Papa Tom

...and it's even worse now.

A few weeks back, in another thread, I described how my fork is "stuttering" when I brake at high speeds. At the suggestion of forum members, I replaced my handlebar-mounted front brake cable hanger with one that is fork-mounted. I also replaced the headset bearings and gave everything a good tightening. For a week or two, I was able to convince myself that I had solved the problem, despite the fact that it still stuttered, though a little less.

Now, it's worse than ever. The fork-mounted cable hanger was causing other problems, so I put the old handlebar-mounted one back, but this isn't what caused the problem to recur. I am thinking either my upper and lower headset races/cups are worn out (the bike is 22 years old and, of course, I sold my expensive race-pressing tool a few years ago) OR I used the wrong size bearing ring.

I guess we were all barking up the wrong tree the last time around, so I am starting from scratch. Can anybody tell me how all the fasteners holding my headset together can be completely tightened and yet the front fork rocks back and forth (even when just between my knees) as if something is loose? Your input will help me out when I finally take the bike to a "real" mechanic (not like me) tomorrow morning (Saturday 9/15/18).

Thank you!

trailangel

Bearings in upside down?

wesmamyke

The only time I ever personally had brake/fork issues like that I changed out some parts. Put a "better" Chris King headset on, and swapped to some very short cyclocross brake pads that didn't hit the fork.

I think the problem went away when I changed the brake pads again, the short ones were a very soft compound and very grabby. The Chris King headset also was very difficult to tell if it was tightened properly, it always felt smooth regardless of how tight or loose it was.

Have you dropped the fork out of the frame and checked everything? Take some close up pictures of everything, someone else may notice something with the setup.

jj1091

If you've tightened the headset top nut down all the way, and the fork is still loose, either your bearings are the wrong size and the races aren't mating properly (you end up with race-to-race mating, instead of race-to-bearing-to-race mating) or, if you're not using loose bearing balls, then your bearing retainers are upside down.

andrewclaus

Are you using the original rigid fork? When the fork-mounted cable hanger was on, what did you do with the old hanger? You would need a spacer, or you may have bottomed out on the steering tube threads. Now, I would be sure you have all the original spacers. Also verify the original threads on the steering tube can be followed. A mechanic may run a die on them.

Colnago Mixte

Sounds like the bearing retainers, or possibly one of the plastic bearing seals got put in upside down. Tightening the headset down in this condition may have damaged some parts. Fortunately, a basic headset is a cheap part, the main hassle is mostly the labor involved.

Too bad you didn't save your headset tool, you might need to pay someone to do this, but good luck! I use home made headset tools (blocks of wood and an old seatpost for cup removal)

Brittney

I had some serious fork judder recently. After replacing worn down brakepads and balancing the brake pull so both met the rim at the same time it was pretty much eliminated

Baboo

branko_76 

If he's a "real mechanic", then he should be able to sort it out for you. Let us know how it goes.

Papa Tom

Original rigid fork. Yes, I did add a spacer and everything was tight. Now that I switched back to the bar-mounted hanger, i removed the spacer and everything is still tight.

Papa Tom

By the way, I used the term "real mechanic" to describe what I am not. I did not mean to suggest that the people on this forum are not "real mechanics."

fietsbob

Stiffen the fork, Hire a Fork Brace made* ..
Its another tube from fork tip, to upper headset stack

*frame builder project.. its an old classic look ...

Papa Tom

ANYbody**********

fietsbob

Any Frame builders near you? how about across LI Sound, MAss , CT, RI?

Papa Tom

No

Cyclist0108

I had something like this, and it turned out, counter-intuitively, to be out of adjustment pre-load on the front hub.

fietsbob

box it up and ship it... I know one near Portland (Ti Cycles) and some in the city...

get a cheaper heavier less resonant fork...

(My AlAn CX went nuts when I put the front brakes on, now with a steel bike and fork tis better)

you could build a wheel around a Drum brake hub? I have that kit on my ice on the ground winter bike..

nice smooth non aggressive braking..

Papa Tom

I took the whole front end apart and re-assembled it again today. I didn't have a lot of time to test-ride, but it seems to be holding tight. Hopefully, I can get out on a decent ride tomorrow morning and see what happens.

Going back to the direction of the ball retainers, I've always set them the way they came with the bike - with the balls facing UP (toward the sky) on both the top and bottom. It seems unconventional, but this is the only way the retainers actually fit into the cups and move freely. I also checked (for the third or fourth time) that the retainers match the ones that were on the bike previously and they appear to be exactly the same. No play, either side-to-side or up-and-down, when installed.

It's really kind of sucky when the bike that has served you so well for more than twenty years starts to break down in ways you can't just easily diagnose and fix. It reminds me of all the loved ones in my life that I have watched deteriorate healthwise over the years. Very sad. I just want my GT Outpost to be as young and vibrant as it was this time last year!

Colnago Mixte

That's the advantage bikes have, they can be completely restored and made as good as new, better than new even. Unlike humans, we just get old and die, despite expensive doctors.

This is why I own several bikes, so that if one of them starts causing me trouble, I can sideline it and ride something else just as good for a while, while I figure out the problem. Some stuff takes weeks to figure out, but there is indeed a solution to every bike mechanical problem that exists.

Papa Tom

Brittney - I should have mentioned that I've already replaced the brake pads, even though the old ones had a good amount of meat left on them. I also replaced the front rim, having been surprised to find that the surface was slightly concave. (This was puzzling because this rim was not that old.)

Branko76 - As you can see, I cheaped out on taking the bike into a mechanic this morning. I'm hoping the latest dose of DIY tinkering may have solved the problem.

wgScott - What is a "pre-load adjustment?"

fietsbob - You seem like a super-knowledgable guy, but I'm sorry to say that I have a lot of difficulty understanding your posts. No disrespect intended when I reply with something like "whaaaaa**********?"

Everybody Else - Thanks for your input in this and my previous threads.

andrewclaus

The "open" side of the retainer cage should always face the cone, not the cup, of the bearing assembly. (This should be self-evident, and immediately clear if done incorrectly.) On many, if not most, threaded headsets, the cones press into the head tube, so your assembly above would be incorrect for those headsets.

Some headsets have the cone pressed into the head tube. But I've only seen this on the upper bearing, where the adjustable piece is a cup. On these headsets, the balls would both face down. I don't think I've ever seen a cup-shaped crown race (the piece pressed onto the fork), which is what your assembly would suggest.

A photo would be of great help.

Papa Tom

It's not a photo, but this quick drawing I made shows the direction of the "balls" within the retainer. I have always found it odd that the retainers both face the same direction, but, as I said, this is the only way they fit and spin freely, and this is the way the bike has been for 22 years. The mystery continues...

andrewclaus

From the drawing, it looks like both pieces pressed into the head tube are cup-shaped. If this is right, the lower retainer is assembled incorrectly.

Trakhak

See step 6 in the Part Tools headset installation instructions. Note that the retainers face up and the balls face down.

Papa Tom

I understand exactly what you are saying, and in all the years I recycled bicycles, I always set the retainers as you are describing. However, on my bike, the retainers only fit and roll smoothly in the direction I described above. Crazy, right? Could it be that I need a different size retainer for the bottom, so that the flat side of the retainer can sit in the cup and the "ball" side can face the cone?

(PS: I should note that my retainers are not shaped like the ones in the Park Tools tutorial. They are the type that have one "flat" side and one side where the balls are. The ones in the Park photos expose the balls a little bit on either side. (This is starting to sound a little naughty, isn't it?)