How Many Calories/Carbs Do I Really Need?
#76
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Not. Although I've ridden with a woman who preferred steak and wine after a double metric. OTOH, she doesn't ride with us anymore. That's kinda like the vegan woman who ordered liver and onions for dinner on a tour in Montana. Good choice. My go-to is 3/1 malto/whey protein. Then a beer. Then a bagel. Then dinner.
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#77
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I've been following some of the nutrition & hydration threads and have found them informative. However, I don't see much discussion about hydration & nutrition needs for rides of varying intensities. For example, do I really need 60-90g carbs/hr. if I'm spending most of my time in Zone 2 (heart rate)? IMO, I don't believe I do; but I'm not a nutrition expert and I always try to tie my training decisions to some credible research.
(snip)
(snip)
Most of my 3 to 4 1/2 hour Sunday rides are Zone 2. What I've found is that as long as it really IS a Zone 2 ride, I might start feeling a little hungry after 3 hours or so, so I eat a bar, and that gets me home without any feeling of low blood sugar. Now, if I do one the climbs we have here, that's half an hour to an hour of mostly Zone 3 and 4. I find that leaves me feeling hungry at about 2 1/2 hours, so I eat a bar. And if the ride then extends out past 4 hours, I'll eat another one.
So, I always carry two bars, but I only eat them if I feel hungry, BUT I don't wait till I feel REALLY, REALLY hungry, because I made that mistake once. I bonked once, 3 grueling miles from the end of a long ride. I forget the particulars of the ride and what I didn't eat, but I remember feeling distinctly hungry at 16 miles from home - my last opportunity to buy something to eat - and I thought I could just soldier on. "HTFU", I thought. And I ended up crawling home wanting nothing more than to stop and sleep. I got home and every part of my body was saying "SLEEP!", except for one spark in my brain that said "eat". I ate a candy bar and a few minutes later I was back to normal - at least, as normal as I ever get.
That's it. If you're doing lower intensity, just make sure you take along a couple bars, but only eat them if you feel hungry. If you're doing mostly low intensity, you don't need to obsess over your carb intake. It's really easy to end up out in the weeds on this stuff, because there are a zillion people out there who will tell you wildly different things, from advising you ride fasted to those who will tell you you NEED 90g of carbs an hour.
Listen to your body. It will tell you what it needs.
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#78
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Not. Although I've ridden with a woman who preferred steak and wine after a double metric. OTOH, she doesn't ride with us anymore. That's kinda like the vegan woman who ordered liver and onions for dinner on a tour in Montana. Good choice. My go-to is 3/1 malto/whey protein. Then a beer. Then a bagel. Then dinner.
Then add fries and a shake.....
Also, liver and onions suck.
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#79
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When I started counting calories to lose weight, I was ASTONISHED at the caloric content of even a relatively "light" fast food lunch. Some of these big burgers are almost a day's calories all by themselves!
Then add fries and a shake.....
Also, liver and onions suck.
Then add fries and a shake.....
Also, liver and onions suck.
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#80
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None.
None. Carbs are the only thing we eat that isn’t necessary.
You can completely do away with carbs. Not so with fat, protein, vitamin, minerals.
You can completely do away with carbs. Not so with fat, protein, vitamin, minerals.
#81
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You can operate for much longer than we're told; the basic guidelines for calories needed vs. exercise time/intensity is all wrong.
I only know this, because of my Appalachian Trail thru-hike and several other long-distance hikes I've completed. When I thru-hiked the AT in 2006 I had to ration my food, since you could only carry so much and my town visits (resupplies) were anywhere for every 7 - 14-days. In the beginning I was very irritable from my low-calorie intake and my all-day walking up and down mountains. However, after about a month, I noticed a significant and incredible change in my body; my body became much more efficient and the irritability soon stopped. My intake never changed much, but my mileage and speed changed drastically. I was going much further and faster on the same calories.
I generally ate a pack of oatmeal in the morning; few handfuls of gorp during the day; and a little over a handful of rice at night. I had beef jerky and various veggies I dehydrated and threw into the rice at night for dinner. This is less than I had eaten at home before my thru-hike, yet I was never so healthy and my body was never so efficient at processing calories. However, when I did get into town I was a total eating machine. There's a name for this special type of hunger: Hiker Appetite. I could close down an all-you-can-eat buffet.
I've applied this knowledge after my hike to keep my weight down. I never eat before I go on a ride/run and I do limit my food intake, much more than I did before that hike in 2006. The thing about calorie burn, is that your body does get more efficient, if you make it, but of course there's a limit, but it's amazing how little calories you can get by on. It's a personal thing, you have to figure it out for yourself.
I only know this, because of my Appalachian Trail thru-hike and several other long-distance hikes I've completed. When I thru-hiked the AT in 2006 I had to ration my food, since you could only carry so much and my town visits (resupplies) were anywhere for every 7 - 14-days. In the beginning I was very irritable from my low-calorie intake and my all-day walking up and down mountains. However, after about a month, I noticed a significant and incredible change in my body; my body became much more efficient and the irritability soon stopped. My intake never changed much, but my mileage and speed changed drastically. I was going much further and faster on the same calories.
I generally ate a pack of oatmeal in the morning; few handfuls of gorp during the day; and a little over a handful of rice at night. I had beef jerky and various veggies I dehydrated and threw into the rice at night for dinner. This is less than I had eaten at home before my thru-hike, yet I was never so healthy and my body was never so efficient at processing calories. However, when I did get into town I was a total eating machine. There's a name for this special type of hunger: Hiker Appetite. I could close down an all-you-can-eat buffet.
I've applied this knowledge after my hike to keep my weight down. I never eat before I go on a ride/run and I do limit my food intake, much more than I did before that hike in 2006. The thing about calorie burn, is that your body does get more efficient, if you make it, but of course there's a limit, but it's amazing how little calories you can get by on. It's a personal thing, you have to figure it out for yourself.
#82
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1. It's very personal.
2. You really need to do trial and error to see how you feel and what works for you.
3. I've not done it, but some people swear by the sweat analysis for your hydration needs at least. To get the sodium and other mineral content right or some kind of snakeoil.
4. Most of us don't need much as we simply don't burn much. Sometimes if you "feel" you need it is simply because you don't have the training capacity to handle the effort you're trying to do for that long (even if heartrate isn't going up to infinity). Not a matter of not enough "nutrition". I can do about 90min max of sweetspot in a workout. Lower end sweetspot. If I up the power to the upper end of sweetspot, that's an hour. Has nothing to do with me needing to eat more to do it. Need to train more!
I did a 2hr Zwift ride non stop the other day with 90min of sweetspot or threshold. Two bottles with 1/3 of the suggested "race concentration" added mix and one children's Cliff "Z-bar" of 130 cal and like 35g carb. Was "just" enough. Ride time was like 2:12. If they say two hours at "race pace" can start depleting glycogen, I was still within that.
Google tells me 4.2KJ/g of glycogen. Body has 400 to 700g stored shared between muscle and liver. Assuming higher level work not using as much fat...........if you're doing 1000KJ/hr you've got 2 hours. 4KJ/g * 500g = 2000KJ. 1000KJ is 277w for an hour, I think. So on that hard Zwift ride, after 2:15 with 2:00 at an AP of 230w.....I'd have been pushing it given my body size if I didn't eat anything.
Some of the advice around workout fueling isn't to "get you through" so much as a combo of "placebo" and "recovery". If you don't eat during long or tough workouts, you might have a bad habit of "over snacking" later. Either post workout or later in the day. With a net weight gain penalty. The placebo is if you eat/drink even a tiny bit of carb that you can taste, your mind tells the body to free up stores. So I've seen somewhere.
I've had a BAD habit of thinking I'm dieting on the bike. Poor choice. You just eat more later. I wind up eating less with nutrition on the bike and a snack after. Then I eat a normal sedentary person sized meal instead of a "I just got released from the Gulag" sized meal.
I think the issue with this topic is that for the fat burn "all day" power versus glycogen, almost all amateur riders ride in Z2 a long way above where they'd actually be burning mostly fat. Meaning, we'd have to slow way way way down. We're not pros. Pros can burn fat at extraordinary power levels. I can't. I'm guessing if next month of training goes well I'll sniff 320w for 20min. Still, for me to be into fat land I'd probably have to sit at like 120w. Which is balls slow.
That to say, we do burn mostly glycogen on most rides. But, not at a rate pros or somebody like Rubik in here would.
You can do the math based on what kind of ride you plan to do and what your zones are on what your glycogen and carb needs are.
Numbers are from a 5 second Google search, but:
-400-700g stored at the start
-4KJ/g glycogen energy output
-277w is about 1000KJ/hr........do the math from there as a ratio of what power you plan to ride at and how long
-if you need to, fuel accordingly
-assume you're mostly going to be burning glycogen, not fat.......since you're on BF and likely not a professional
2. You really need to do trial and error to see how you feel and what works for you.
3. I've not done it, but some people swear by the sweat analysis for your hydration needs at least. To get the sodium and other mineral content right or some kind of snakeoil.
4. Most of us don't need much as we simply don't burn much. Sometimes if you "feel" you need it is simply because you don't have the training capacity to handle the effort you're trying to do for that long (even if heartrate isn't going up to infinity). Not a matter of not enough "nutrition". I can do about 90min max of sweetspot in a workout. Lower end sweetspot. If I up the power to the upper end of sweetspot, that's an hour. Has nothing to do with me needing to eat more to do it. Need to train more!
I did a 2hr Zwift ride non stop the other day with 90min of sweetspot or threshold. Two bottles with 1/3 of the suggested "race concentration" added mix and one children's Cliff "Z-bar" of 130 cal and like 35g carb. Was "just" enough. Ride time was like 2:12. If they say two hours at "race pace" can start depleting glycogen, I was still within that.
Google tells me 4.2KJ/g of glycogen. Body has 400 to 700g stored shared between muscle and liver. Assuming higher level work not using as much fat...........if you're doing 1000KJ/hr you've got 2 hours. 4KJ/g * 500g = 2000KJ. 1000KJ is 277w for an hour, I think. So on that hard Zwift ride, after 2:15 with 2:00 at an AP of 230w.....I'd have been pushing it given my body size if I didn't eat anything.
Some of the advice around workout fueling isn't to "get you through" so much as a combo of "placebo" and "recovery". If you don't eat during long or tough workouts, you might have a bad habit of "over snacking" later. Either post workout or later in the day. With a net weight gain penalty. The placebo is if you eat/drink even a tiny bit of carb that you can taste, your mind tells the body to free up stores. So I've seen somewhere.
I've had a BAD habit of thinking I'm dieting on the bike. Poor choice. You just eat more later. I wind up eating less with nutrition on the bike and a snack after. Then I eat a normal sedentary person sized meal instead of a "I just got released from the Gulag" sized meal.
I think the issue with this topic is that for the fat burn "all day" power versus glycogen, almost all amateur riders ride in Z2 a long way above where they'd actually be burning mostly fat. Meaning, we'd have to slow way way way down. We're not pros. Pros can burn fat at extraordinary power levels. I can't. I'm guessing if next month of training goes well I'll sniff 320w for 20min. Still, for me to be into fat land I'd probably have to sit at like 120w. Which is balls slow.
That to say, we do burn mostly glycogen on most rides. But, not at a rate pros or somebody like Rubik in here would.
You can do the math based on what kind of ride you plan to do and what your zones are on what your glycogen and carb needs are.
Numbers are from a 5 second Google search, but:
-400-700g stored at the start
-4KJ/g glycogen energy output
-277w is about 1000KJ/hr........do the math from there as a ratio of what power you plan to ride at and how long
-if you need to, fuel accordingly
-assume you're mostly going to be burning glycogen, not fat.......since you're on BF and likely not a professional
#83
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I would like your opinion on that carb loading business. Do elites really consume carbs on the order of 10g/kilo/day when tapering for a Classic or a National? I can see it in the context of a Grand Tour, when it might even be double that if one counts everything. 'Cause maybe that's been something I've been doing wrong - not carbing up enough before one of the few big rides a year I do. Maybe I worry too much about weight.
"An elite rider can burn through anything up to 1,600kcal in a really hard hour... In a hard six-hour stage, when a rider's total calorie burn might be 7l000 kcal, no mater how diligently you eat you're still always in danger of it all going wrong."
"Nigel Mitchell described how they do it at Sky: Everything we give them has 25g of carbohydrate in it... All we ask the riders to do is make sure they have three, or maybe four things an hour, as well as a bottle of water."
"Carbo-loading is common among marathon runners and long-distance triathletes, but it's very rare in pro bike riding. It's not something you can do regularly and the long days on the bike are routine for the pros. It makes weight management difficult. And, most importantly, for some reason it doesn't really seem to work very well for a typical road race with its constant variations of pace."
And finally, a funny comparison.
"But remember what I said about carbohydrate storage: three grams of water per gram of carb. Loading will hike your carb fuel tank from 400g to perhaps more than 800g, plus all that water. You end up reporting to the starter feeling like a slightly nauseous waterbed."
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#84
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I'm reading the book "Faster" by Michael Hutchinson and it has a chapter on nutrition.
"An elite rider can burn through anything up to 1,600kcal in a really hard hour... In a hard six-hour stage, when a rider's total calorie burn might be 7l000 kcal, no mater how diligently you eat you're still always in danger of it all going wrong."
"Nigel Mitchell described how they do it at Sky: Everything we give them has 25g of carbohydrate in it... All we ask the riders to do is make sure they have three, or maybe four things an hour, as well as a bottle of water."
"Carbo-loading is common among marathon runners and long-distance triathletes, but it's very rare in pro bike riding. It's not something you can do regularly and the long days on the bike are routine for the pros. It makes weight management difficult. And, most importantly, for some reason it doesn't really seem to work very well for a typical road race with its constant variations of pace."
And finally, a funny comparison.
"But remember what I said about carbohydrate storage: three grams of water per gram of carb. Loading will hike your carb fuel tank from 400g to perhaps more than 800g, plus all that water. You end up reporting to the starter feeling like a slightly nauseous waterbed."
"An elite rider can burn through anything up to 1,600kcal in a really hard hour... In a hard six-hour stage, when a rider's total calorie burn might be 7l000 kcal, no mater how diligently you eat you're still always in danger of it all going wrong."
"Nigel Mitchell described how they do it at Sky: Everything we give them has 25g of carbohydrate in it... All we ask the riders to do is make sure they have three, or maybe four things an hour, as well as a bottle of water."
"Carbo-loading is common among marathon runners and long-distance triathletes, but it's very rare in pro bike riding. It's not something you can do regularly and the long days on the bike are routine for the pros. It makes weight management difficult. And, most importantly, for some reason it doesn't really seem to work very well for a typical road race with its constant variations of pace."
And finally, a funny comparison.
"But remember what I said about carbohydrate storage: three grams of water per gram of carb. Loading will hike your carb fuel tank from 400g to perhaps more than 800g, plus all that water. You end up reporting to the starter feeling like a slightly nauseous waterbed."
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#85
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4. Most of us don't need much as we simply don't burn much. Sometimes if you "feel" you need it is simply because you don't have the training capacity to handle the effort you're trying to do for that long (even if heartrate isn't going up to infinity). Not a matter of not enough "nutrition". I can do about 90min max of sweetspot in a workout. Lower end sweetspot. If I up the power to the upper end of sweetspot, that's an hour. Has nothing to do with me needing to eat more to do it. Need to train more!
I did a 2hr Zwift ride non stop the other day with 90min of sweetspot or threshold. Two bottles with 1/3 of the suggested "race concentration" added mix and one children's Cliff "Z-bar" of 130 cal and like 35g carb. Was "just" enough. Ride time was like 2:12. If they say two hours at "race pace" can start depleting glycogen, I was still within that.
Google tells me 4.2KJ/g of glycogen. Body has 400 to 700g stored shared between muscle and liver. Assuming higher level work not using as much fat...........if you're doing 1000KJ/hr you've got 2 hours. 4KJ/g * 500g = 2000KJ. 1000KJ is 277w for an hour, I think. So on that hard Zwift ride, after 2:15 with 2:00 at an AP of 230w.....I'd have been pushing it given my body size if I didn't eat anything.
Some of the advice around workout fueling isn't to "get you through" so much as a combo of "placebo" and "recovery". If you don't eat during long or tough workouts, you might have a bad habit of "over snacking" later. Either post workout or later in the day. With a net weight gain penalty. The placebo is if you eat/drink even a tiny bit of carb that you can taste, your mind tells the body to free up stores. So I've seen somewhere.
I did a 2hr Zwift ride non stop the other day with 90min of sweetspot or threshold. Two bottles with 1/3 of the suggested "race concentration" added mix and one children's Cliff "Z-bar" of 130 cal and like 35g carb. Was "just" enough. Ride time was like 2:12. If they say two hours at "race pace" can start depleting glycogen, I was still within that.
Google tells me 4.2KJ/g of glycogen. Body has 400 to 700g stored shared between muscle and liver. Assuming higher level work not using as much fat...........if you're doing 1000KJ/hr you've got 2 hours. 4KJ/g * 500g = 2000KJ. 1000KJ is 277w for an hour, I think. So on that hard Zwift ride, after 2:15 with 2:00 at an AP of 230w.....I'd have been pushing it given my body size if I didn't eat anything.
Some of the advice around workout fueling isn't to "get you through" so much as a combo of "placebo" and "recovery". If you don't eat during long or tough workouts, you might have a bad habit of "over snacking" later. Either post workout or later in the day. With a net weight gain penalty. The placebo is if you eat/drink even a tiny bit of carb that you can taste, your mind tells the body to free up stores. So I've seen somewhere.
So if you intend to go at low Z2 intensities, it is possible to just rely on stored glycogen for an hour or two, but to go at close to your maximum for longer than an hour you need to start fueling.
Then there is another aspect where fueling helps even for 1 hour rides of intensity sweet spot and above (>90% FTP), it brings the RPE way down. I can perfectly do a hard Sweet Spot ride for one hour without eating, but it is hard. When I started doing these efforts with carbs on the bike it just felt amazingly easy.
For intense workouts of Sweet Spot and above I go for about 90g per hour of sugar in water, with a pinch of salt and some citric acid for taste. And I start drinking from the start.
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#86
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I have been researching and experimenting lately with fueling during work out. Regarding your calculations on how much glycogen you have stored and how much you are burning, the glycogen supply in our body does not work like a fuel tank in a car where you can go at full speed until it is empty. Rather as your storage gets depleted, it will start to limit you max output a long time before it runs out.
So if you intend to go at low Z2 intensities, it is possible to just rely on stored glycogen for an hour or two, but to go at close to your maximum for longer than an hour you need to start fueling.
Then there is another aspect where fueling helps even for 1 hour rides of intensity sweet spot and above (>90% FTP), it brings the RPE way down. I can perfectly do a hard Sweet Spot ride for one hour without eating, but it is hard. When I started doing these efforts with carbs on the bike it just felt amazingly easy.
For intense workouts of Sweet Spot and above I go for about 90g per hour of sugar in water, with a pinch of salt and some citric acid for taste. And I start drinking from the start.
So if you intend to go at low Z2 intensities, it is possible to just rely on stored glycogen for an hour or two, but to go at close to your maximum for longer than an hour you need to start fueling.
Then there is another aspect where fueling helps even for 1 hour rides of intensity sweet spot and above (>90% FTP), it brings the RPE way down. I can perfectly do a hard Sweet Spot ride for one hour without eating, but it is hard. When I started doing these efforts with carbs on the bike it just felt amazingly easy.
For intense workouts of Sweet Spot and above I go for about 90g per hour of sugar in water, with a pinch of salt and some citric acid for taste. And I start drinking from the start.
For long SS rides, 60g/hour is the usual "during" dose and then make up the rest by looking at kj after. That's a lot to digest during though, have to see what you can get by with. Many riders can get by with just taking a swallow of liquid carbs from time to time for quite a while. Fools your body.
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#87
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I was doing a long series of Z2 rides, riding every day for 1-2 hours. I noticed that I kept losing weight, but at a greater rate than could be explained by fat burning. Sure enough, I got weak and had to take it easy for a few days. Glycogen depletion, just like you're saying. No bonk but weak. After that, I started looking at my kj for similar rides I'd done. I took half of that number, subtracted the calories I thought I might take in during the ride, and then prepared a carb/protein bottle for the frig with that many carb calories in it. Boom, strong every day, no more weird weight loss. That's a rough approximation of course, but it works and it looks like I could vary the calories by small amounts to change weight over time, 1 or 2 tenths of a lb./day.
For long SS rides, 60g/hour is the usual "during" dose and then make up the rest by looking at kj after. That's a lot to digest during though, have to see what you can get by with. Many riders can get by with just taking a swallow of liquid carbs from time to time for quite a while. Fools your body.
For long SS rides, 60g/hour is the usual "during" dose and then make up the rest by looking at kj after. That's a lot to digest during though, have to see what you can get by with. Many riders can get by with just taking a swallow of liquid carbs from time to time for quite a while. Fools your body.
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I was doing a long series of Z2 rides, riding every day for 1-2 hours. I noticed that I kept losing weight, but at a greater rate than could be explained by fat burning. Sure enough, I got weak and had to take it easy for a few days. Glycogen depletion, just like you're saying. No bonk but weak. After that, I started looking at my kj for similar rides I'd done. I took half of that number, subtracted the calories I thought I might take in during the ride, and then prepared a carb/protein bottle for the frig with that many carb calories in it. Boom, strong every day, no more weird weight loss. That's a rough approximation of course, but it works and it looks like I could vary the calories by small amounts to change weight over time, 1 or 2 tenths of a lb./day.
For long SS rides, 60g/hour is the usual "during" dose and then make up the rest by looking at kj after. That's a lot to digest during though, have to see what you can get by with. Many riders can get by with just taking a swallow of liquid carbs from time to time for quite a while. Fools your body.
For long SS rides, 60g/hour is the usual "during" dose and then make up the rest by looking at kj after. That's a lot to digest during though, have to see what you can get by with. Many riders can get by with just taking a swallow of liquid carbs from time to time for quite a while. Fools your body.
I have not had that experience. Carbs [simple or complex] may reward me with a "for the moment" burst of energy, but it comes at a cost of a longer recovery. White meat or fresh water fish [percidae] combined with some citrus foods have been my go to for an overnight recovery & I've tried many isolated (to a point I deem acceptable) dishes. Tests have shown nothing out of whack.
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#89
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interesting read.
I have not had that experience. Carbs [simple or complex] may reward me with a "for the moment" burst of energy, but it comes at a cost of a longer recovery. White meat or fresh water fish [percidae] combined with some citrus foods have been my go to for an overnight recovery & I've tried many isolated (to a point I deem acceptable) dishes. Tests have shown nothing out of whack.
I have not had that experience. Carbs [simple or complex] may reward me with a "for the moment" burst of energy, but it comes at a cost of a longer recovery. White meat or fresh water fish [percidae] combined with some citrus foods have been my go to for an overnight recovery & I've tried many isolated (to a point I deem acceptable) dishes. Tests have shown nothing out of whack.
That said, for sure when one rides harder and longer than one is used to, recovery does take longer. During a ride, the secret to staying carbed up and having no lows is to have just a little, say between 20 and 50 calories every 15', steady, all ride long. One can ride strong for 24 hours doing that, if one's in shape for that of course. Well, actually for 9 days straight during RAAM. That's how they do it, just larger quantities, same theory.
And that said, fish is a really good thing to eat for protein after a ride. We have two things to fix after a hard ride: muscle damage (protein), and fuel burned (carbs). After an easy ride, maybe none of these.
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