FAKE Brooks Swift?! - Photos included
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South Bronx
Posts: 85
Bikes: IRO Angus, Compact III, Motobecane, KHS
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
FAKE Brooks Swift?! - Photos included
Okay... So I accidentally won a Swift on ebay. I had just received a bonus pay check for some free lance work, was checking out bike components on ebay, came accross a Swift, casually entered my max bid, and then I went out of town and won the auction.
The saddle was listed as "new Brooks Swift Ti saddle, simply mounted and ridden for a short ride" and the photos presented a clean, unscathed saddle. However, upon arrival I noticed some peculiar things.
Is this saddle a lemon? Is the craftsmanship poor or am I over examining it? Should I mount the thing?
PHOTO 0: Looks nice, eh?
PHOTO 1: The nut and bolt... Doesn't that nut look like it's been cranked pretty far for a brooks that has only been taken on a "short ride"? The whole bolt is threaded so I assume the nut once started at the nose, right?
PHOTO 2: The "Brooks" signature on the back... 1. Looks cheap as hell 2. Looks poorly mounted 3. I have never seen this version/logo before. Am I just uncultured?
PHOTO 3: Craftsmanship again... This is the back, left, underside. There is pretty large gap between the leather and the titanium.
PHOTO 4: Black Arrow points to "Made In England" Shouldn't there be a number branded in the center, underside of the saddle(white arrow)?
PHOTO 5: Is it me or does it look like the frame once included bag loops, which are--obviously--no longer there?
PHOTO 6:A few of the rivets are noticeably coming off the leather. Cause for concern?
PHOTO 7: Shouldn't the rail say Titanium? As it is the Swift Ti?
Another crappy rivet shot and the underside gap between leather and titanium, yet again.
What's the consensus?! I appreciate the help and hope I wasn't overly thorough. As I said, wining the auction was an accident so I want to be sure this is worth paying that cost.
The saddle was listed as "new Brooks Swift Ti saddle, simply mounted and ridden for a short ride" and the photos presented a clean, unscathed saddle. However, upon arrival I noticed some peculiar things.
Is this saddle a lemon? Is the craftsmanship poor or am I over examining it? Should I mount the thing?
PHOTO 0: Looks nice, eh?
PHOTO 1: The nut and bolt... Doesn't that nut look like it's been cranked pretty far for a brooks that has only been taken on a "short ride"? The whole bolt is threaded so I assume the nut once started at the nose, right?
PHOTO 2: The "Brooks" signature on the back... 1. Looks cheap as hell 2. Looks poorly mounted 3. I have never seen this version/logo before. Am I just uncultured?
PHOTO 3: Craftsmanship again... This is the back, left, underside. There is pretty large gap between the leather and the titanium.
PHOTO 4: Black Arrow points to "Made In England" Shouldn't there be a number branded in the center, underside of the saddle(white arrow)?
PHOTO 5: Is it me or does it look like the frame once included bag loops, which are--obviously--no longer there?
PHOTO 6:A few of the rivets are noticeably coming off the leather. Cause for concern?
PHOTO 7: Shouldn't the rail say Titanium? As it is the Swift Ti?
Another crappy rivet shot and the underside gap between leather and titanium, yet again.
What's the consensus?! I appreciate the help and hope I wasn't overly thorough. As I said, wining the auction was an accident so I want to be sure this is worth paying that cost.
#3
Gemutlichkeit
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,423
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
In my opinion, what you have is a typical Brooks. The gaps between the leather and the frame should be of no concern. The rough edges and ground off bag hangers is also normal as there is no need for complete de-burring of the frame. And, there are no hangers on a Swift.
Of some concern is the bolt position. Normally, a Brooks that is un-tensioned will come to you with very little thread showing in front of the nose. This saddle has obviously been tensioned - and quite aggressively. My hunch is that the previous owner got himself a Swift, didn't like it, over softened it - probably with lots of oil - then tensioned it while still wet, and the result is what you see. That explains the leather pulling way from the rivets and the bolt being half-way thru.
This is a prime example of why I vehemently discourage the use of oils - you can't gage how much is too much because it keeps on softening for a long time. Beeswax only. Normal use will do the rest.
The good news is that the rivets can be easily hammered back into flush. Use a medium ball-peen hammer, just as they do at Brooks. Make sure you support the other side of the rive on something very solid - like a vise. You'll need to use a wide punch, or something that will only touch the back side of the rivet when you tap the top side. Try not to support the hammer strikes on the Ti frame - just the rivet-back. Hammer them just enough to close the gap - not too far or cutting can occur. Do not strike the edge of the rivet or you'll curl it under. Work the copper from the middle out.
Of some concern is the bolt position. Normally, a Brooks that is un-tensioned will come to you with very little thread showing in front of the nose. This saddle has obviously been tensioned - and quite aggressively. My hunch is that the previous owner got himself a Swift, didn't like it, over softened it - probably with lots of oil - then tensioned it while still wet, and the result is what you see. That explains the leather pulling way from the rivets and the bolt being half-way thru.
This is a prime example of why I vehemently discourage the use of oils - you can't gage how much is too much because it keeps on softening for a long time. Beeswax only. Normal use will do the rest.
The good news is that the rivets can be easily hammered back into flush. Use a medium ball-peen hammer, just as they do at Brooks. Make sure you support the other side of the rive on something very solid - like a vise. You'll need to use a wide punch, or something that will only touch the back side of the rivet when you tap the top side. Try not to support the hammer strikes on the Ti frame - just the rivet-back. Hammer them just enough to close the gap - not too far or cutting can occur. Do not strike the edge of the rivet or you'll curl it under. Work the copper from the middle out.
#4
Senior Member
Well, if you run out of adjustment, I've heard of lacing the bottom of the skirt to tighten it up, but that kind of trick doesn't usually show up till thousands of miles have passed.
What can I say. If either my champion flyer, or the B-17 had arrived looking like that, I think I might have sent it back.
What can I say. If either my champion flyer, or the B-17 had arrived looking like that, I think I might have sent it back.
__________________
Some people are like a Slinky ... not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs.
Some people are like a Slinky ... not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 450
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I agree that the adjustment bolt is way out. I have 5 Brooks saddles( 3 B-17s, a Conquest, and a B-67 ), some of which have many years and miles of riding, and none of them are stretched anywhere near as much as yours. You might use a magnet to verify that the frame is actually titanium ( or at least not steel ), if you are in doubt.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 1,126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think you have a valid reason to be concerned. No stamp marking is troubling. The Brooks nameplate is unlike any I have seen. Caveat: I have only owned Brooks pro models and Brooks B17.
#7
lunatic fringe
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miles from Nowhere, Columbia County, OR
Posts: 1,111
Bikes: 1980 Schwinn World Sport, 1982 Schwinn Super Le Tour, 1984 (?) Univega Single Speed/Fixed conversion, Kogswell G58 fixed gear, 1987 Schwinn Super Sport
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I have 2 Conquests and a Team Pro, all bought from reputable dealers, that have the interlaced O's on the nameplate. One Conquest has Brooks England, as yours does. The other two just have Brooks, with raised, embossed lettering.
I think you have a genuine Brooks that has been abused (overtightened).
I think you have a genuine Brooks that has been abused (overtightened).
Last edited by Dogbait; 07-19-07 at 09:58 PM.
#8
totally louche
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: A land that time forgot
Posts: 18,023
Bikes: the ever shifting stable loaded with comfortable road bikes and city and winter bikes
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
9 Posts
none of this is conclusive, but IF thats' a genuine Brooks, it is an older Brooks,
that back plate design is from at least 10 years ago.
I Believe, however, that Brooks side wings have always been stamped with a much more elaborate logo with the model number on the side. the side logo makes me think it could be counterfeit.
Brooks had a dark decade in the nineties, and quality was on the downhill. Brooks is now owned by Selle San Marco.
that back plate design is from at least 10 years ago.
I Believe, however, that Brooks side wings have always been stamped with a much more elaborate logo with the model number on the side. the side logo makes me think it could be counterfeit.
Brooks had a dark decade in the nineties, and quality was on the downhill. Brooks is now owned by Selle San Marco.
Last edited by Bekologist; 07-20-07 at 08:26 AM.
#9
Gemutlichkeit
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,423
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I'm satisfied that you have the real deal there. Beko is correct about the badge style. They varied from time to time. Again I say, the gaps between the frame and leather is no reason for concern. Even a Brooks from the Dark Ages is a great saddle. The rivets can be re-formed and as long as the saddle doesn't sag from the obvious over oiling and subsequent stretching, it will be fine.
The stamp on the skirt is the Brooks stamp. The leather is skived and the edges are relieved. Looks like a good ride. The pics in these links show the stamp. The second link is the best. Scroll down and look at the burgundy Swift.
If this is really bothering you, PM me and we can discuss a price if you feel the need to be rid of it.
https://www.brooksengland.com/docs/catalogue_07_en.pdf
https://www.yellowjersey.org/brooks3.html
The stamp on the skirt is the Brooks stamp. The leather is skived and the edges are relieved. Looks like a good ride. The pics in these links show the stamp. The second link is the best. Scroll down and look at the burgundy Swift.
If this is really bothering you, PM me and we can discuss a price if you feel the need to be rid of it.
https://www.brooksengland.com/docs/catalogue_07_en.pdf
https://www.yellowjersey.org/brooks3.html
#10
Happy old man
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West coast of New England
Posts: 621
Bikes: Trek 4500 mountain bike, Trek 7500fx disk, and Trek 2200 Road bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is why I never buy on ebay..
__________________
https://www.thegmbc.com/
https://www.gmaa.net/
In New England we have nine months of winter and three months of damned poor sledding.
https://www.thegmbc.com/
https://www.gmaa.net/
In New England we have nine months of winter and three months of damned poor sledding.
#11
Pedal pusher...
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 7,766
Bikes: I've got a bunch...
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
It looks to me that you have an older, slightly used Brooks that as someone mentioned was overtightened. Since the auction stated "new" you could file a complaint with the seller for a refund and if they won't comply then eBay/paypal itself...
Depending on how good a deal you got why don't you just ride it and see what you think? If it's comfortable it certainly is still in usable condition...
Depending on how good a deal you got why don't you just ride it and see what you think? If it's comfortable it certainly is still in usable condition...
__________________
May you live long, live strong, and live happy!
May you live long, live strong, and live happy!
#12
Happy old man
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West coast of New England
Posts: 621
Bikes: Trek 4500 mountain bike, Trek 7500fx disk, and Trek 2200 Road bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
It looks to me that you have an older, slightly used Brooks that as someone mentioned was overtightened. Since the auction stated "new" you could file a complaint with the seller for a refund and if they won't comply then eBay/paypal itself...
Depending on how good a deal you got why don't you just ride it and see what you think? If it's comfortable it certainly is still in usable condition...
Depending on how good a deal you got why don't you just ride it and see what you think? If it's comfortable it certainly is still in usable condition...
To me that is another way of saying USED...
__________________
https://www.thegmbc.com/
https://www.gmaa.net/
In New England we have nine months of winter and three months of damned poor sledding.
https://www.thegmbc.com/
https://www.gmaa.net/
In New England we have nine months of winter and three months of damned poor sledding.
#14
The Red Lantern
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 5,965
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have a real Brooks Swift and it looks like yours. No bag hangers, rough finish on the plates, same badge. My rails just a sticker, stating they were Ti, that came of pretty quick. The tension screw on mine is only in a few threads.
__________________
Are you a registered member? Why not? click here to register. Its free, and only takes 27 seconds!
Help out the forums, abide by our community guidelines.
I am in the woods and I have gone crazy.
Are you a registered member? Why not? click here to register. Its free, and only takes 27 seconds!
Help out the forums, abide by our community guidelines.
I am in the woods and I have gone crazy.
#15
59'er
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Alexandria, IN
Posts: 3,307
Bikes: LeMond Maillot Jaune, Vintage Trek 520 (1985), 1976 Schwinn Voyageur 2, Miyata 1000 (1985)
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
3 Posts
My Swift has the hangers. The bolt is at the end of the nose. But the weird thing is I looked at my Team Pro the other day and noticed the nut was back on the bolt a bit more than the Swift. Could be a normal thing with Brooks since I've never put a wrench on either saddle.
__________________
#16
Gemutlichkeit
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,423
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
It is possible that when the original installer built the saddle, the leather blank was of such suppleness that the bolt might have been turned in half way from the factory to take up the tension. Usually, this is not the case, and may be one of the so-called problems that Brooks was dealing with when they were purchased by Selle. They were still great saddles, and as long as there are no tears in the leather, and it doesn't sag from riding, it will be fine. Also, there's plenty of thread left for many years of use.
#17
Senior Member
No
No, it's leather. Having been a leather worker for many years, it's difficult to achieve the same consistentsy with leather you do with molded plastics.
Yes
Yes
Tim
No, it's leather. Having been a leather worker for many years, it's difficult to achieve the same consistentsy with leather you do with molded plastics.
Yes
Yes
Tim
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,018
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
If you expected the precise machining of a modern mass market item, don't buy Brooks. If you expect new don't buy used. My guess is the saddle is Brooks and Ti and will last many years/decades. Brooks is kind of a cult, sadly there are plenty of nice saddles made of plastic.
Ti should weigh what is posted in ads. If the saddle is not broken in it is probably nearly new. The saddle might be "new old stock".
I would let it break in and see if you like it better. You have to sit in it just right for the leather to act as a hammock.
Ti should weigh what is posted in ads. If the saddle is not broken in it is probably nearly new. The saddle might be "new old stock".
I would let it break in and see if you like it better. You have to sit in it just right for the leather to act as a hammock.
#19
steel lover
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,316
Bikes: Bianchi Alloro, Miyata 710, Fuji Espree Fixie convert
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Although at the same time the brooks I just received appears perfect, no rough edges, no imperfections (although it's black so can't speak for color). I just didn't want everyone to think they are all rough looking.