Indirectly causing cyclists death :driver charged?
#26
Junior Member
Breaking my silence -- I rarely participate in A&S threads -- but @vol referenced this thread in the Northeast sub-forum.
@vol: "One article mentioned it was a no-truck route" -- Central Park West is, indeed, a "no-truck" route, but that's not an absolute prohibition. It limits truck travel to either short distances for either pick-ups or deliveries (it's safe to assume a garbage truck wouldn't be delivering garbage to a CPW address) or to connect between cross-town streets. "Short distances" is specific in the regulation, but I don't know the specifics. Evidence of the truck's actual itinerary would be necessary for this charge to be substantiated.
@soonerrebel: I mentioned the no-truck route thing first because while the charges you mention might -- strictly speaking -- may be applicable, in NY State, there's an informal "rule of 2": an arbitrary standard that holds that a motorist in NY State isn't charged with a driving-related criminal offense unless the motorist is breaking at least two traffic laws at the time of a crash. This practice has no statutory basis, but it is practice. This is one reason why, when there is prosecution related to motor vehicle operation, there's typically a litany of charges rather than just one.
@Paul Barnard: I find it always reassuring to read stuff like "...as a matter of practice every person that has anything to do with a disaster like that is debriefed thoroughly. Every person was given a chance to tell their story in terms of what they did correctly and what they would do differently if they had to do it again." Thanks. No further details here, but I've had a similar experience with the National Transportation Safety Administration (NTSB). IMHO, if it's possible to learn from crashes, this method is the only way.
@northernlights: At least in New York City, the term "protected bike lane" includes an internal contradiction: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/05/...-the-hospital/ And for context, Central Park West is the northern extension of 8th Av.
@vol: "One article mentioned it was a no-truck route" -- Central Park West is, indeed, a "no-truck" route, but that's not an absolute prohibition. It limits truck travel to either short distances for either pick-ups or deliveries (it's safe to assume a garbage truck wouldn't be delivering garbage to a CPW address) or to connect between cross-town streets. "Short distances" is specific in the regulation, but I don't know the specifics. Evidence of the truck's actual itinerary would be necessary for this charge to be substantiated.
@soonerrebel: I mentioned the no-truck route thing first because while the charges you mention might -- strictly speaking -- may be applicable, in NY State, there's an informal "rule of 2": an arbitrary standard that holds that a motorist in NY State isn't charged with a driving-related criminal offense unless the motorist is breaking at least two traffic laws at the time of a crash. This practice has no statutory basis, but it is practice. This is one reason why, when there is prosecution related to motor vehicle operation, there's typically a litany of charges rather than just one.
@Paul Barnard: I find it always reassuring to read stuff like "...as a matter of practice every person that has anything to do with a disaster like that is debriefed thoroughly. Every person was given a chance to tell their story in terms of what they did correctly and what they would do differently if they had to do it again." Thanks. No further details here, but I've had a similar experience with the National Transportation Safety Administration (NTSB). IMHO, if it's possible to learn from crashes, this method is the only way.
@northernlights: At least in New York City, the term "protected bike lane" includes an internal contradiction: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/05/...-the-hospital/ And for context, Central Park West is the northern extension of 8th Av.
#27
For The Fun of It
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,851
Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2135 Post(s)
Liked 1,644 Times
in
826 Posts
Breaking my silence -- I rarely participate in A&S threads -- but @vol referenced this thread in the Northeast sub-forum.
@vol: "One article mentioned it was a no-truck route" -- Central Park West is, indeed, a "no-truck" route, but that's not an absolute prohibition. It limits truck travel to either short distances for either pick-ups or deliveries (it's safe to assume a garbage truck wouldn't be delivering garbage to a CPW address) or to connect between cross-town streets. "Short distances" is specific in the regulation, but I don't know the specifics. Evidence of the truck's actual itinerary would be necessary for this charge to be substantiated.
@soonerrebel: I mentioned the no-truck route thing first because while the charges you mention might -- strictly speaking -- may be applicable, in NY State, there's an informal "rule of 2": an arbitrary standard that holds that a motorist in NY State isn't charged with a driving-related criminal offense unless the motorist is breaking at least two traffic laws at the time of a crash. This practice has no statutory basis, but it is practice. This is one reason why, when there is prosecution related to motor vehicle operation, there's typically a litany of charges rather than just one.
@Paul Barnard: I find it always reassuring to read stuff like "...as a matter of practice every person that has anything to do with a disaster like that is debriefed thoroughly. Every person was given a chance to tell their story in terms of what they did correctly and what they would do differently if they had to do it again." Thanks. No further details here, but I've had a similar experience with the National Transportation Safety Administration (NTSB). IMHO, if it's possible to learn from crashes, this method is the only way.
@northernlights: At least in New York City, the term "protected bike lane" includes an internal contradiction: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/05/...-the-hospital/ And for context, Central Park West is the northern extension of 8th Av.
@vol: "One article mentioned it was a no-truck route" -- Central Park West is, indeed, a "no-truck" route, but that's not an absolute prohibition. It limits truck travel to either short distances for either pick-ups or deliveries (it's safe to assume a garbage truck wouldn't be delivering garbage to a CPW address) or to connect between cross-town streets. "Short distances" is specific in the regulation, but I don't know the specifics. Evidence of the truck's actual itinerary would be necessary for this charge to be substantiated.
@soonerrebel: I mentioned the no-truck route thing first because while the charges you mention might -- strictly speaking -- may be applicable, in NY State, there's an informal "rule of 2": an arbitrary standard that holds that a motorist in NY State isn't charged with a driving-related criminal offense unless the motorist is breaking at least two traffic laws at the time of a crash. This practice has no statutory basis, but it is practice. This is one reason why, when there is prosecution related to motor vehicle operation, there's typically a litany of charges rather than just one.
@Paul Barnard: I find it always reassuring to read stuff like "...as a matter of practice every person that has anything to do with a disaster like that is debriefed thoroughly. Every person was given a chance to tell their story in terms of what they did correctly and what they would do differently if they had to do it again." Thanks. No further details here, but I've had a similar experience with the National Transportation Safety Administration (NTSB). IMHO, if it's possible to learn from crashes, this method is the only way.
@northernlights: At least in New York City, the term "protected bike lane" includes an internal contradiction: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/05/...-the-hospital/ And for context, Central Park West is the northern extension of 8th Av.
#28
Junior Member
@soonerrebel: I mentioned the no-truck route thing first because while the charges you mention might -- strictly speaking -- may be applicable, in NY State, there's an informal "rule of 2": an arbitrary standard that holds that a motorist in NY State isn't charged with a driving-related criminal offense unless the motorist is breaking at least two traffic laws at the time of a crash. This practice has no statutory basis, but it is practice. This is one reason why, when there is prosecution related to motor vehicle operation, there's typically a litany of charges rather than just one.
Interesting and verypeculiar. Of course the DA is not bound by this, since it has no statutory basis, and could file without meeting this informal rule standard. If would appear that this arbitrary standard, if followed by the DA, makes him or her somewhat of a rogue and the good people of New York are not getting full enforcement of the law. I appreciate the information .. thanks.
Interesting and verypeculiar. Of course the DA is not bound by this, since it has no statutory basis, and could file without meeting this informal rule standard. If would appear that this arbitrary standard, if followed by the DA, makes him or her somewhat of a rogue and the good people of New York are not getting full enforcement of the law. I appreciate the information .. thanks.
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 08-12-18 at 08:02 PM.
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
I do know that as a matter of practice every person that has anything to do with a disaster like that is debriefed thoroughly. Every person was given a chance to tell their story in terms of what they did correctly and what they would do differently if they had to do it again.
- Jason C. Anderson was not debriefed thoroughly
- Aaron Dale Burkeen was not debriefed thoroughly
- Donald Clark was not debriefed thoroughly
- Stephen Ray Curtis was not debriefed thoroughly
- Gordon L. Jones was not debriefed thoroughly
- Roy Wyatt Kemp was not debriefed thoroughly
- Karl D. Kleppinger, Jr. was not debriefed thoroughly
- Keith Blair Manuel was not debriefed thoroughly
- Dewey A. Revette was not debriefed thoroughly
- Shane M. Roshto was not debriefed thoroughly
- Adam Weise was not debriefed thoroughly
- Dan Hanegby was not debriefed thoroughly
- Madison Jane Lyden was not debriefed thoroughly
What does Deepwater Horizon have to do with this? Not ONE member of the USCG "opined" what could have been differently in the initial hours of the disaster. (FWIW, NOT ONE MEMBER of NTSA ever "opines" on what could have been differently in the initial hours of a disaster. NOT ONE. EVER.)
Facts first.
Now back to our regularly scheduled blame the victim threads....
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 08-12-18 at 07:43 PM.
#31
Senior Member
I had swerved to avoid a collision and my potential death but did not have the time to plan an avoidance of the car behind.
As for this cyclist, I have no doubt his swerving was to avoid a collision in front and his potential death but he didn't have the time to check what was behind him since you rarely do when someone cuts you off.
Now, if the cyclist hadn't swerved and did collide into the car that cut him off, there would be no way to tell if he had attempted any collision avoidance procedure.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
I was involved in an auto collision many years ago. We were all lined up on the highway on-ramp merging lane. Then suddenly, the first car slowed down and in a chain reaction most of the cars collided into the one in front. My driving habit is usually to follow at a long distance 2 to 3 seconds. So I had the room and the time to swerve and avoid making contact with the car in front. But the car behind me didn't.
I had swerved to avoid a collision and my potential death but did not have the time to plan an avoidance of the car behind.
As for this cyclist, I have no doubt his swerving was to avoid a collision in front and his potential death but he didn't have the time to check what was behind him since you rarely do when someone cuts you off.
Now, if the cyclist hadn't swerved and did collide into the car that cut him off, there would be no way to tell if he had attempted any collision avoidance procedure.
I had swerved to avoid a collision and my potential death but did not have the time to plan an avoidance of the car behind.
As for this cyclist, I have no doubt his swerving was to avoid a collision in front and his potential death but he didn't have the time to check what was behind him since you rarely do when someone cuts you off.
Now, if the cyclist hadn't swerved and did collide into the car that cut him off, there would be no way to tell if he had attempted any collision avoidance procedure.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 08-12-18 at 07:57 PM.
#33
For The Fun of It
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,851
Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2135 Post(s)
Liked 1,644 Times
in
826 Posts
- Jason C. Anderson was not debriefed thoroughly
- Aaron Dale Burkeen was not debriefed thoroughly
- Donald Clark was not debriefed thoroughly
- Stephen Ray Curtis was not debriefed thoroughly
- Gordon L. Jones was not debriefed thoroughly
- Roy Wyatt Kemp was not debriefed thoroughly
- Karl D. Kleppinger, Jr. was not debriefed thoroughly
- Keith Blair Manuel was not debriefed thoroughly
- Dewey A. Revette was not debriefed thoroughly
- Shane M. Roshto was not debriefed thoroughly
- Adam Weise was not debriefed thoroughly
- Dan Hanegby was not debriefed thoroughly
- Madison Jane Lyden was not debriefed thoroughly
What does Deepwater Horizon have to do with this? Not ONE member of the USCG "opined" what could have been differently in the initial hours of the disaster. (FWIW, NOT ONE MEMBER of NTSA ever "opines" on what could have been differently in the initial hours of a disaster. NOT ONE. EVER.)
Facts first.
Now back to our regularly scheduled blame the victim threads....
-mr. bill
I wasn't speaking for what BP, Transocean, NTSA or any other organization other than my own did.
Christ, I am amazed that presumably grown people will behave so childishly. I guess I am sending another one who can't have an adult conversation off to ignore land.
#34
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
The focus, whether the garbage truck driver is legally impaired or not is could they have done anything to avoid this and could they really see the cyclist?
People are trying to pin blame on one party and it's not simple. Several events created a complex situation. The crux of this bickering is pointless. We do not investigate crimes and incidents, we report on them. That is the job of others.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
Did they wait for FACTS?
Or did *ANYONE* pre-conclude an investigation?
But hey, chicken-salad.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 08-12-18 at 09:35 PM.
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
“Our preliminary investigation has found that the actions of the bicyclist did not contribute to the collision. The actions of the TLC [livery] vehicle driver did contribute to the collision. Whether that driver receives summonses or is arrested depends on the District Attorney’s office.”
-mr. bill
-mr. bill
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Center of Central CA
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 897 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
Livery? So there was a horse involved too? This accident has become too complicated for me to continue following the thread.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 3,947
Bikes: Trek 1100 road bike, Roadmaster gravel/commuter/beater mountain bike
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2281 Post(s)
Liked 1,710 Times
in
936 Posts
Don't they teach bicycle hand signals in driver's ed any more?
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 29,549
Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Marin Muirwoods 29er, Trek FX Alpha 7.0
Mentioned: 112 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5224 Post(s)
Liked 3,581 Times
in
2,342 Posts
poor thing. undivided bike lanes are almost useless
#40
Senior Member
When the Toyota/Uber pulled out from parking, had the bicyclist not been there, would the garbage truck with the DUI driver have hit the car? Probably not, because the car driver would likely have paid more attention when getting on the vehicle lane and checked the mirror to see the truck. Drivers are less careful when invading bike lanes because bikes are not a threat to them.
What I don't understand: in dooring accdients where a cyclist is hit by a passing bus/truck caused by someone opening car door, the person opening the door is held accountable while the bus/truck driver is often not (correct me if I'm wrong). So why is it different in this case, where the car driver doesn't get a ticket?
NY Times:
Maybe the time just before the midterm election is good for advocacy.
What I don't understand: in dooring accdients where a cyclist is hit by a passing bus/truck caused by someone opening car door, the person opening the door is held accountable while the bus/truck driver is often not (correct me if I'm wrong). So why is it different in this case, where the car driver doesn't get a ticket?
NY Times:
The livery cabdriver was not ticketed, even though the police said he had been parked illegally in front of a bus stop and pulled out into the bike lane.
Last edited by vol; 08-13-18 at 03:30 PM.
#41
Senior Member
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Center of Central CA
Posts: 1,582
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 897 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times
in
8 Posts
For as long as humans have existed, so has arguing.
In the northern climates, where days are short during the winter months, it became an obsession for some, who were unable to stop even when the days got longer and it was time to plant crops.
Many such argumentative, contrarian, and vexing persons were run out of their villages . . . and became a universally-loathed, needlessly verbose, wandering tribe known as "The Lawyers".
In the northern climates, where days are short during the winter months, it became an obsession for some, who were unable to stop even when the days got longer and it was time to plant crops.
Many such argumentative, contrarian, and vexing persons were run out of their villages . . . and became a universally-loathed, needlessly verbose, wandering tribe known as "The Lawyers".
#44
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 919
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 761 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Interesting read
Good to see the Mayor saying the Toyota Uber driver should be held responsible.
A few outlets have pointed out that the police report says this particular drive was parked in a bus zone (strictly a non parking area) and then pulled into the bike lane without looking.
As the major notes, this set of a chain of events that caused her death. If he hadn't had pulled out, most likely the intoxicated garbage truck driver would have driven on.
A few outlets have pointed out that the police report says this particular drive was parked in a bus zone (strictly a non parking area) and then pulled into the bike lane without looking.
As the major notes, this set of a chain of events that caused her death. If he hadn't had pulled out, most likely the intoxicated garbage truck driver would have driven on.
#45
What happened?
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Around here somewhere
Posts: 7,927
Bikes: 3 Rollfasts, 3 Schwinns, a Shelby and a Higgins Flightliner in a pear tree!
Mentioned: 57 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1835 Post(s)
Liked 292 Times
in
255 Posts
To do that would be to say both worked together to commit the crime. The death is tragic enough without adding angst.
On top of some normal A&S crunchy granola goodness.
On top of some normal A&S crunchy granola goodness.
__________________
I don't know nothing, and I memorized it in school and got this here paper I'm proud of to show it.
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18372 Post(s)
Liked 4,507 Times
in
3,350 Posts
When I see a pedestrian or parked car in front of me, perhaps the first indication that I've actually seen the coming road hazard is looking in the other direction.
If the Uber driver was illegally parked, then that is a problem, as well as the movement from right to left across the bike lane without looking.
Unfortunately NYC has far too much traffic and too many people trying to share the same place. They also need better dedicated loading/unloading zones.
One thing that I've seen in Portland is bike lanes running to the right of both parking and bus loading zones, with an added door buffer. It still means that cyclists have to deal with pedestrians crossing the bike lane (hopefully looking), but it helps get them away from traffic. Even if one is somehow doored, then it is less likely one will be thrown into the traffic lane which is the most dangerous result of hitting a door.
I wonder if this works better in places without cross streets, as visibility at intersections is extremely important.
As far as blame the victims... young riders, no helmets, riding rental bikes in an unfamiliar city... perhaps the trifecta of risk. Likely the maneuver could have been done much better/safer.
If a major part of the death was hitting her head on the concrete, then a cheap $5 helmet might have saved her life. Should bike rental companies actively encourage and distribute helmets?
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 4,530
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2112 Post(s)
Liked 663 Times
in
443 Posts
Drivers who [kill]... have little to fear from (DA) Cy Vance, (Mayor) Bill de Blasio, and NYPD
(Our State Police and DA blamed the victim for wearing the wrong color helmet.)
-mr. bill
(Our State Police and DA blamed the victim for wearing the wrong color helmet.)
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 08-26-18 at 03:38 PM.
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: /dev/null
Posts: 675
Bikes: Soma Double Cross Disc (2017), red Hardrock FS (circa 1996)
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 217 Post(s)
Liked 155 Times
in
102 Posts
One thing that I've seen in Portland is bike lanes running to the right of both parking and bus loading zones, with an added door buffer. It still means that cyclists have to deal with pedestrians crossing the bike lane (hopefully looking), but it helps get them away from traffic. Even if one is somehow doored, then it is less likely one will be thrown into the traffic lane which is the most dangerous result of hitting a door.
I wonder if this works better in places without cross streets, as visibility at intersections is extremely important.
I wonder if this works better in places without cross streets, as visibility at intersections is extremely important.
https://goo.gl/maps/cBVZfYvSyp82 I used it once when I was kicked out of the park around 2AM.
A proposal for this already exists: https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2018/08/...ral-park-west/
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18372 Post(s)
Liked 4,507 Times
in
3,350 Posts
#50
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18372 Post(s)
Liked 4,507 Times
in
3,350 Posts
One thing I was thinking about this accident.
Australians drive on the left.
It took me a long time to get good at glancing over my left shoulder and keeping riding straight.
I find it much more difficult to look over my right shoulder (for example, merging from a center merge/turn lane).
So, even if the young woman was a very experienced rider, everything would have been backwards for her.
Australians drive on the left.
It took me a long time to get good at glancing over my left shoulder and keeping riding straight.
I find it much more difficult to look over my right shoulder (for example, merging from a center merge/turn lane).
So, even if the young woman was a very experienced rider, everything would have been backwards for her.