seller's word for it that this is a '51, but it seems reasonable. Can one tell by the serial number? Someone should ask Heine, though I think I have exhausted my interest in this particular bike. If I'm boring myself, I know most everyone else dropped off long ago!
Mark B
As I understand it, a Fédéral wouldn't normally have the Herse cranks (and special BB) or stem, so maybe this one was upgraded before it left the atelier (buyer ticked all the extra-cost options boxes), or maybe the hi-zoot goodies were put on later.
What I don't know is whether there was a Fédéral model in '51. Or could there have been a mid-priced model between the Fédéral and the top o' the line?
Of course we're just taking the seller's word for it that this is a '51, but it seems reasonable. Can one tell by the serial number? Someone should ask Heine, though I think I have exhausted my interest in this particular bike. If I'm boring myself, I know most everyone else dropped off long ago!
Mark B
03-11-21, 06:42 PM
#41
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I'm looking at the 1960 Herse Fédéral in BQ #27 (Spring '09), frame is a good match except for a cable-operated F. der., and Speedy tubing rather than Vitus.
As I understand it, a Fédéral wouldn't normally have the Herse cranks (and special BB) or stem, so maybe this one was upgraded before it left the atelier (buyer ticked all the extra-cost options boxes), or maybe the hi-zoot goodies were put on later.
What I don't know is whether there was a Fédéral model in '51. Or could there have been a mid-priced model between the Fédéral and the top o' the line?
Of course we're just taking the seller's word for it that this is a '51, but it seems reasonable. Can one tell by the serial number? Someone should ask Heine, though I think I have exhausted my interest in this particular bike. If I'm boring myself, I know most everyone else dropped off long ago!
Mark B
As I understand it, a Fédéral wouldn't normally have the Herse cranks (and special BB) or stem, so maybe this one was upgraded before it left the atelier (buyer ticked all the extra-cost options boxes), or maybe the hi-zoot goodies were put on later.
What I don't know is whether there was a Fédéral model in '51. Or could there have been a mid-priced model between the Fédéral and the top o' the line?
Of course we're just taking the seller's word for it that this is a '51, but it seems reasonable. Can one tell by the serial number? Someone should ask Heine, though I think I have exhausted my interest in this particular bike. If I'm boring myself, I know most everyone else dropped off long ago!
Mark B
03-11-21, 06:47 PM
#42
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03-11-21, 06:53 PM
#43
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Front and rear racks appear to be Velo-Orange. For $10k I'd expect a little nicer racks -- also both pedals should come with dust caps at that price!!
Jan Heine, who owns the Rene Herse name, has had at least one modern Herse repro made by an American framebuilder, I'm forgetting now, was it Ouellette? It has the carbon brush in the head tube.
A number of other guys are making that feature too, like Hahn Rossman. Not cheap (I assume) but totally do-able. Japanese constructeur Hirose has sadly passed away, but up until recent years he made bikes with that feature. John Clay is an amateur garage builder who has made himself one or more frames with the HT internal connection, done a little differently (I think Clay did it the Hirose way). I've seen a few other one-offs as well. I'm pretty sure Rossman will even sell you the parts to give your framebuilder, if you're not buying a Rossman, so you don't have to re-invent it. He offered me a set anyway.
Mark B in Seattle
Jan Heine, who owns the Rene Herse name, has had at least one modern Herse repro made by an American framebuilder, I'm forgetting now, was it Ouellette? It has the carbon brush in the head tube.
A number of other guys are making that feature too, like Hahn Rossman. Not cheap (I assume) but totally do-able. Japanese constructeur Hirose has sadly passed away, but up until recent years he made bikes with that feature. John Clay is an amateur garage builder who has made himself one or more frames with the HT internal connection, done a little differently (I think Clay did it the Hirose way). I've seen a few other one-offs as well. I'm pretty sure Rossman will even sell you the parts to give your framebuilder, if you're not buying a Rossman, so you don't have to re-invent it. He offered me a set anyway.
Mark B in Seattle
03-11-21, 07:06 PM
#44
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Jamie Swan on Long Island is also making a copper-brush in the head tube system. He has a complete photo set documenting it on flickr.
03-11-21, 07:06 PM
#45
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Ach, I should have known I couldn't leave it alone, so here I am replying to my own post again <sigh>
I forgot I had this compilation of Herse catalog translations and other documentation from Heiko Strömer of Germany.
"1952 René Herse Catalogue page 4
Fédéral (new model)
"D'un prix plus modeste, je n'envie rien à mes frères aînés, puisque
construit entièrement sur mesure et que de 8 vitesses je suis équipé."
"Of a more modest price, I don't envy anything to my elder
brothers, since I am entirely made to measure and equipped with 8
speeds."
So if the bike in question really is a '51, and if the Fédéral really was a new model for '52 as Herr Strömer has it, then maybe this bike isn't a Fédéral.
But then (quoting Herr Strömer):
Oh, and about what I said about the Fédéral not having Herse cranks and stem? Wrong! Here's the '52 catalog page for the Fédéral. Note that it comes with Herse cranks and stem, like Justyne's. And the tubing decal is too vague to read in the Rebour drawing, but it does sorta look like a Vitus.
So, do we have a winner?
Many thanks to Heiko Strömer for his painstaking research, the translations, and the catalog pages on Flickr that he also put a huge amount of work into scanning and cleaning up. What a fantastic resource.
Mark B
I forgot I had this compilation of Herse catalog translations and other documentation from Heiko Strömer of Germany.
"1952 René Herse Catalogue page 4
Fédéral (new model)
"D'un prix plus modeste, je n'envie rien à mes frères aînés, puisque
construit entièrement sur mesure et que de 8 vitesses je suis équipé."
"Of a more modest price, I don't envy anything to my elder
brothers, since I am entirely made to measure and equipped with 8
speeds."
So if the bike in question really is a '51, and if the Fédéral really was a new model for '52 as Herr Strömer has it, then maybe this bike isn't a Fédéral.
But then (quoting Herr Strömer):
When looking at the bicycle models always keep in mind that
"Herse did not really offer specific bicycle models, but made the
bikes to the customer's specification" (Heine). Many of the bicycles
shown in these catalogues where special built show–bicycles, often
sold after the shows. The catalogue models just served as
inspiration or examples of what was available/possible.
About how the year of the catalog was determined to be '52, he writes:"Herse did not really offer specific bicycle models, but made the
bikes to the customer's specification" (Heine). Many of the bicycles
shown in these catalogues where special built show–bicycles, often
sold after the shows. The catalogue models just served as
inspiration or examples of what was available/possible.
As there are no René Herse advertisements indicating a new
catalogue at the beginning of the 50s, the publication date of this
catalogue has to be determined by its content.
Based on the information from various articles in "Le Cycle" this
catalogue definitely shows an intended 1952 model range:
– motorized models were first shown during 1951, tandem in May,
single in Oct.
– "Federal" model prototype was introduced Nov. 17th 1951
– same with wingnut mounted taillight.
As these things are illustrated in the catalogue, it can not show a
1951 or earlier model range.
– motorized models were dropped during 1952 but are shown in
the catalogue
– seattube mounted JOS taillights on Herse bicycles were
introduced Oct. 1952 (part of the 1953 model range) but are not
shown in the catalogue.
That's why this catalogue can not show a 1953 or later model range.
The only remaining year is 1952.
While "model range 1952" is a solid data, publication date is not. In
theory it could have been published on any date after Nov. 17th
1951. In practice the latest publication date is limited by such a
catalogue sold on Ebay UK in Dec. 2016. It was accompanied by a
1953 price list. Mark Bulgier saved the auction photos (Thank you!!).
https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/Herse/
Sounds like the guy did his homework!catalogue at the beginning of the 50s, the publication date of this
catalogue has to be determined by its content.
Based on the information from various articles in "Le Cycle" this
catalogue definitely shows an intended 1952 model range:
– motorized models were first shown during 1951, tandem in May,
single in Oct.
– "Federal" model prototype was introduced Nov. 17th 1951
– same with wingnut mounted taillight.
As these things are illustrated in the catalogue, it can not show a
1951 or earlier model range.
– motorized models were dropped during 1952 but are shown in
the catalogue
– seattube mounted JOS taillights on Herse bicycles were
introduced Oct. 1952 (part of the 1953 model range) but are not
shown in the catalogue.
That's why this catalogue can not show a 1953 or later model range.
The only remaining year is 1952.
While "model range 1952" is a solid data, publication date is not. In
theory it could have been published on any date after Nov. 17th
1951. In practice the latest publication date is limited by such a
catalogue sold on Ebay UK in Dec. 2016. It was accompanied by a
1953 price list. Mark Bulgier saved the auction photos (Thank you!!).
https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/Herse/
Oh, and about what I said about the Fédéral not having Herse cranks and stem? Wrong! Here's the '52 catalog page for the Fédéral. Note that it comes with Herse cranks and stem, like Justyne's. And the tubing decal is too vague to read in the Rebour drawing, but it does sorta look like a Vitus.
So, do we have a winner?
Many thanks to Heiko Strömer for his painstaking research, the translations, and the catalog pages on Flickr that he also put a huge amount of work into scanning and cleaning up. What a fantastic resource.
Mark B
