PaulRivers

It took you until page 12 to feel that way??

Here's a better explanation of the point I think you were thinking of.

For some sports lifting is detrimental - like boxing.
For some sport lifting doesn't help.
For some sports lifting is pretty common (like football)...but it's still just a small component of what they do.

What they're trying to pretend is that guys like these guys:




Are going to go to the gym and have the same injury rate throwing 200lbs/400lbs on their back that these guys would have -

Football team warming up:

Another team warming up:

Another team practicing:

Just non-lifting warmups/workouts several days/week would greatly improve the injury rate for lifting. And that's before -
- Age, easier to avoid injury when you're younger.
- Genetics - a well funded / serious sports team is only going to have the people with good genetics for athletics.
- Other issues with self-reporting and trying to discern a conclusion from a self-selection non-random group.

OBoile

The study wasn't flawed, and was on people practicing the sport in question. It's not unreasonable in the least to expect a study of an athletic movement to be done using athletes.
All of which have turned out to be flawed and/or dishonest.
It's crappy evidence. If you get rained on in the desert, it doesn't mean it's common.
While not ideal, it isn't disingenuous.
Why do you assume it was 15-21 year olds in the 9 studies reviewed?
An assumption on your part. You don't know what they're doing.
First, that's describes many people who have taken up the sport of powerlifting. I did pretty much this exact thing. Second, people actually competing are far more likely to push their limits than regular people at the gym.
So good genetics for a team sport somehow make you less injury prone in the gym? Do you have any evidence of this?
You realize that your 3 (or now suddenly 5?) people isn't exactly an extensive set upon which to base conclusions on right?
That's a strawman argument if there ever was one.

I said "many" because that is the truth. As to why not all do, you'd have to ask them. I'm sure some don't for valid reasons while others are lazy or ignorant. There are likely many sports where lifting is of little benefit (possibly cycling for one). No reward makes the risk/reward ratio pretty bad.
This is simply false. This wasn't my point at all. You inferred incorrectly, or, more likely, are being intentionally dishonest here.
Lots of seriously athletes are in their late 20s or older. Some probably do have a professional training them. Again, can you find any evidence that good genetics for a sport makes someone less injury prone in the gym. Again, my whole point was that if athletes who's multi-million dollar career depends on them being healthy are willing to squat, it probably isn't as dangerous as you make it out to be.
Please give an example.
Odd, based on the length of this post, you seem to have plenty of time.
I don't spend any time on political forms. Again, you're the one being dishonest here.

Why would he suggest something that is so dangerous?
So now your argument depends on both me and him being dishonest.
The majority of evidence, but anecdotal and actually studies seem to indicate otherwise.


My experience has been that the vast majority of personal trainers are pro-free weights and pro-compound movements.

Do keep in mind: by your own admission, your gym experience is far less than mine.


Interesting that you don't see how your entire argument is based on this. Also, this is a poor analogy since my comment was about an entire sport. There are hundreds of masters lifters in my province.
You would be wrong.



That isn't what I've said ever. But you'll no doubt keep pretending it is.
What you originally said was that lifting weights is dangerous because you and two people you know got hurt. What I pointed out in reply was that what studies there are indicate lifting weights is no more dangerous than other common sports.


Again the study was not flawed and there is nothing manipulative about pointing out the extreme limitations to your anecdotal evidence. Nor is there anything manipulative about pointing out my, similarly limited, anecdotal evidence that contradicts yours.
I claim you should put more faith in scientific data than a singular experience. The fact that it is cold outside today doesn't disprove global warming. The fact that you know someone who got hurt doing something doesn't make it inherently dangerous.

I know lots of famous online lifting programs. 5/3/1, smolov, 5x5, starting strength, stronglifts, sheiko, westside, Joe Defranco's programs etc. I'm not aware of any that suggests beginners lift near their max. I'd love to know where you got this advice?
Perhaps you can share some examples of this bad advice so we'll know what to avoid?

I don't know anyone who says lifting weights, or any other physical activity, is risk free.

Ultimately it comes down to this. You say lifting weights is really dangerous based on your experience and that of a couple of people you know. I say the risk involved is fairly low based on a scientific review of 9 separate studies of injury rates, over a decade of personal involvement in the field, friendships with dozens of competitive lifters, the fact that athletes are willing to risk their extremely valuable careers to lift in the offseason, the fact that many coaches recommend squats and other heavy compound lifts and the simple fact that gyms manage to stay in business despite allowing this "dangerous activity" to continue.

It's pretty clear which side has the preponderance of evidence.

Seattle Forrest

@OBoile, you have the patience of a saint.

CDC, NIH, and pretty much everyone else recommends that everybody who can should get 150 minutes of cardiovascular exercise and 2 resistance training sessions per week.

OBoile

You and me both.

OBoile

But, but, following the CDC's advice is just the kind of thing those anti-vaxx people do.

It's a slow work week for me. I'll probably give up soon. It's clear that nothing is going to change that guy's mind.

Edit to add: if you think this is bad, you should see the kinds of things they say about cycling on weight lifting forms. It will wreck your back, wreck your knees, ruin all your "gains" and make you impotent. That is, if you are lucking enough to not get hit by a car.

Seattle Forrest

I can personally attest that cycling doesn't make you impotent.

OBoile

Me too. And since those commercials always say it affects 1 man in 3, I guess the next guy that posts here is in trouble.

woodcraft

Hi,

What's this thread about?

PaulRivers

Yeah, flawed and/or dishonest like what you're doing. Those people refused to accept that their original study/source was wrong. You refuse to believe what your own study says:

"Quality assessment - the results of the quality assessment are presented in table 3.One study was considered to be of ‘good’ quality.20 This was the only study that could answer question nine of the assessment tool ‘Were the exposure measures (independent variables) clearly defined, valid, reliable, and implemented consistently across all study participants?’. Four studies were considered to be of ‘fair’10 ,18 ,19 ,21 and four were of ‘poor’ quality... Since no study identified the possible risk factors, most studies were of retrospective design and generally of ‘poor’ or ‘fair’ quality; the information received from this systematic review is insufficient to address the potential for prevention. Future studies are needed to describe the specific injury types and risk factors for injuries in weightlifting and powerlifting."

This is what I was saying:
1. Tell people lifting safe and healthy.
2. People get hurt.
3. Attack anyone who talks about getting trying to silence them.

That you're attacking with exactly same tactics and the anti-vaccine crowd used...I don't even know what I could add to that.

Edit: No, wait, I stand corrected, I can. I think of the most annoying awful people I've ever had to spend time around in real life. Then I imagine them giving out advice, someone following their advice and it not working and making things worse, then them throwing a whole fit about how it wasn't their fault and they didn't say it and it definitely didn't happen. Now I can see it. You're basically Dolores Umbridge:

There we go, now it makes sense.

gregf83 

woodcraft

I heard posting here would make you important...

clasher

Well I've done six weight lifting workouts and haven't managed to hurt myself yet. I started out just doings reps with the bar and a more experienced lifter (my gf) watching my form to make sure it's on point. I've hurt myself cycling a few times in the last few years... knee issues and achilles issues. I haven't felt any problems in those parts so far with my lifting and, aside from some minor doms, I feel better already. I'm working on doing bench press, overhead press, deadlifts and squats; along with chinups and some rows for now. I will keep things pretty simple for the next 2 months and then look into branching out with more accessory work. Aside from riding bikes my work sometimes involves a lot of heavy lifting and I need to keep strong all year so it's unlikely I'm gonna give it up... I really enjoy lifting even though I'm super-new to it. Different kind of feeling after doing a challenging set. I also ride mostly long distance stuff so I am not really worried about maximum power output... when I was fatter I had no problems finishing 600k and even a 1200k ride so I don't really see any downside to adding some weight training to my life.