watercamper

Hi All!
I have a 2005 Lemond Zurich with a 10 speed Ultegra groupset. The cassette is a Hyperglide CS6600, 12 - 25. The chainrings are 53 & 39. Tires are 700x23.

My wife just got a nice Felt last year with a 11 spd 105 groupset (50/34, 11/32) & 700x25. I'm jealous of how easy the mountains* are for her so I would like to change my gearing without breaking the bank. I don't have to stay with Ultegra.

I used one of the online gear inch calculators to get: Hers: 34/32 = 28.0, 50/11 = 120.4 Mine: 39/25 = 41.0 (ouch), 53/12 = 116.2.

Can someone help me to figure out what changes I would need to do to make my gearing similar to hers and therefore, easier to climb?

(*Mountains - think Idaho, Oregon, Washington, Wyoming, Utah, California).

dr_lha

What version of the rear derailleur do you have? Short or long cage? I would guess short.

First issue you will have is that that rear derailleur is rated for a maximum cog of 27T. You can get a 10 speed 11-28 cassette, so only one tooth above spec. However, for the short cage, the capacity is rate as 29T.

28 - 11 + 53 - 39 = 31T

So you're both above the capacity of the rear derailleur by 2T and the max cog size by 1T. Things get even worse if you change your crankset to a compact (50/34) like your wife's:

28 - 11 + 50 - 34 = 33T

TL;DR: You'll have a buy a new rear derailleur to be able to use a wider gearing.

You can get a ten speed cassette that has 12-30 (which would work with a Shimano RD-5701 105 level 10 speed derailleur), I'm not sure if there's one that goes up to 32T, maybe a 10 speed mountain cassette or a SRAM?

To get a compact crankset, you'll need to buy a whole new one. You can't fit smaller chainrings on you current crank as I believe it's a 130mm BCD.

Are you ready to spend money?

RubeRad

Look at maybe a cyclocross crankset, typically 46/36, that small ring would be close to a compact 50/34, but since the rings are closer together, only 10T worth of chainwrap required for the front, less than the 53-39=14 you're currently using. So that gives you (at least) 4T more wrap in the back, so you could change cassette to 11-28 for sure, or probably even 11-32, as RD are typically rated conservatively, i.e. if they say max 28T they can really handle a few more.

Retro Grouch 

If it was my bike, the first thing that I would do would be to replace your racy crankset with a compact double like your wife's. You can probably do that by replacing just the crankset.

If your new low gear still isn't low enough you could get a wider ratio rear cassette and, if necessary, rear derailleur to go with it.

Tim_Iowa

Changing to a compact crankset would lower the gearing overall.

A wider-range cassette would lower the low range of the gearing, but keep the top end. It would result in larger gaps between gears, though.

Since your bike has 10 speed Ultegra shifters, you could fit an 32t cassette if you used the medium cage (GS) version of any 7-10 speed Shimano road rear derailleur.
Or, you could fit an 36t cassette with a long cage (SGS) MTB 7-9-speed rear derailleur.

(Shimano 10-speed MTB derailleurs are not compatible with 10-speed road shifters, but 7-9-speed MTB rear derailleurs are fully index-compatible).

watercamper

I just checked ebay, performance and CL. What do I need to know about the bottom bracket? I assume they are not all interchangeable. I know that I have 175mm crank arms.

watercamper

I just found a Simano 105 5701 10 speed medium cage rear derailleur at the merlin cycles website ($30). Is this what you had in mind?

RubeRad

If you want to reuse your existing bottom bracket (which you probably do since you don't want to break the bank) you need to know what kind it is. Ultegra 10sp I assume something modern (i.e. not square-taper or octalink or something like that).

Which series Ultegra is it? If you can find a model number somewhere it will be either 6x00 or something like that. Check the Shimano parts waterfall, looks like Ultegra 10sp was first introduced in 2005 as 6600. Somebody here probably knows off the top of their head what kind of bottom bracket that had.

You want to know what your current bottom-bracket spindle length is. It might be appropriate for your replacement crankset, or it might not, and it's not trivial to determine that before buying, but you certainly would need to know what it is!

Possibly a new crankset would come with its own bottom bracket, you would just need to make sure it will fit in your frame. Almost certainly it will, it is probably for a 6mm shell, english-threaded. By far the most common size for the 1990s/2000s.

cyccommute 

Here's a comparison of your wife's gearing to your gearing. Probably the easiest...and cheapest...way to get lower gears is to change the cassette to a ten speed 12-36. You'll also have to change the rear derailer to a 9 speed long cage mountain bike derailer. This one will handle the 36 tooth cog, although most any 9 speed mountain bike derailer with a 34 tooth capacity can do the job as well. The derailer will also work with your STI shifters.

An 11-34 cassette will also work but you'll have a slightly higher low. I would probably dump the 53 tooth chainring for a 50 as well. A 53/11 is almost too high.

watercamper

OK - dumb question time. 1 - change to a 10 spd 12 - 36 cassette ✔ 2 - Install a 9 spd long cage mtn bike derailleur ✔ You say that the 9 spd derailleur will work with a 10 spd cassette. Does that mean I will have index shifting for all 10 speeds or only 9?

RubeRad

10. Indexing is all in the shifter. The derailleur just moves where the shifter tells it to, via the cable. Shifter/Derailleur compatibility is a matter of cable pull ratios.

Tim_Iowa

to confirm what @RubeRad and @cyccommute have said: the 9 speed MTB rear derailleur will index shift 10 gears perfectly with your 10 speed road shifters, and allow you to fit a cassette with a larger cog.

For shimano, 7-10 speed road (except DA 7400) and 7-9 speed MTB all use the SIS ratio, so they work together and the indexing is controlled by the shifter.

cyccommute 

There's a general misunderstanding about derailers. The derailer is a robot for the most part. As long as the derailer's cable pull ratio and the shifter's pull ratio match, the derailer will work with any shifter. You could use a rear derailer designed for 6 or 7 speed gear systems with an STI 10 speed system without issue. The one caveat is that Shimano has changed the pull ratio on 10 speed mountain bike derailers with the introduction of the Dynasys group. You can't use Dynasys derailers with any other system so you can't mix and match it into road systems.

The only problem with using a 6, 7, 8 and some 9 speed mountain derailers with the 12-36 is that they may not have the right capacity for handling the 36. The derailer I linked to is a 9 speed derailer with a capacity for the 36 tooth low. Others may work as Shimano is notorious for underestimating their equipment's abilities.

fietsbob

I expect the 53-39 is on a 130 Bolt circle, so all you can do without buying a new crank , is a smaller big chainring.. 48-39

otherwise buy the same 34 50 type- crank..

caloso

This. If OP has 130mm BCD, the smallest chainring that will fit is 38. If it's 110, then all he has to do is buy a 50t outer and 34t inner, and voila, instant compact crankset.

watercamper

I spent quite a bit of time reading about cable pull, sprocket pitch and shift ratio here Art's Cyclery Blog » Science Behind the Magic | Drivetrain Compatibility. Interesting stuff!

Question: you linked to a Deore shifter ($39.82). Any advantage to this XT shifter ($64.97) Amazon.com : Shimano Derailleur Rear Bike Mtb Xt Rd-m772 Gs 9-sp : Low Normal Long Cage : Sports & Outdoors

I couldn't find a Shimano 12-36 but Competitive Cyclists has a 12-36 SRAM PG1070 10 spd cassette ($55), 359g, fits any Shimano 9 or 10 spd freehub, compatible with any 10 spd drivetrain. SRAM PG-1070 Cassette (10-Speed) | Competitive Cyclist This should work, right?

And, please confirm the following for me: My current setup has 2.3mm cable pull and a derailleur shift ratio of 1.7. Using the formula (cable pull)(derailleur shift ratio)=cog pitch implies (2.3mm)(1.7)=3.91. Per the previous link, both Shimano and SRAM 10 spd cassettes have a cog pitch of 3.95, which is close enough I guess. That's what you're telling me - it will work - because the Shimano and SRAM cassettes have the same cog pitch!

cyccommute 

Functionally they are the same. The XT has a better finish and is a bit lighter. In the mountain bike line it is positioned the same as Ultegra. One odd thing is that your post says that the derailer is low normal but the link goes to a high normal derailer. "Low normal" is also known as "RapidRise" and shifts in the opposite direction to the way derailers usually work.

Sram and Shimano cassettes are interchangeable. Either will work.


Yes.

watercamper

Life got in the way of biking for awhile. I hate when that happens.

So, my ultegra cassette seems to have some machining done to the teeth to help give crisp shifting. Will I notice a big difference in shifting by switching over to the SRAM cassette? If yes, would it be better to buy a hyperglide 11 36 cassette by Shimano?

Is the Parktool FR5 tool the one I need for the Shimano 6600/SRAM cassette? I still have to dig out my old chain whip to see if it will work.

I haven't checked the chain stretch on my existing chain. Would you change out the chain or check it first? I think a neighbor has one of the tools to check stretch.

BTW - I really appreciate you guys taking the time to answer my questions. and link to options. I do all of the work on our bikes (my wife and I) but usually it is just replacing damaged parts or minor upgrades. This has been an educational journey for me.

Tim_Iowa

There are slight differences between them, but Shimano and SRAM cassettes are functionally interchangeable. You probably wouldn't notice any difference in shifting. Buy whichever one has the correct mix of lightness and cheapness for your budget.

Note: SRAM makes some 10-XX cassettes that require a different hub body than 11-XX cassettes. They're labeled "XD", so don't get one of those.

Yes, the FR5 (or any Shimano cassette tool) will work on any 10 speed Shimano or SRAM (non-XD) cassette.

The most exact way to check chain stretch is with a 12 inch ruler (near the bottom of this page). However, it is common practice to install a new chain with a new cassette.

Regarding chains:
A re-usable "power-link" allows you to easily remove the chain for cleaning later, so I consider it an important feature.

Shimano 10s chains have no power-link.
SRAM chains have a power-link that is "one time use only", though folks have re-used them.
KMC chains have a "missing link" that they say can be re-used 2-3 times.
The Wippermann Connex link can be re-used indefinitely.

FYI, you can buy the KMC or Connex links separately, and they do work with Shimano and SRAM chains. I carry a couple spare Connex links on my fat bike, because it has a chain eating addiction.

cyccommute 

I agree and would add that the SRAM link isn't nearly as delicate as SRAM says it is. I've used mine many times without issue. I don't often take my chains apart for cleaning (I don't need to but that is fodder for another thread) but I've never worried about reusing the SRAM link.

One other note on Shimano chains for watercamper. They use a replaceable pin that is used to replace the pin you pushed out. You push the pin into place and break off the bit of the pin that sticks out in the back. Although I can't find the reference right now, I've read somewhere that you shouldn't push the replacement pin out if you need to break the chain in the future. You should pick another link to remove a pin. It's a pain, really, and the main reason that I don't use Shimano chains.

DiabloScott

One more thing to think about. Most road bikes have only one cable adjuster for the rear derailleur, and it's IN the rear derailleur. Most mountain bike derailleurs do not have the cable adjuster so you'll probably need to add one like this:



And all these people who put small steps as their prime criteria for gearing setups are either phenomenally strong climbers, or not climbers at all. I'm quite happy with this setup (9-speed downtube shifters, MTB cassette and MTB derailleur.

joejack951

I have never measured the link hole pre and post pin insertion but I imagine that due to the design of the joining pin, the hole is slightly enlarged when the joining pin is pressed all the way through. As press fits operate on only a few thousands of inch (hundreths of a millimeter) interference, a little bigger can be the difference between secure and ticking time bomb. So yes, if you pressed in a joining pin and need to break the chain with the plan of using another joining pin, leave your original pin in place and choose another spot for the break.

woodcraft

I have a 'low normal' RD on my mtn bike,

& it sucks. Would bet money that you

would think so as well.

joejack951

Easier to add an inline adjuster right near the handlebars for on-the-go tuning. Initial tuning is easier with the adjuster at the derailleur but I believe it was only 9-speed XTR RDs that eliminated that adjuster anyway (I know it isn't there on that RD because I have one).

Or they run triples

RubeRad

Why is it that (newer) MTB RD do not have barrel adjusters? Is it because they added them to the shifters?

PS you really trimmed that cable down to the nub! I guess that's one alternative to cable crimps!