I want a robust rear wheel for touring
#76
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It’s not that simple. According to this mechanical engineering PhD dissertation, it’s far more complex than just running the tension up as high as you can get it. This quote… “Contrary to both popular belief and expert consensus, increasing spoke tension reduces the lateral stiffness of the wheel, which I demonstrate through theoretical calculations, finite-element simulations, and experiments.”…sums up his findings fairly well. I will warn you that this is a Marianas Trench deep dive on the topic. I haven’t waded my way through it yet but what I have read is illuminating.
#77
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And what exactly is meant by that recommendation? Is it to keep the spokes from breaking or to keep the rim from cracking? It’s meaningless.
A spoke tensioned to 120kgf will not go over 130kgf but it can drop quite significantly by even 50% or more.
That's actually one of the potential benefits of rope spokes, because rope doesn't suffer from the same tension cycle limitations.
I’m not saying that rope spokes are better or worse or just the same. I have not experience with them so I can’t say how durable they are. We…the cyclist community…can’t really say how durable they are since they are a relatively recent development.
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#78
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The local bike collective has a brand new 40 spoke Velocity Dyad rim just sitting there. Every time I stop by I look at it with lust but also knowing that I don't need another wheel. The Dyad is my bullet proof go-to rim for loaded touring, a 40 spoke one is what you would build for a fully loaded tandem touring bike.
I can only imagine building it four-cross with fat spokes for the ultimate overkill wheel. Does Chris King makes a 40-hole rear hub?
I can only imagine building it four-cross with fat spokes for the ultimate overkill wheel. Does Chris King makes a 40-hole rear hub?
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Had a set made by them a couple years back. Velocity CliffHanger 26", DT Swiss Champion J-Bend 2.34mm spokes, White Industries MI5 hubs, 3-cross lacing. Not inexpensive. But they're tough and silent.
https://rodbikes.com/index.html
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I have been on three tours with my 32-spoke rear wheel (on a Windsor Tourist) but can't stop worrying about it when riding fully loaded. I'm concerned about breaking a spoke. I think I would like to upgrade to a more robust touring-specific rear wheel (I guess with 36 spokes) but am not sure how to go about ordering one. The bike is 700 x 38 with disc brakes. Any recommendations about how to find and order a suitable wheel?
I'm very satisfied with their service.
On their website they have a wheel builder app where you spec the hub, spokes, rims, etc. and it shows you the cost and the weight as you select the components. It's very well done. You can spec a super strong wheel if you want (e.g. Velocity Cliffhanger with 40 spokes) or something a little lighter.
The only downside is they don't offer triple butted spokes. They have un-butted, single butted, double butted, extra thick, bladed, but no triple butted.
One tip: be sure and look at the availability of the parts you select otherwise you might have to wait for the parts to come in.
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The local bike collective has a brand new 40 spoke Velocity Dyad rim just sitting there. Every time I stop by I look at it with lust but also knowing that I don't need another wheel. The Dyad is my bullet proof go-to rim for loaded touring, a 40 spoke one is what you would build for a fully loaded tandem touring bike.
I can only imagine building it four-cross with fat spokes for the ultimate overkill wheel. Does Chris King makes a 40-hole rear hub?
I can only imagine building it four-cross with fat spokes for the ultimate overkill wheel. Does Chris King makes a 40-hole rear hub?
More on tandem wheels at a previous post I made in this thread.
https://www.bikeforums.net/22950271-post26.html
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The local bike collective has a brand new 40 spoke Velocity Dyad rim just sitting there. Every time I stop by I look at it with lust but also knowing that I don't need another wheel. The Dyad is my bullet proof go-to rim for loaded touring, a 40 spoke one is what you would build for a fully loaded tandem touring bike.
I can only imagine building it four-cross with fat spokes for the ultimate overkill wheel. Does Chris King makes a 40-hole rear hub?
I can only imagine building it four-cross with fat spokes for the ultimate overkill wheel. Does Chris King makes a 40-hole rear hub?
https://www.prowheelbuilder.com/hubs...y/40-hole.html
#83
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I am not doubting your account of spokes worn thin at the crosses, but it does make me wonder what is different about the setup or usage. My highest mileage wheels had a second rim worn on the rear wheel out before it was retired (the front is worn too but hasn't failed yet). I was in a shop buying a new wheel to finish a tour and figured I'd lace on a new rim at home. After failing to properly communicate that to the mechanic he started snipping out spokes so I gave up on putting a new rim on with those spokes, but they didn't show any obvious signs of wear. I am looking at the front wheel on that bike and the spokes look like new. The wheel was original from 1990 and has some really high mileage years on it. The spokes look perfect to me. The rim looks like it is ready for replacement again soon.
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#84
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I would have to charge about the same for my time to save spokes, take off the nipples and clean the threads up in a shop setting as to just sell you a handful of new ones. When you don't know what the wheel has been through, you generally recommend the client new spokes as they are technically a wear item. But I save and reuse spokes for myself personally.
edit: have to
edit: have to
Last edited by tombc; 07-20-23 at 06:24 AM.
#85
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#86
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This had been rattling in the back of my mind since I read it. I just wanted to say, that it is counter to my experience. I have never seen this happen. Spoke failure I have seen was always at one end or the other, never at the crosses. I have generally worn out a rim and replaced it using the same spokes on high mileage wheels. That was always in the days of rim brakes. I have not been using disc brakes long enough to wear out wheel components, especually since I upgraded wheels before they got too old on my one disc equipped bike.
I am not doubting your account of spokes worn thin at the crosses, but it does make me wonder what is different about the setup or usage. My highest mileage wheels had a second rim worn on the rear wheel out before it was retired (the front is worn too but hasn't failed yet). I was in a shop buying a new wheel to finish a tour and figured I'd lace on a new rim at home. After failing to properly communicate that to the mechanic he started snipping out spokes so I gave up on putting a new rim on with those spokes, but they didn't show any obvious signs of wear. I am looking at the front wheel on that bike and the spokes look like new. The wheel was original from 1990 and has some really high mileage years on it. The spokes look perfect to me. The rim looks like it is ready for replacement again soon.
I am not doubting your account of spokes worn thin at the crosses, but it does make me wonder what is different about the setup or usage. My highest mileage wheels had a second rim worn on the rear wheel out before it was retired (the front is worn too but hasn't failed yet). I was in a shop buying a new wheel to finish a tour and figured I'd lace on a new rim at home. After failing to properly communicate that to the mechanic he started snipping out spokes so I gave up on putting a new rim on with those spokes, but they didn't show any obvious signs of wear. I am looking at the front wheel on that bike and the spokes look like new. The wheel was original from 1990 and has some really high mileage years on it. The spokes look perfect to me. The rim looks like it is ready for replacement again soon.
Again though, I'm pretty clueless of all of this, as opposed to the folks here who have built lots of wheels themselves. I really have had such little personal experience with breaking spokes after all these years of riding, I'm still very much in the dark of even understanding the mechanics of how spokes flex and whatnot.
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my bad, combination of poorly thought out writing and not really enough personal experience. I really was thinking of how wheels that are all loosey goosey spoke wise tend to break spokes near the hub, which I probably wrongly thought was happening from too much flex and "rubbing" near that point. I guess its really more the stress on the spokes by them flexing too much, and that point is a stress area, so thats where they break.
Again though, I'm pretty clueless of all of this, as opposed to the folks here who have built lots of wheels themselves.....
Again though, I'm pretty clueless of all of this, as opposed to the folks here who have built lots of wheels themselves.....
A number of years ago (maybe a decade?), Sapim made a batch of spokes from a bad batch of metal, some of those spokes failed in the middle, but that was quite unusual.
In the 1980s, I was looking at two bikes, a couple was touring on them. They were teachers, did not work during the summers so they spent their summers bike touring. Half of the components on the bikes had been replaced, always with much higher end replacements than what was originally on the bikes. One or two of the wheels had also been replaced. The original wheels had the most grooved spokes I have ever seen, those wheels had a lot of miles. But those might have been the older galvanized spokes that were common back then.
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Easy solution. Order up a new rear wheel. Inexpensive. You really don’t need the fanciest spokes, hub and cassette. It’s not the end of the world if they’re straight gauge instead of many butts. Your original rear wheel may last a long time but either way wheels are always good to have more of and even the superduperest can get damaged. You can have different tires on your second set.
You can order up on your own or ask the shop to order a 36 spoke rear wheel of the appropriate width and diameter. I’ve got wheels from QualityBikeProducts that are very good. The Velocity brand also looks good.
Your rear rim doesn’t have to match your front so if you get a new rear wheel all that matters is that it is made w good spokes, 36 is plenty. Don’t get fixated on the lightest rim for the width. The cheapest robust rim is good enough. It doesn’t have to be disc specific either. If your smallest tire was going to be 38 mm you might consider a cheap RhynoLite rim. What you’re looking for is utility use. Like farm tools. Tough, heavy and not expensive. While wheels do last they are also consumables. Rear wheels don’t last as long as front wheels so having a heavy rear wheel and lighter front wheel matches the use they get.
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