Scared of the cars passing me
08-29-16, 01:56 PM
#51
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Two different issues. Drunk Driving is much easier to solve than of the moment inattention. Inattentive driving is something that numerous countries have been trying desperately to solve for decades, long before cell phones, and none have had much success. It can be done by making a street so dangerous feeling (very narrow with hard curbs/cars on either side not just paint and numerous chicanes) that it forces drivers to slow down and pay attention but cannot be done on faster or higher traffic roadways. This is what underpins The Netherlands Sustainable Safety initiative, why it has been so successful, and why others are following.
08-29-16, 01:58 PM
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Yes, you will never have protected bikeways on every street and road nor even on half of them. Nor do you need that.
The Netherlands essentially has 2 types of general roads; Bicycle Streets and Other. Bicycle Streets are those where motor traffic and bicycles share the road. Speed limits are 18 mph or below and in many cases cars are not allowed to pass bicycle riders. The majority of these are narrow single-lane one-way streets and often with chicanes produced by alternate side parking or other hard elements. I ride on these frequently and they are generally quite safe.
If speed is to be above 18 mph then there will be a separate bikeway either a painted bike lane or a physically separated protected bikeway. If speeds are to be above 25 mph then there will be a protected bikeway (protected by curb, grass, parked cars, etc.).
In addition there are motorways that are, similar to our interstates and highways, for motor vehicles only. There are also numerous bikeways not attached to any motor traffic road.
Applying Dutch CROW standards to NYC: The majority of streets would be limited to 18 MPH, designed to enforce that, and shared by all. Some number of larger streets would have higher speed limits and volumes of traffic along with protected bikeways. And this is actually the direction that NYC is slowly going.
The Netherlands essentially has 2 types of general roads; Bicycle Streets and Other. Bicycle Streets are those where motor traffic and bicycles share the road. Speed limits are 18 mph or below and in many cases cars are not allowed to pass bicycle riders. The majority of these are narrow single-lane one-way streets and often with chicanes produced by alternate side parking or other hard elements. I ride on these frequently and they are generally quite safe.
If speed is to be above 18 mph then there will be a separate bikeway either a painted bike lane or a physically separated protected bikeway. If speeds are to be above 25 mph then there will be a protected bikeway (protected by curb, grass, parked cars, etc.).
In addition there are motorways that are, similar to our interstates and highways, for motor vehicles only. There are also numerous bikeways not attached to any motor traffic road.
Applying Dutch CROW standards to NYC: The majority of streets would be limited to 18 MPH, designed to enforce that, and shared by all. Some number of larger streets would have higher speed limits and volumes of traffic along with protected bikeways. And this is actually the direction that NYC is slowly going.
08-29-16, 03:04 PM
#53
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I'm curious how other commuters handle getting close passed.
To get to work, I have to get off the MUP and ride on a two lane street for about two miles. Because I have to cross an aqueduct and a freeway, the road choices are few.
I give myself about four feet from the parked cars and this puts me about a foot inside the lane. This lane position causes drivers to squeeze past me in the same lane. If I move left to take the lane, drivers punish me by passing close at high acceleration. These are both scary.
How do you all handle this situation? I'm thinking the best thing is to just stay as far right as possible and ignore the close passes. Does anyone have any advice? Thanks.
To get to work, I have to get off the MUP and ride on a two lane street for about two miles. Because I have to cross an aqueduct and a freeway, the road choices are few.
I give myself about four feet from the parked cars and this puts me about a foot inside the lane. This lane position causes drivers to squeeze past me in the same lane. If I move left to take the lane, drivers punish me by passing close at high acceleration. These are both scary.
How do you all handle this situation? I'm thinking the best thing is to just stay as far right as possible and ignore the close passes. Does anyone have any advice? Thanks.
Find a place where you can cross the road the same as a pedestrian and then you have all the traffic in your view.
You are scared because you know you are NOT a car and don't understand why drivers do that.
They are getting out of your way, or they are also impatient but you are there to share the road as much as they are.
But here is a big problem. Cars are not supposed to use part or all of the turn lane to pass you. And they may not have seen you very well. Bikes scare drivers too sometimes. We aren't as visible as we want to think and aren't expected to be there necessarily.
They are probably trying to figure you out as much.
But taking the lane is a poor term. It always seems to assert that it's your right to take it and that all others are to yield and follow.
No. All vehicles and pedestrians share the road and work together to get where they are going. We have to watch and keep safe. If you are not comfortable with traffic the way you are in it now, start simple and work on it. You may want to change your route around some to use some less crowded roads.
An interstate highway is not a place I'd ride. My town is split by one and we have two overpasses spanning it, and two railroad overpasses plus an railroad underpass with walkways. We had two railroad crossings but one was closed so east-west traffic is more concentrated there and is still close enough to the interstate exchange to have heavy traffic there as it goes out to the businesses on the east side and the highway as well as the arterial into Idaho, also heavy in traffic and leading to the interstate a few miles away.
I've been here 38 years and had a lot of time to learn and adapt to traffic changes (a lot of them too). I don't like some of the routes I have to take, so I am even more careful there but I am watching them and staying out of heavy traffic. The bike lanes end on the Oregon side. You are either on the shoulder/curb or you take the sidewalk from the river bridge the sidewalks go all the way. They are not used a lot by pedestrians and you have to be aware of cars entering and leaving the driveways as there are many businesses.
But spend some time and get to know your traffic and get more confidence in your ride.
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08-30-16, 12:56 PM
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That is largely ineffective though. Incidents of bicycle riders being killed or injured are overwhelming due to brief inattentive driving by otherwise fairly law abiding drivers — a quick look at a cell, something on the cars display, grabbing a bite of a sandwich, checking out the gal walking on the other side, a bee or other bug in the car, acknowledging something a passenger said, etc.
NO country has ever achieved ANY level of safety for bicycles sharing the road with cars. You are about 5 - 12 times as likely to be killed and 70 times as likely to be injured riding on the road in the US as riding in a car (per mile). OTOH in The Netherlands it is slightly safer to ride a bicycle. In Denmark it is about the same risk and in Sweden, Norway, and Finland the risk is only slightly higher. These lower risks due primarily to protected bikeways.
The Netherlands, Denmark, and others have found that the only way to make sharing somewhat safe is very narrow roads with frequent chicanes, 12-18 mph speed limits, and generally no passing. By narrow they've found curb to curb or curb to parked cars width of about 8' with parking side switched frequently to create the chicanes is best. They know that they can't depend on drivers paying attention or obeying laws so they force it by design.
NO country has ever achieved ANY level of safety for bicycles sharing the road with cars. You are about 5 - 12 times as likely to be killed and 70 times as likely to be injured riding on the road in the US as riding in a car (per mile). OTOH in The Netherlands it is slightly safer to ride a bicycle. In Denmark it is about the same risk and in Sweden, Norway, and Finland the risk is only slightly higher. These lower risks due primarily to protected bikeways.
The Netherlands, Denmark, and others have found that the only way to make sharing somewhat safe is very narrow roads with frequent chicanes, 12-18 mph speed limits, and generally no passing. By narrow they've found curb to curb or curb to parked cars width of about 8' with parking side switched frequently to create the chicanes is best. They know that they can't depend on drivers paying attention or obeying laws so they force it by design.
08-30-16, 01:38 PM
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I handle the problem by avoidance, honestly. My route, mostly on bike trails or low traffic surface streets, gives me that luxury.
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09-04-16, 09:45 PM
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Yes, you gotta earn those merit badges. +1 vvvvv
NYC has about 6,000 miles of surface streets inside the urban core. 6,000 miles! Gets you to every single address in the city. And if you ride a bicycle you are going to have to get used to the FACT that there will NEVER be a duplicate network of protected bikeways, in NYC or in any other city in North America, that will rival the surface street infrastructure created over centuries for the movement of all people, but became co-opted for the movement of motor-vehicles. Even the Netherlands relies mainly on strict speed and other vehicle regulations to keep cyclists safe on those roads that are not expressly for the use of unpowered vehicles.
Bikes and cars must learn to share the roads going forward. Pining for a 'separate but equal' road system for bicycles will relegate cycling to a pastime again. If there are many more cycling only roadways, drivers will incorrectly assume that bicycles can go everywhere they need to go without ever needing to travel on surface streets. Its a bad idea all this "protected bikeway" advocacy. We need to press for stiffer sanctions against aggressive behavior towards cyclists trying to share the road. AND cyclists need to actually share the road. 'Taking the lane", "Lane Control", these tactics are not "sharing the road". If you can ride comfortably for any distance at 20mph on a road with a 35mph speed limit while "taking the lane" you are part of the problem. If the door zone is dangerous, it is because you are moving too fast in it. People don't fling car doors open in your face everyday or even every month. People slow down so they wont sweat (what?) but they won't slow down to reduce the chances of a fatality in the low likelihood of a dooring?
I am really fed up with all the fear in here. You are just feeding one anothers insecurities. When I am out and about I don't see any evidence of generalized dooraphobia. In Portland the vast majority of cyclists ride in the door zone. Whether its a painted door zone deathtrap bikelane or simply a surface street without designation that is shared by bikes and cars. Hell even on legal sharrows, for the very large part, cyclists adopt a road position towards the right edge of the road. Cars can't pass on a sharrow but... conditioning... a heck of a thing. So, lets get real. Let's see some videos of the hard-core door zone haters doing their "five feet from the parked cars" thing. I will not believe it until I see it.
Bikes and cars must learn to share the roads going forward. Pining for a 'separate but equal' road system for bicycles will relegate cycling to a pastime again. If there are many more cycling only roadways, drivers will incorrectly assume that bicycles can go everywhere they need to go without ever needing to travel on surface streets. Its a bad idea all this "protected bikeway" advocacy. We need to press for stiffer sanctions against aggressive behavior towards cyclists trying to share the road. AND cyclists need to actually share the road. 'Taking the lane", "Lane Control", these tactics are not "sharing the road". If you can ride comfortably for any distance at 20mph on a road with a 35mph speed limit while "taking the lane" you are part of the problem. If the door zone is dangerous, it is because you are moving too fast in it. People don't fling car doors open in your face everyday or even every month. People slow down so they wont sweat (what?) but they won't slow down to reduce the chances of a fatality in the low likelihood of a dooring?
I am really fed up with all the fear in here. You are just feeding one anothers insecurities. When I am out and about I don't see any evidence of generalized dooraphobia. In Portland the vast majority of cyclists ride in the door zone. Whether its a painted door zone deathtrap bikelane or simply a surface street without designation that is shared by bikes and cars. Hell even on legal sharrows, for the very large part, cyclists adopt a road position towards the right edge of the road. Cars can't pass on a sharrow but... conditioning... a heck of a thing. So, lets get real. Let's see some videos of the hard-core door zone haters doing their "five feet from the parked cars" thing. I will not believe it until I see it.
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09-06-16, 09:06 AM
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I could, but I'm not willing to spend the time to go pedestrian speeds for two miles. I've moved to a street that has higher speeds but also has a painted bike lane between the traffic lane and the parked cars. This has reduced the conflict with the motorists, which is great.
09-06-16, 10:53 AM
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I read that the majority of cyclists being hit by cars, is caused by them riding on sidewalks (crossing the street from a sidewalk) since cars are not expecting that,
or when cyclists are riding towards traffic on the wrong side of the road. That's what a lot of people do becaues they think it's safer, but it's really not because cars are not expecting to see bikes on the left side of the road, so most times they aren't even looking there.
The safest place for you to ride is actually on the side of the road going with traffic. When it's a wide road and cars have plenty of room to pass without endangering you, you can be off to the side. But if the road is too narrow for a car to pass you, the safest thing for you to do is move more into the MIDDLE of the lane, so that they cannot pass you.
And that is a safe place to be, because they can see you there.
The best thing to do is ride like cars do, and use hand signals for turning...
When it comes to narrow roads that are super busy with very FAST moving traffic - I literally just ride on the sidewalk. There's no way I could ride fast enough to keep up with them and I would just piss off the whole line of traffic slowing them down. A few roads around here are just not designed for cyclists to be on.
Or I should say "slower" cyclists LoL.
I think if you were a very fast road racer type person, you could keep up with fast moving traffic no problem, but not me.
And vehicles appreciate when you drive like a vehicle and use the hand signals and let them know what you are doing on the road, that's probably your safest bet, because then traffic knows what you're going to do so they won't hit you, instead of riding on sidewalks or riding against traffic like some people do when they are nervous about riding with traffic.
Oh, and I totally just ordered a handlebar mirror for my new E-bike, it'll be here in a few days. I've never used one in my entire life, but I think it would make me feel 96% more safe, being able to see crazy traffic creep up behind me, that would give me time to swerve out of the way of some reckless driver accidentally swerves into me.
And one thing I do, because I don't trust crazy drivers, is make sure to utilize all the bike trails and shortcuts in town, and also planning my route ahead of time to take roads that aren't as busy as much as possible, but sooner or later I still end up having to go through busy parts of town. And if I come to a really bad intersection, sometimes I just get off and walk and be a pedestrian for a few minutes. Sometimes I'd rather do that rather than risk my life when traffic is absolutely nuts.
We have very rude drivers here. I've been nearly hit many times.
Just the other day this woman was pulled over on the side of the road by a cop. And he was just walking away from her window, and I smiled at him as I rode by and I was about to pass her car, when she suddenly turned her engine on and swerved right into me. I had to swerve into the middle of the road to get away. We came an inch away from hitting eachother. Then the cop turned his sirens on right away and pulled her over again.
This other recent time, I was just riding by a car that was parked on the side of the road, and he was planned on backing out. I slowed down and stopped because I couldn't make eye contact, but I saw that he wasn't moving so I proceeded to go past, and he backed up right into me. Right into me. It was very slow so it didn't harm me, but still. It's times like that where you need a freaking air horn.
When I can't make eye contact with them, there's really no telling if they've seen me or not. But I'm thinking of ordering an air horn for occasions like that.
or when cyclists are riding towards traffic on the wrong side of the road. That's what a lot of people do becaues they think it's safer, but it's really not because cars are not expecting to see bikes on the left side of the road, so most times they aren't even looking there.
The safest place for you to ride is actually on the side of the road going with traffic. When it's a wide road and cars have plenty of room to pass without endangering you, you can be off to the side. But if the road is too narrow for a car to pass you, the safest thing for you to do is move more into the MIDDLE of the lane, so that they cannot pass you.
And that is a safe place to be, because they can see you there.
The best thing to do is ride like cars do, and use hand signals for turning...
When it comes to narrow roads that are super busy with very FAST moving traffic - I literally just ride on the sidewalk. There's no way I could ride fast enough to keep up with them and I would just piss off the whole line of traffic slowing them down. A few roads around here are just not designed for cyclists to be on.
Or I should say "slower" cyclists LoL.
I think if you were a very fast road racer type person, you could keep up with fast moving traffic no problem, but not me.
And vehicles appreciate when you drive like a vehicle and use the hand signals and let them know what you are doing on the road, that's probably your safest bet, because then traffic knows what you're going to do so they won't hit you, instead of riding on sidewalks or riding against traffic like some people do when they are nervous about riding with traffic.
Oh, and I totally just ordered a handlebar mirror for my new E-bike, it'll be here in a few days. I've never used one in my entire life, but I think it would make me feel 96% more safe, being able to see crazy traffic creep up behind me, that would give me time to swerve out of the way of some reckless driver accidentally swerves into me.
And one thing I do, because I don't trust crazy drivers, is make sure to utilize all the bike trails and shortcuts in town, and also planning my route ahead of time to take roads that aren't as busy as much as possible, but sooner or later I still end up having to go through busy parts of town. And if I come to a really bad intersection, sometimes I just get off and walk and be a pedestrian for a few minutes. Sometimes I'd rather do that rather than risk my life when traffic is absolutely nuts.
We have very rude drivers here. I've been nearly hit many times.
Just the other day this woman was pulled over on the side of the road by a cop. And he was just walking away from her window, and I smiled at him as I rode by and I was about to pass her car, when she suddenly turned her engine on and swerved right into me. I had to swerve into the middle of the road to get away. We came an inch away from hitting eachother. Then the cop turned his sirens on right away and pulled her over again.
This other recent time, I was just riding by a car that was parked on the side of the road, and he was planned on backing out. I slowed down and stopped because I couldn't make eye contact, but I saw that he wasn't moving so I proceeded to go past, and he backed up right into me. Right into me. It was very slow so it didn't harm me, but still. It's times like that where you need a freaking air horn.
When I can't make eye contact with them, there's really no telling if they've seen me or not. But I'm thinking of ordering an air horn for occasions like that.
Last edited by thunderseed; 09-06-16 at 11:05 AM.
09-06-16, 12:32 PM
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I read that the majority of cyclists being hit by cars, is caused by them riding on sidewalks (crossing the street from a sidewalk) since cars are not expecting that,
or when cyclists are riding towards traffic on the wrong side of the road. That's what a lot of people do becaues they think it's safer, but it's really not because cars are not expecting to see bikes on the left side of the road, so most times they aren't even looking there.
The safest place for you to ride is actually on the side of the road going with traffic. ...
or when cyclists are riding towards traffic on the wrong side of the road. That's what a lot of people do becaues they think it's safer, but it's really not because cars are not expecting to see bikes on the left side of the road, so most times they aren't even looking there.
The safest place for you to ride is actually on the side of the road going with traffic. ...
Actual data indicate that 40-47% of fatalities and over 60% of serious injuries are people riding on the road with traffic being hit from behind.
One Report: https://bikeleague.org/sites/default/...port_final.pdf
09-06-16, 03:22 PM
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This is incorrect. This is Bicycle Driving / Vehicular Cycling theory from John Forrester in the 1970's. This is what has been promoted in the US for about 30-40 years and is what has resulted in the US having the highest bicycle fatality rate of any developed country and the lowest modal share of bicycling.
Actual data indicate that 40-47% of fatalities and over 60% of serious injuries are people riding on the road with traffic being hit from behind.
One Report: https://bikeleague.org/sites/default/...port_final.pdf
Actual data indicate that 40-47% of fatalities and over 60% of serious injuries are people riding on the road with traffic being hit from behind.
One Report: https://bikeleague.org/sites/default/...port_final.pdf
The only way that I see it's possible for someone to get hit from behind while riding in the center of the right hand lane, is through road rage. Because the drivers would have to see you there. The only way they would hit you is if they happen to lose control of their vehicle, which would be rare, or if they develop a psychopathic case of road rage and make the decision to purposely run you over, and I really hope the latter isn't becoming more common around here. Just recently I heard about a woman driver who got angry and deliberately ran a motorcycle off the road. That's scary. But even walking around town these days is scary, with all the accounts of murder happening around here.
But in my experience, it rings absolutely true. And I've been riding my bike and a longboard in town for many years. I've never had any near hits from behind when I ride on the side or to the middle of the lane because they see me, especially when I use hand signals. And, you know, I've also pissed off a lot of drivers in my time, especially by fingering them and having my own bout of road rage. I'm surprised they haven't run me over.
For me, the only hazards I ever encounter are always from
1: riding on the sidewalk
2. riding too close to the sidewalk
3. riding too close to parked cars near the sidewalk or through parking lots
4. riding on the wrong side of the road
I can't count how many times I've nearly been hit by cars from riding on the sidewalk (always when going across driveways or crosswalks or roads that don't have crosswalks). They don't expect me to be in driveways (because it's hard for them to see me on the sidewalk but also they can't judge how fast I'm going) so they decide to turn into the driveway as I'm going through it. They don't expect bikes to be speeding across crosswalks either.
It's even worse on a longboard because people may still see you but they don't realize how fast you are actually going. And I swear longboards can go faster than cars and bikes, but they just don't expect that.
And cars really don't see bikes that are riding way too close to the sidewalk either. They will merge right into you or cut right in front of you and then slam the breaks on when they realize they can't make the turn yet, causing you to slam into the back of their car. I swear people like that may see you, but they might just be impatient. But the thing is, if you move over to the center of the lane, they can't do that.
Unless they are psychopaths with the intent to run you over, that is. I guess, they could also happen to lose control of the vehicle or something, but that has never happened to me or anyone that I know of.
And I also don't want to ride too close to the side of the street especially if there are parked cars there, or else I'll run into car doors that open and unexpecting pedestrians that are trying to cross the street.
This one time when I was on my longboard, there was a car that parked on the side of the road a fair distance in front of me, and for some reason I thought it was moving, but that was just an illusion. And I didn't realize how fast I was moving either, so when I turned to look away for a few seconds at a bunch of people nearby, and I was very surprised when I ended up ramming straight into the back of the parked car with enough force to send me doing multiple flips over the top of it. And of course everyone just laughed at me, thinking, "look at that girl trying to look cool on her giant skateboard" (no one knew what longboards were back then).
Drivers nearly drive straight into me when I ride against traffic, especially at corners. I still do it sometimes when I'm in a hurry to get somewhere on the left, but generally, it's pretty risky.
Completely unrelated, but I swear being a pedestrian in this town is more dangerous than being a cyclist. Every time I am walking across a crosswalk, some impatient idiot in a car always tries to drive up my butt. Like literally trying to drive up my butt. It makes me so mad that I really want to bend over next time it happens, drop my pants and open it up so they can just drive on right up there.
But then I worry that would encourage them to actually try.
Last edited by thunderseed; 09-06-16 at 03:25 PM.
09-07-16, 10:22 AM
#62
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Put a lot of blinkies on the back of your bike and your helmet, wear bright clothing, put a child carrier on the back with a fake infant, and a couple lollipops sticking out the side. In other words, try to look weird, and no one will mess with you. Maybe a couple rear view mirrors too.
I think there is some truth to this. I made a home-made stuff carrier for my last bike out of a Tuff plastic tub that was bungeed to my rear rack. Then, I covered it with conspicuity tape that was VERY obvious. It looked ridiculous but no one ever punish-passed me OR even honked at me a single time. Now that I have my new bike without the reflective trunk, I get a lot more harassment (although it's still not much). I *love* conspicuity tape and am in the process of covering my new bike with it.
I would also gladly wear and use more blinkies day and night if I had cash burning a hole in my pocket. Maybe if I make people smile, or laugh a little, or say "dahell?" by glowing in the dark AND in the day, maybe it's less likely they'll stereotype me as one of those mythical cyclists who only exist to make driving more of a pain in the rear for motorists than it already is.
Just my two cents. I'm sure this approach isn't for everyone! But I think it's fun.
09-07-16, 12:11 PM
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Another important thing to note is that being predictable, no matter which part of the lane you travel in is critical. It makes sense to move left in the lane if you think you will serve in and out to avoid hazards. The swerving is hard as it is last minute, and changes your lane position rapidly. Better to take more of the lane than switch positions often.
