LeSexyFishorse

Hi Guys,

Need help identifying what this Nishiki Frame is. As far as I can tell it says made by Kawamura in one of the lower tubes. Anyone seen this kind of frame before? Would you know its specifications? What would it be worth? If I were to build it up what considerations should I have?

juvela

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the recessed brake mount and round-oval-round chainstays when combined with other features are suggestive of an early 1980's machine


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Mad Honk 

Mid 80's Logo, so close to that date. Feature seem to be of that period as well, and it appears to be club style race bike. Size would help in giving it a value. Smiles, MH

LeSexyFishorse

Its in my size, I guessed it might be 80s but it doesnt seem to have the nubs for downtube shifters? What is a clubs style race bike? Do those ride well?

Eric F 

The shape of the head tube lugs matches some of Nishiki's higher-end Kawamura-built frames from the late-70s and early-80s. If it is, it will be a very nice ride, indeed. The raw fork crown looks like a one-off customization by the owner, possibly part of a repaint. I'd be curious to see what the serial number on the bottom bracket tells us.

juvela

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the brand offered a top line pro frame around this time which was designated by three letters

cannot quite recall them but the Nishiki experts are sure to know

want to say it was something such as "OCV"

fork note: TANGE offered off-the-shelf forks identical to this at this time, wonder if fork ends are a match for the dropouts, conceivable that fork could be a replacement painted to match cycle, do not wish to assert that this is the case, mention it only as a possibility...if fork ends are marked TANGE and dropouts are marked SUNTOUR that would be a clue...

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bikemig 

Hard to tell with that dark paint but it looks to have a braze on of some sort on the downtube, right? A close up would help.

LeSexyFishorse

No closeups in the pics unfortunately though I did ask. To me it does not look like it has any braze on for downtube shifters.


This one looks more like paint damage to me.

Could be a Nishiki pro. I initially thought it might have been a Nishiki Cresta but then figured its not likely since the Cresta has attachments for touring stuff in the dropouts.


So if I do decide to get this bike, what kind of considerations do you think I will have to deal with?
Is there a workaround to using downtube shifters on a frame without braze ons?
Or can I buy a more modern 105 and use brifters instead?
The top tube cable guides seem to be rusted out, is this indicative of a larger frame rust problem or should the frame still be good?

If I do get this frame I will also need to get BB, crank, rear cassette, pedals, front and rear derailleurs, brakes, cables, wheelsets, saddle and handlebars. Did I miss anything? This will be my first time building a bike from parts .

Lastly, what kind of bottom bracket should I be looking for? I read somewhere that there is quite the variation.

Eric F 

There are clamp-on shifter bosses. These would would work for either downtube shifters, or to mount cable stops for brifters.


The bottom bracket is English thread.
You forgot a seatpost (it will probably be either 27.0 or 26.8), brake levers and shifters (or brifters), and handlebar tape. I can't really tell from the pics you posted, but you might also need a clamp-on cable guide at the bottom bracket.

This is my '77 Nishiki ONP, built with parts from the era (mostly SunTour Superbe)


This is the thread from my project last year that documents my progress through the build...https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...d-project.html

Eric F 

The model you're thinking of is the "ONP". Although this frame has some similar features (lug and for crown shapes), I haven't seen an ONP with TT cable guides. The early-80's Professional/Ultimate had very similar details, too. It is certainly possible that the cable guides could have been added at a later date. I'm thinking strongly that this frame was repainted at some point in its life, too.

If the BB shell is stamped "NP", you have a legit ONP model. I have seen the ONP with Nishiki and SunTour dropouts. The Professional/Ultimate examples I've seen have all had Campagnolo dropouts. All of these frames were built with Tange Champion tubesets.

LeSexyFishorse

I think given there are no top tube cable guides this rules out a Nishiki Pro since I cant seem find one with cable guides either. I have however found that this might be a Nishiki Olympic? Which is supposed to be made out of Tange Infinity or Tange Champion? Know anything about it?

Dropouts dont have rando dimples. Seem to be similar style too.

Tange Champion? 1987 catalog says Tange Infinity

Top tube cable guides

Lug style matches

What do you think? Likely an Olympic? This is the closest I can get referencing photos from what I have researched. Only thing I cant match are the decals.

So this poses a new question. The seller has indicated the rear dropouts are 126mm. I read that this means I have to buy a 6 speed groupset since the newer ones wont fit. I am looking at a old Shimano 105 with Biopace chainring. Does old shimano 105 offer the clamp type downtube shifter you showed earlier? If not, would it be that bad for the bike to manhandle a 2005 Shimano 105 to fit? Some posts say 126 to 130mm is not that difficult to force fit.

Are the BB sizes the same? Is it worth upgrading BB's to something newer vs the vintage 6 speed sets or is there no performance difference?

Damn I really wanted to get a look like your ONP but when I looked up suntour parts they are quite expensive here (Suntour downtube shifter alone is 40 USD vs old 105 complete set for 15). I will probably upgrade to more vintage down the line since they are prettier to me than the newer groupsets.

Phil_gretz

So, you'll have to decide how to re-create top tube cable guides. Simplest would be to grind down and sand the originals, rust condition and paint to match. Then buy a set of clamp-on cable guides from AliExpress for $8. Measure tube diameter before ordering, of course.

Bottom bracket bearing will depend on your chosen crankset, too. What are you considering paying for this frame/headset/fork/seatpost bolt combination? What do you envision as the budget for the final build? Do a spreadsheet and calculate in advance to decide what this frame is worth to you. DO NOT buy before counting the costs.

Eric F 

The Olympic is a possible candidate. Be aware that Nishiki also had the same frame with different model names depending on which area it was being sold - US/Canada/Europe/Asia. The more I look at the pics you have posted, the more I'm convinced it's one of Nishiki's better frames from the early-'80s, and it's been repainted. As such, I would also bet those aren't the original decals, which would make your attempts at decal-matching to determine the model an impossible task.

Many years ago (long before I did my recent rehab project), I cobbled my frame together with parts I had on hand to make it a single-speed. I used a square-taper Shimano sealed BB (68x115), and a 130mm spaced rear hub. The BB worked just fine (same one I was using on my 9-speed road bikes at the time). The rear wheel was a bit of a squeeze, but it worked.

As Phil mentioned, you can get clamp-on shifter bosses (not the complete shifter set like mine) for pretty cheap.

A lot of what you do with this is going to depend on your budget. I spent north of $1k on parts for my vintage-era build, but I was working within some specific constraints. My frame got new decals (not quite vintage correct), but it did not get repainted.

Another - VERY IMPORTANT - thing Phil mentioned was calculating your estimated cost before you start your project. Write down a list of EVERY SINGLE part you'll need, and start researching what you intend to use, and how much it's going to cost.

LeSexyFishorse

Good Idea on the costing, I will build a spreadsheet and see. Sometimes you think one item is cheap and then you end up buying a little too many "cheap" things. Will be trying to look for those clamps you mentioned as well. Great advice guys. Thanks very much!

ramzilla

So this poses a new question. The seller has indicated the rear dropouts are 126mm. I read that this means I have to buy a 6 speed groupset since the newer ones wont fit. I am looking at a old Shimano 105 with Biopace chainring. Does old shimano 105 offer the clamp type downtube shifter you showed earlier? If not, would it be that bad for the bike to manhandle a 2005 Shimano 105 to fit? Some posts say 126 to 130mm is not that difficult to force fit.

I've managed to successfully fit 7 speed freewheels on several 126mm frames. The chain line can get pretty close to the dropouts but, usually clears by a few millimeters. The great thing about 7 speed drivetrains is they're really inexpensive & you can get a brand new set of microshift 2x7 STI levers for around $75. Add a nice Sora level RD & you have a modern drivetrain on a vintage steel frame bike.

Phil_gretz

7-speed is 126mm spacing. 105 came with 7-speed indexed downtube shifting. Isn't that your answer?

T-Mar

The actual model name is circumspect given that Nishiki were spec'd differently for each market and the OP is located in the Philippines. However, it does appear to be a high end model given the tangs on the inside of the fork blades. Other frame features suggest origins in the ONP, whose frame was eventually employed on other USA Nishiki models such as the Professional, Ultimate and Superbe. My overall impression is very late 1970s to very early 1980s. It is likely Tange Champion #1. As noted, the serial number will at least allow us to narrow down the original market and year.

As an example of market variance with Nishiki, attached is the catalogue entry for a Canadian market, Nishiki Superbe. It has top tube cable tunnels braze-ons, unlike similar USA market models of the era. Frame features, including braze-on allocation, are a close match for the OP's prospective purchase.

ramzilla

Here's a 5 speed 126mm spaced Centurion that I converted to a 7 speed recently. I put an inexpensive set of Shimano trigger shifters on it. Upright handlebars. (Of course). What an absolute joy to ride. It sold on Craigslist for full price after being advertised for just four days.

zukahn1 

Likely intended to have Suntour bar ends originally so it would only have cable guide clamp. Very nice fame set I would agree on the mid 80's dating. I believe this style fork was only on top end models 83-84.

Oldsteeler

hey LeSexyFishorse
This frame was available from the mid 70's to the early 80's as the top model of the Nishiki racing bikes.
In Europe, the frame was offered as Olympic (until 1980) and Olympic Royal (from 81 to 84).
In US and Canada the same frame was sold in the 70's named as Superbe.
Both imports were made in Kobe/Japan by the Kawamura factory.
Tange 1 tubes were used for the frames and forks of both models.
There were frames without (until 1979) and with (from 1980) brake cable eyelets on the top tube.
Kawamura in Kobe offered different paints/finishes depending on the importer.
In Europe alone there were four to five different finishes.
Depending on the importer, different components were also assembled

see my Nishiki Olympic
https://www.bikeforums.net/22510715-post2536.html

LeSexyFishorse

Awww man I'm heartbroken that I passed on it. Was it a race bike? Did Nishiki do hand built stuff? I have seen some framesets with Suntour stickers on them and no brand. Are these the Superbe one's you are referring to?

repechage

onp

silly spell check, the three letters were all caps on the model designation

Oldsteeler

LeSexyFishorse
Nishiki frames from the 70s unlabeled without brand decals? Not seen before.
The Superbe sold in US can be identified by the name decal on the top tube or on Chainstay and the brand decal on the down tube.

see pictures