gycho77

I have seen this bike once in T.town. I never had chance to ask the owner about the bike, because he was busy preparing for the race.
When I saw that bike, I was amazed by the down tube and fork size.
The frame tube was just HUGE. So i am guessing that the frame is super stiff lol

700wheel

Another way to get a stiff frame is to use lower cost materials and make parts oversize [just speaking as an engineer].

queerpunk

Viviani has used a MAAT for a while, too - ever since he went to Sky.

carleton

Ha! Good one.

If the bar/stem combos are so awesome...why didn't Wiggins use them?



Makes me wonder if they are not awesome

carleton

I was just thinking:

Bikes are really mature. Like REALLY mature.

The ground-breaking achievements are far and few between, yet bike companies make new models every year or so.

What are the latest (in the history of the bicycle) ground-breaking, life-changing, sh*t actually got a lot better for anyone who used it engineering feats of the last 50 years when it comes to track bikes?

Here's what comes to mind for me:

- Threadless stems
- Clipless pedals
- Carbon fiber bars (vibration dampening, strong as steel, light as aluminum)
- Carbon fiber wheels
- Bike computers that record speed and cadence data to be downloaded for later review.
- Lizard Skins grip tape

I think that's about it. Am I missing something?

Trackliche

Carbon frames?

Otherwise I think you're pretty much right; incremental gains. . . if that. Except for training methods (NO I'm not trying to bring that back up! ).

TC

carleton

I was on the fence about adding Carbon Frames to the list and chose not to.

I can't say that they are a major improvement over steel or aluminum. It's not like you get on a carbon frame and instantly become faster or had a noticeably better experience.

It's not necessarily stiffer than steel or aluminum (depending on build specs). It's not necessarily lighter.

There is some minor vibration dampening from the rear triangle. But, most of the vibration dampening happens with the fork, bars, seat stays, and saddle.

Yes, carbon allows for unique aero shapes. But, we had that a little with steel and a lot with aluminum. So, the aero improvements are relatively minor over aluminum. Put a TK1 next to a Tiemeyer and you will find that they are more similar than different when it comes to aerodynamics.

carleton

Oh, I'd like to add: Seatposts

The Thomson micro-adjust seatpost is probably the best ever.

There is an older seatpost design where the seatpost top is simply a tapered tube and the clamp grabs the tube at the bottom and it's sides grabs the saddle rails. You see this on cheaper bikes now.



This system allows for the saddle to turn sideways like a turret back and forth.

So, getting away from that system is HUGE.

carleton

+ Aerobars

queerpunk

Wind tunnels and power meters are pretty serious advancements, too, but it's not bike-specific tech. And it's about information, not about what a cyclist is using while on the bike, necessarily.

carleton

I'd consider those are small advancements. And especially low on the cost/benefit scale.

The big advancement that power meters bring are 90% from the head unit that records speed, cadence, and HR over time and allows one to download it for analysis. Think about it. If your cranks stopped transmitting for a training block (let's say a month), would you be able to make the same analyses using speed, cadence, and HR data plotted over time (as well as other charts using that data)?

I strongly believe that power analysis is a huge red herring in the cycling world. Everyone who doesn't have one feels that they would benefit from one.

Yes, there is something to be gained, but not as much as it promises.

But, your opinion is just as valid as mine.

gtrob

I feel for the guys that have to come out with a better bike every couple of years. Imagine finally pulling off the best bike you could possibly make within the limits you have, knowing that you have to beat it, while everyone is trying to as well, in a couple of years. With the same limits and technology.

At least with road bikes the groupsets get noticeably better every 5-10 years, but track frames? The Kimera is 10 years old now, could they make anything reasonably better today?

wens

I think you're underestimating the gains wind tunnel testing can provide.

carleton

Yeah, the same thing happens in Tennis. I mean, how much can a Tennis racquet be improved?

I'm reminded of when I was a kid playing jr tennis. The Prince Original Graphite was an amazing racquet that debuted in 1980 and was still being used into the 1990s. It had a perfect mix of balance, power, control, and feel that was unrivaled. They got it right. This was the racquet that Agassi, Chang, Seles, etc.. and every up-and-coming junior to the pros used.

Agassi and a young Seles:




Even when pros got contracts with other manufacturers...they would STILL use the POG and simply repaint it and put the new sponsors logo on it. It was THAT good.

(It's hard to see here, but it was well known at the time. Agassi had a Donnay contract but used a Prince racquet for a year or two until they made one he liked.)


Here was the problem. It was rugged as hell, too! So guess what? If you bought 4 of them (normal for a club player) or 10 (normal for pros), you were set for life

They even use it now:



So what did Prince do? Instead of keeping it alive, they discontinued it. I'm not sure what happened in the story of that racquet after that. But, basically pros started hoarding them. Not sure if they ever re-released it.

So, yeah, imagine being the guy who had to top the best tennis racquet ever made

I probably am. I've never done it. I guess that's why I asked the question.

Dalai

In regards to wind tunnels - I spent a day testing on my TT bike (I did bring my track bike but ran out of time) back in 2008. Was the best $500 I've spent on the bike... Saved 43 Watts by spending just a few hours testing.

queerpunk

I don't think power analysis is a red herring, but I do think that people perhaps assume that it can solve problems that it can't - it also requires discipline, motivation, ongoing learning, understanding of the principles, and follow-through. As Gang Star said, "I put in work, and watch my status escalate." It's a faster route but it's not a shortcut.

Wind tunnels and aerodynamics are definitely low on the cost:benefit scale, but as everybody gets faster, the cost to achieve benefits gets higher (see GB & Sky's accumulation of marginal gains approach). And the gains can be significant. I was thinking about Evie Stevens' Hour Record. I was chatting with a few friends when the news broke, and we were eyeballing her position and thinking, damn - surely there's room for improvement there. But then one or two news articles later and Henderson is saying that, in testing, she's one of the slipperiest athletes he's ever tested. Surprise!

Agassi - good god - that mullet.

tonski 

Does anyone know anyone at Alkek, or at least some of the following info? I'm trying to figure out what I need to do to start racing there this year while I'm in Houston for work . I've done some of the winter series racing thing at Hellyer, I don't know if doing that counts as racing or not as far as Alkek is concerned.

I know this is a strange place to ask but I'm not getting much info from FB or email -

dunderhi

I have a couple of years of heart rate, speed, and distance data, but after only seven weeks of power-based HIIT and I need to say WOW! I'd happily trade in my carbon wheels and aero helmet for the difference this has made in my training regime. The quantifiable aspect is very significant to me. I feel like I can already do a faster pursuit in the middle of Winter than I have for the past two years in the peak of Summer, but I acknowledge that only real world on-the-track testing will provide the necessary calibration data. Also, I'm only in my first year of producing this type of data, so there's plenty I need to learn. I consider my former HR based training data to be virtually useless, since I am already putting out more power at a lower heart rate in the same tests under identical conditions.

Godsight

Well the bike improvements that could truly change something are banned by the UCI : non-diamond frames (lotus,90s gt etc) and superman or obree position

carleton

Ah...the promise that all power meters make to new owners

It's almost like having a new lover!

Actually, HR and Power are closely related. HR is something like 10s behind power when you chart it.

Basically:

- HR shows your level of exertion from 10s ago.
- Power shows your current level of exertion.

Yes, one is better than the other. But, is getting that information 10s earlier worth $3,000?

Yeah, that's the engineer's #1 complaint (and rightfully so). How can you improve on a product that has been out for 100 years and every ounce of improvement has already been made.

This is why TT and Triathletes like racing non-UCI events because they aren't subject to those rules. And the bike manufacturers get to go nuts. There are enough participants in the non-UCI events to cover the costs of engineering and production. That's why the Shiv exists! It's flying in the face of the archaic UCI rules with the huge downtube that isn't 3:1 compliant...but it's hella fast!:

carleton

You are right! I honestly think most people don't analyze their power meter data and/or don't record data for analysis to be of any value. But, I also don't think that having done all of that, that the resulting diamond of analysis is that bright.

For the top 10% elite, yes. But for the bottom 90%, no.

In order for power meters (fatigue meters, as I call them) to work, you have to:

- Put them on all of your bikes
- Calibrate them
- Record every session (including rollers, trainer)
- Upload the data into the same software
- Learn how to analyze the files
- Learn what to look for
- Learn how to adjust your training for max effect.
- Rinse. Repeat.

I honestly think that most road/track riders simply don't do all of the above. Most don't care to or want to learn how to do the complex analysis. Basically, "I got a power meter. I saved the efforts. Now what?"


Again, I'm not saying that Power Meters are useless. I'm saying that MOST riders will not benefit from them and no one got faster because they had one on their bike. The speed comes from adjusting the training program based on the data and the body having a positive response based on that adjustment. In contrast, people did get faster when they went from 32 spokes to aero carbon wheels...in the same training session

+1 for the Gangstar quote

Voodoo76

I go back to 80's/90's HR based programs. Power is definitely more effective in the Aerobic realm. And it's just as effective as HR at polarizing training. An area where most of us need help.

FTP improvement is pretty well understood. Where I see a dearth of information is its use in helping improve maximal or sub-maximal efforts. All of the metrics and zones currently used (CTL, ATL, IF,ect) are based on aerobic milestones (FTP, CP).

I've had really good return this winter on sweet spot training for example. A pace that's hard to find with just HR. I don't think there is an analogy in max work. Effective work is a lot less paced. So power becomes just another measurement.

Would love to hear how some are using power in shorter efforts. I've read very little out there on the subject.

Apologize for the rambling reply.

carleton

This is a topic that's bigger than this thread so I've created a new thread in which some may want to follow and/or participate: https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycl...er-meters.html

gycho77

I am planning to spend my Spring break(End of March) in T.Town velodrome.
So can anyone tell me a cheap way to spend my week(7days) in velodrome?
As you guys know, I don't live near the velodrome, so I have to find a hotel.
Also are their any restaurants neer the velodrome?
When I visited the velodrome, I had hard tume finiding a restaurant neer the velodorme.
Please give me some tips.

carleton

Make sure that it's open and you can ride it before you plan a trip around going.

Also, I'd suggest making some sort of plans for the rest of each day. A velodrome is a lot like a gym in that it's great for using it for which it is designed. After your workout, there's nothing to do.

So let's say you do a 3hr workout (counting setup and breakdown), what are you gonna do the rest of the day?