mrblue

For me, I've only had about an handful of really positive experiences with local bike shops. Most of the time I'm left wondering, what exactly did I just pay for? I guess my feeling is, if anyone is going to take days, weeks, months to get around to fixing my bike and then finally botch the job, then have to do it all over again (the right way), it might as well at least be me.

That being said, I am my own LBS. I order my own parts, I diagnose problems and replace/repair components myself, but most importantly I stay educated and current and I read the manuals. That way, when I take a fork in to have the alloy steerer tube cut down a few millimeters I won't discover a week later that some idiot sliced through the middle of my star nut (true story--happened many years ago and I swore it was the last time I'd ever take my bike to a local bike shop). At least around here, it seems like any nutcase can get a job wrenching on bikes. So you have either a bunch of teenagers running the shop who have no idea what they're doing or you have a bunch of curmudgeonly old men doing the wrenching who stopped paying attention to technology after the advent of the square taper bottom bracket.

Long story short, I've never been super thrilled by any local bike shop experience.

Psimet2001 

...and you're not alone.

Like I said earlier that is a lot of why I went down the path that led to me owning a shop.

There are a lot of reasons why we can see so many inconsistencies with local shops and their ability to do professional work. The PBMA (Professional Bicycle Mechanics Association), of which I am a "member" (not certified), has been attempting to try and establish some sort of set standard that can be used to at least show a baseline of experience, understanding, and ability. Unfortunately like with all things in this industry it is so passion driven that it is near impossible for any organization to approach self made successful shops and disagree on any part of their method or what they do. The old shop owners yell, "hell I wouldn't even pass your test and yet I've been one of the most successful mechanics in my area for decades and could wrench circles around that kid you just certified." It's an issue that as of now the PBMA has simply seen as "if you don't follow our exact specifications as they are listed out by the manufacturers then you aren't professional.

Anyone who has worked on bikes for more than a year or two knows that manufacturers usually miss on some details from time to time or don't anticipate what actually happens in the field.

Crux of the whole matter is economics. You simply can't pay someone what it would take for them to be at the level we would all prefer them to be at. The prices to the end customer either seem completely out of left field style expensive or they're simply out of market rate because every other shop will charge less.

This argument in the industry follows almost directly in line with "living wage" style arguments common in the rest of society. A large "chicken and egg" debate that seems to always ignore the basic economics of the current reality.

That said I can assure you that prices in shops are going to go up. I can assure you that those prices are justified. If you don't get adequate service you should absolutely call the shop on the carpet for it.

This industry is a lot like general contracting in that some vendors will look all nice, clean and professional and yet do sloppy work because they are so large that they don't have consistent labor skill. Also some vendors that are tiny and a mess that do the best work but might be unprofessional. Visa-versa as well.

The process for finding the right shop is the same as well. Word of mouth and recommendations from friends. Reading reviews. Getting quotes or visiting them to discuss opportunities. etc. the shops that will eventually win out will be the ones that can standardize the experience and level of work...think Mc Donalds or a flagship car dealer.

The reality is that shop service customers are usually low end/budget bike riders that need something basic fixed and have no idea how to do it or they are enthusiasts that just love to ride and don't have the time, skill, or desire to be bothered by mechanical work and are willing to pay.

The rest of "us" enthusiasts are people who think they can read all the doc and buy the needed tools and learn how to do everything from video and forums. I would say - "yeah you can....for the most part". I will also tell you without a doubt that if you take the time to find the right shop or the right mechanic that they can do that exact same or more challenging job better, more accurately, and in less time than you can. There will be a ton of people here who will refuse to believe it but it's just basic volume. Even if you're a great mechanic you're still doing that type of job x number of times. Any good professional or paid wrench is doing that same job 50x-100x-1,000x number of times. As a result we just know better what to look for and what will most likely happen that just isn't covered in the tech docs and videos. We also have more things we can pull out of our bag of tricks. Talent and research will never beat talent, research, and experience.

deacon mark

Great post Rob. I repair guitars for a living and it requires very specialized tools. A person could conceivably what few videos and possibly figure out how to do a fret dressing. The issue is you will need to spend some serious money for the correct tools. To pay $125 to me do your fret dressing it probably way better deal. That is bit different than bike but on the other side of it bikes not properly put together can be dangerous. Tools cost money.

Given my background I invested in some bike specific tools and do all my own mechanic work. I can build wheels for instance but I don't that everyday. I recently rebuilt a rear wheel I had, and sure enough I had to think about a lot of things. I am sure it took me at least 4 times longer than a pro and probably Rob could have done in 30 minutes. My dealings with the LBS around here in central Illinois tell me I am at least as capable as any of the mechanics, however I am going to be slower. I really think the bottom line is how much a person rides and needs maintenance and repair. If you ride serious miles then probably that person should figure out and learn to do there own work. I have a friend who is an orthopedic surgeon and he rides quite a bit for a busy doctor. However given his situation he is best served having someone else wrench his bike and simply having a spare to ride when in the shop. I might add he probably your best riding buddy if you crash.

But to the point. Many cyclist and even those who just ride bikes for work and transportation they have to be more self sufficient. The charge at the LBS to do some things is simply more than they can absorb. Not a downplay mechanics but bike repair is not all the complicated but does require patient attention to deal. That pays big dividends. The LBS that do that probably are the winners. In the end my experience is very hit or miss. The first time many years ago I had to get a new shifter than broke and replaced I knew right away I was going to have to get up to speed because it was more money than I wanted to spend. i might add though the shop did a expert job and the bike was terrific I just decided I need to learn to do that.

mrblue

I get that. Experience is key. However, I actually enjoy working on my bikes, troubleshooting and learning about them. So, personally, I'd rather take the time to learn how to do something on my bike (even if that means screwing it up and doing it over again and again...because I honestly believe one can learn a lot form the process even though that process may included lots of mistakes) as opposed to paying someone to do it faster. Also, I'm never in a hurry to get a bike fixed since I have several to choose from at any given moment. Even if my LBS were to offer me free repairs for life I'd still choose to wrench on my own bikes.

Of course in no way am I saying I know how to repair all bikes. I know how to repair and maintain MY bikes. That's it. That's all I care or need to know. If a friend brought over their full-suspension MTB and asked for repair advice I'd have nothing for them.

rubiksoval

Chalk me up as one of those people, mostly because my main issue centers around "so what?"

How much better is the guy at the local shop going to build up my bike for me? How much better is he going to tune my recently installed derailleurs? I just got new R8000 stuff. Completely different than anything I've worked on in the past, yet the hour or so it took me to read through stuff on the internet and check out some videos is still hours and DAYS shorter than the amount of time it'd have taken to take it to a shop so it could sit there for a few days until someone else did the exact same thing.

And now I know exactly how it works, so when the inevitable need to change out cables and readjust comes, I can do it more efficiently and effectively.

Same thing for building bikes, cutting steerer tubes, bleeding hydraulic brakes, building wheels. I fully understand the value it has for people who can't be bothered with it or don't have the time. But I question the assertion it'll be done so much better or more accurately.

And the time thing. What if he or she does it 20 minutes faster than I did? It takes 20 minutes just to drive to a shop to drop the thing off so I can then wait a few days so I can drive back again. This after the hours/days/weeks I'd have to waste finding the right mechanic in the first place. I think the experience thing is vastly overrated in this context. You can get plenty of experience working on your stuff. You don't need to have experience working on a myriad of different bikes or components if you're never using said bike or components. I've never worked on Campy stuff, but it hasn't hampered the performance of any of my bikes a bit.

Symox

I spent hours truing my rear wheel only to find that the dish shifted after I put the tire on. Tried to redish and true it. Seemed like a lot of turns of the ole spoke nipples so I got nervous. I took the wheel to my LBS. They took a look at it, did some measurements and said, "nothing wrong, no adjustment necessary - you did a great job." I asked about the tire causing the dishing and the mechanic said, "that's because you have Continentals on and they are hand made. The tolerances aren't as well controlled, its normal for that tire to cause the wheel to need redishing" I was impressed and asked what I owe them.
"Nah, I didn't do anything, have a great day" he said

wow, love my LBS

mrblue

I concur.

Koyote

I've found that it's best to develop a good relationship with an LBS by (1) being polite, (2) buying things from them without haggling over price, (3) bringing them beer, food, or even just occasionally giving them $40 to send our for pizza for everyone, (4) referring new customers to them, and (5) not expecting them to drop everything to do a repair when I walk in the door. Strangely enough, when I do these things, they are usually happy to see me and bend over backwards to make me happy.

mrblue

Interesting. Did you try putting a different tire on the wheel to see if the mechanic at the LBS was right? Or maybe he was just saying that because he didn't know either. Not trying to be argumentative. Just saying...

Marylander

I'm generally a DIY type and I've got a few junk drawers full of screws, washers, etc, etc I've collected over the decades. I didn't, however, have a spacer just the right thickness to fit a cassette to a particular wheel. I went to the local shop with the spacers I had and the guy went in the back, dug through his stuff, and found a couple thinner than what I had. He gave them to me. So, I bought a Park tool from him that I didn't have an immediate need for.

jon c. 

My shop never takes more than a day to get any work done. Prices are fair and the work is always good. People are always friendly. The original owner/wrench retired a few years back but his partner still runs the place and the mechanic transition went well. Love the place.

guadzilla

So basically, you are saying you cant keep track of all the incoming money....?

Jokes apart, I have a customer-facing business and I agree that people absolutely dont realize is that there is a big difference between a process that is optimized for them vs a process that is optimized for ALL customers. Yes, if we do things differently, we can make sure one customer's lead time is minimized - but that impacts everyone else. Trying to find a solution that is set up to handle volume means that each person's individual flow may be less than optimal.

And yeah, i firmly believe trying to do the best for the customer - good quality, fair pricing and offering solutions that are best for them, even if takes away some revenue from you - works out best in the long run. I routinely dissuade our customers from spending more money on stuff if isnt best suited for their needs.

KiwiDallas

OP here, checking back in after following these replies.

In the event, LBS #2 changed out the two pulley wheels the next day and I was back riding.

Being new here, I did not realize that discussing LBS was such a volatile topic on this board.

I was fascinated to read PSImet's detailed accounts of what running an LBS is like, from the point of view of the owner/ manager. It struck me as very reasonable and businesslike, especially in this crazy year when people are pulling out rusted junk from the back of the garage and demanding it be fixed up the same day. Any retail / public-facing business is difficult - slinging franchise pizza is hard, much less a business that requires some technical ability. Put me squarely on the side of the small-business owners making a go of it in good times and bad. And thank you, PSImet, for your well-written and thoughtful replies.

Interesting also to her from Deacon Mark, who repairs guitars. I'm also a guitarist, and I also have a good relationship with my longtime guitar tech. There are a lot of points in common between bike repair and guitar repair, which I'll get to.

I also sensed from some of you a whiff of contempt for folks that don't work on their bikes much. Well, as they say, a man's got to know his limits. Just like guitars, there are some areas where I say: This is beyond my knowledge even after getting a graduate level education on YouTube (snark intended). Some things you take to a pro, who will do it right the first time because he's done it several hundred times already and has the tools and experience you lack. I support small businesses, and I don't mind going there and waiting for a pro to do the job. As long as he's a pro, and he does the job correctly. And I'd prefer to avoid the embarrassment - we've all done this - of bringing in a messed up guitar or bike where we worked on it first.

This thread was also very helpful in one related area: I was thinking, "Gee, maybe I should drop by my LBS with beer or donuts for the crew to say thanks." Sounds like that's not unusual, and it's the right thing to do for those who have done right by you. I always stop my by guitar tech at Christmas time with a bottle of decent red. Keeps the relationship going, and boy, does he appreciate it.

=K

KiwiDallas

I've also received a PM or two here. Being but a n00b, I have to wait till 10 posts to be able to reply. So, DeaconMark, I can hear you but not speak to you! - I'll reply after I hit ten posts.

To get my post count up, I'm thinking of some other topics to post about that are less volatile. Hey, what kind of beers do LBS guys like to drink??

=K

Psimet2001 

Right?! I have lost track of the number of people who keep saying, "well sounds like your business is great" but at the end of the day the bank account tells you that. While most shops have a much improved cash flow this year and are probably actually turning a modest profit I honestly don't think my bank account is anywhere reflective of what it could and should have been. Too many shortages in parts and far too many BSOs (Bike Shaped Objects) walking through the door becoming huge time pits.

At one point I started telling people, "yeah I am busy but it just seems like busy work." Now at the end of the season I am in to bigger projects for people and that's enjoyable and not a "must have by tomorrow" kind of thing. I've also adapted a new saying, "Too bad it takes a near collapse of the world's economies for the bike industry to do 'OK' for once. Says a lot about the industry."

Once long ago a friend, client and fellow forum member here - PCad - was complaining about a cable routing or setup on his bike. I took the time to type out an explanation of how to fix or troubleshoot the issue. He replied quite simply, "Rob, I have people for that."

It always stuck with me. The DIY phenomena isn't new to this industry or any other and believe it or not the industry is not trying to destroy it or even reduce it. Why do you think we sell tools, put out videos, publish tech manuals (although I will confirm that there is a lot of specific tech info that is NOT available to the general public and half the time isn't even available to me)?...but anyone's ability to read and follow manuals and build and maintain their own bike isn't even remote impressive or tell me much about anyone's abilities. Watching Jose swap out shifters in massively sub freezing temperatures during a single lap (5-9 minutes) in the pits of the Elite Women's National Championships is impressive. Pulling off brake bleeding in a lap (5-9 minutes), finding and fixing a problem for a rider who can barely mumble out a clue as they grab another bike and run off leaving behind a bike covered in mud... not only is that impressive but it's fun. It also develops skills at troubleshooting that almost no shade tree mechanic will ever have the opportunity to develop.

So buy the tools and read the manuals and spend your nights on the forums and YouTube. You're not "our" customer and "we're" OK with that. Many of us will do a better job than "you" (the DIY guy). Just like you will do a better job in whatever it is that you do for a living than someone who does it as a hobby or on the side...because you do it daily. We will still be wrenching on the odd ball problems, the enthusiasts that 'have people (us)' for that, and the bread and butter of the industry: the daily cheap bikes that eclipse the number of enthusiasts by dollar spent and shear volume. To drive that home - think about treadmills. How many treadmills are sold in the world? Now how many are actually used? How many are nice ones and are used near daily by avid users? It's the same thing. While the nice ones may have a higher price tag and have cooler tech they are such a small part of the total number sold.

This ^ - It's not a competition. I don't stand outside my shop all day and shake my fist at the hundreds of riders that go by my shop on the path because they may have wrenched on their own bikes and foiled my plans of cycling world domination. I'm busting my butt and trying to keep my tiny slice of the "American Dream" from turning into a nightmare. Just like any other small business. Even if you're one of the DIY guys - swing by and bring a treat. I don't need to work on your bike. We can talk about bikes while I am working on a different one. The treats are always appreciated. Even by the recovering alcoholic mechanic who accepts the 6 pack with a smile and simply passes it on to another mechanic who they know would enjoy it.

Psimet2001 

Yes.

KiwiDallas

It's a small world sometimes. I'd mentioned that I play guitar for fun, and I'm a longtime member on various guitar forums. Peter (PatentCAD) was a regular on TheGearPage guitar forum, and he was as smart, experienced and opinionated about guitars and playing music as he was on this board. He had quite a guitar collection, he played them live , and he played them well. I, and numerous others from the guitar forums, were shocked to hear he was killed on his bike this year.

Anyway, back to our discussion on LBS ...

=K

gsa103

One of the hardest things for a LBS is dealing with customer expectations. I say this as home mechanic, because I know my expectations are certainly not inline with others on the forum. My normal solution to balky parts is to replace the whole dang thing, because new and shiny! Many people on here will spend many man-hours just trying to keep and old piece running. Let alone those who want NOS parts....
This is even worse with the bikes that someone pulled out of a garage.
I was helping my father-in-law tune up a early 2000's Specialized. The chain was completely stretched, the cassette is probably shot, the front shifter cables are fraying, and the rims & brakes aren't good. You're probably better off buying a new bike than trying to fix it, especially if you had to pay shop labor rates. In the end, I got it shifting the best I could, put new brake pads on it, and called it a day.
That's not an easy situation for a LBS to manage. Do you advise the customer they should buy a new bike? Some people will definitely take offense at that. Recommended that they spend $250+ to address the immediate issues, knowing that in six months they'll likely need to spend another $250+? Or do the minimum job for $150, knowing that it'll likely break again soon?

deacon mark

Well being runner primarily and coming from that background my treadmill has I think 4000 miles on it and I had to replace the belt a year ago. I have had this one ( Sole) for little over 3 years. My previous Sole last about 9 years and I finally beat it to death my guess is it had I would guess 5000. I am probably a complete anomaly in the treadmill industry I get the best warranty because I actually wear out parts. In fact some thing happened on my Cyclops wind trainer, I blew through the flywheel and they sent me a new one free. Now that is a company Cyclops Trainers they got my business forever. In fact after that I upgrade to a fluid trainer much quieter and nicer.

Psimet2001 

This is a situation that comes up frequently in all shops but tends to be asked about more and more in the industry forums- People looking for ways to better manage that situation.

This year it was especially difficult because of 2 factors: 1. There just weren't any parts available so many times we couldn't even repair the bike. 2. There weren't any bikes available so many times people couldn't even sell them a new one.

I have found time and time again that we tend to do better with those customers because we just don't sell bikes so all we can do is tell them how much to repair it and let them make their own decision. When asked "do you think it's worth it" I always say, "Only you can judge that one. it's your bike" "What's it worth?" "I have no idea. I don't buy or sell bikes."

we do see many customers who went to the "other" shops and were told their bike wasn't worth fixing and that they could buy a new one for just a little more. To these customers they always found that experience offensive. I know that not a single shop meant it in that way but it does come across that way.

Psimet2001 

Yup - and I'm one of the guys that bought some sort of cheap sporting goods store treadmill nearly 20 years ago and has roughly 500-1k miles on it total. ...and that's probably 300-800 more miles than it was ever designed to go.

Most box store bikes that sell for ~$100 really aren't meant to be ridden more than a handful of times and for more than a handful of miles.

Kabuki12

I have vintage steel road bikes and there are two shops near me that cater to us and I try to buy from them whenever I need something. I do my own work so I don't ask them to work on my bikes unless I don't have time or the correct tool for a freewheel swap or something like that . They always take care of it right away . Both shops are great! I had some damaged spokes on the drive side of the rear wheel and had them replace the spokes(lacing wheels is not my strong point). Reasonable charge and excellent work and that's why I go.

Koyote

Exactly. At my regular shop, in about June, the co-owner told me: "We're working about 30% harder for about 30% less money." In other words, repairs and maintenance take more time, and are less profitable than new bike sales.

I was there last weekend, though, and they are finally getting in new bikes - and have waiting lists of customers who want to buy them. So, hopefully, things are turning a corner.

I was dropping off a nice older race bike for some work. At that moment, they had a wal-mart type bike in a repair stand, and the head mechanic looked at my bike, smiled, and said "I like working on those."

impolexg

This is such a great thread with so many great comments. I always thought bike mechanics were too expensive and now I realize how massively underpaid a quality bike mechanic really is. I was totally expecting the care, knowledge and professionalism of an airplane or marine mechanic but I'm not willing to pay them $150/hour. There's not many things in the mechanical world that require the skill that is needed to build a good wheel.

Wanted to add that the shop closest to me was stocked with the worst mechanics I'd ever seen. I would never take my bike there and I pitied their customers. The strangest thing was all the stuff they had for sale at the service desk: chains, tire sealant, multi-tools, chainlube, tires - it was all terrible schlock - stuff that I consider anti-customer. You name it and somehow they'd managed to stock the worst, least appropriate choice for this area. Was like a parody of a helpful bike store. I would go in only when I had no choice and even then I'd often be let down because they wouldn't have what I needed. I went to buy a replacement sram pulley and they just wanted to argue that I was asking for the wrong part (I had the part number and just wanted them to order it.)

Less than 2 years ago I went in cringing and hoping to buy a long valved tube and was blown away by the changes. The old mechanics were all gone and there was a guy at the service desk that knew his stuff. Gone were the branded mtb tires that no one would ever buy, replaced by the great tires from maxxis and vittoria that people here actually use. The chains now included a good selection of kmc's zinc coated range, including baggies of inexpensive chain-links. They now sold my preferred tire sealant, boots that worked, big bottles of shimano mineral oil and had a selection of reasonable chain lubes for wet mtb riding. Was like they were catering to me.

They went from being a shop I thought was for the uneducated to go in and get scammed - to being a helpful place with good advice.

Someone came in with a clue and made everything right and now I can recommend the shop. Pretty cool. Hope they can survive the 'rona.

noodle soup

+1

We have a ton of new bikes now, but all low end models. The nice bikes might arrive before Christmas, but I'm not betting on it.