Senrab62 

Doug I appreciate your input. I was hoping someone with knowledge and experience would chime in.

I can confirm that the steerer has Reynolds and 531, faint, but there and legible. I will try to post a pic of the engravings.

Measurement from center of axle to center of rear brake hole is approx 36.5 CM. Would any other measurements be helpful?

Thanks in advance!

Doug Fattic 

36.5 - 31.1 (the rim radius as measured to the center of braking surface where the brake block hits) = 54.5. That puts it in the range of using 47 to 57mm brakes (the original Campy side pull reach clearance). In other words the clearance needed for 700C X 28 or 32 width commonly used when that frame was built.

2 other measurements can be helpful. #1 is the chain stay length as measured from where the wheel sat in front of the screw adjustor to the center of the bottom bracket. Touring bikes tend to be around 18" and sport touring (a likely option) is in the middle 17 inches.

#2 measurement would be the crease of the indent on the inside of the chain stay. I can compare that length to a Columbus SP chain stay indent. Back in the 70's they were often supplied with those clearance creases. Reynolds were usually round oval round without any creases. A Reynolds just round tapered chain stay (that could be indented) were not commonly available from suppliers for builders in the US. The Japanese tubing came in the 80's to the US.

Senrab62 

Chainstay length, from where adjustors are currently to center of BB is approx 43.2 CM.

Indents on chainstays are approx. 7cm in length.

I checked seatpost size again, and 26.8 is snug.

Thanks again

Doug Fattic 

The indent on a Columbus SP or SL chain stay made in the 70's is approximately 7 cm long. Both the length and shape confirms my suspicion the tubing used in your frame is Columbus SP - which is 1.0/.7/1.0 mm main tubing wall thickness. The fact that your frame fits a 26.8 mm seat post now doesn't mean that it isn't an SP 1.0/.7 seat tube that should fit a 27.0 post. The way it was made or perhaps someone tried to tighten a smaller seat post and that reduced its size. I was able to buy sets of Columbus SP tubing for my framebuilding class students in the 70's for $25 a set.

Your chain stay length suggests it was made as a sport touring frame. That and the brake bridge clearance designed for 47 to 57 mm brakes makes it a more desirable frame for today's market where cyclists now prefer a wider 700c X 32 tire over skinny ones. The investment cast lugs (but not the BB shell or fork crown) means this was an upper end frame and not a middle of the road one. Too bad they cut off the dropout eyelets although they can be brazed back on if the frame ever get refinished again.

MauriceMoss

I'm gonna go out on a limb and call this one a Chris Pauley built frame (likely originally labeled Tierra).

@Senrab62, did this frame come from the west coast, possibly southern California? Chris Pauley, who was based in Santa Barbara, built frames from some point in the 70s to about mid-80s when he left the business to pursue woodworking (from what I've read).

I'm making the same assumption about the meaning of the serial number, except for the letters at the end, which might be a code for "Tierra" (just guessing).

I agree with Doug Fattic excellent assessment. Hard to tell from the thick powder coat but the rear dropouts look like Shimano SF. Wouldn't be surprised if the front ones were Shimano as well. I ran across a comment online from a person who had Pauley build him a frame who said that Chris would normally mix and match tubing and not stick strictly with Reynolds or Columbus.

I don't know the total number of frames made (weather labeled Tierra or Pauley) but it was not very high, so there aren't that many examples online. However, all the ones I've seen looked very nice. Here are some pics:

Serial numbers




Brake bridges





Dropouts/stay end treatment





Fork crowns




Seat clusters






Top tube cable guides
Someone (who sold Pauley's bikes bitd) said that these top tube cable guides were custom made by Chris. Whether that's true or if these were available from suppliers, I don't know - @Doug Fattic would probably know.






Full frames






The head badge would have looked like this:




Here are some threads on BF dealing with Chris Pauley bikes:

Some of the pics I included in this post came from this thread. Perhaps @kc0yef, if still around, could give us his take on the mystery frame.

A couple of different bikes in this thread.

This one was built by a "Chris in Santa Barbara" but the number (103.56.79 xx) looks like a Pauley

This one is a really cool fillet brazed frame.

And one from Bulgier.net

Doug Fattic 

My congratulations to Maurice for figuring this one out. There are too many similarities for it to be anyone else unless Chris had a fellow worker in his shop. Most builders have signature ways of attaching stays to dropouts and especially how seat stays are attached to the seat lug (or seat tube).

I didn't know Chris personally but I called him up one day in the late 70's and he provided some important new framebuilding information to me in that conversation. He was the first one to tell me that Hank Folson was having investment cast BB shells made under the brand name Henry James. The pictures that Maurice provided shows Henry James BB shells. I'm positive the seat lug on the yellow bike is a HJ and probably the head lugs too although they must either be a very early version or modified a bit by Chris. Eventually Hank put points on the back of the head lug sockets that his earliest versions didn't have.

Chris was also the 1st one to tell me about the GasFlux company in Ohio making a superior brass rod (it is actually bronze but American builders call it "brass"). Their designation is C-04. They also provide superior fluxes as well. Back then to get it I had to order a lot of brass and my 1st order lasted me 30 years. I just ordered some silver flux from them last week. All the fillet brazed frames we turn into bicycles for pastors in Ukraine uses their C-04 brazing rod prepped with their Type B flux. One of my trainees that went over there to make those frames for 3 months to refine his skills couldn't get a jar of it past TSA on his way over.

So Senrab you have a superior American built custom frame! This thread shows the danger of guessing its quality based on just a single or fews clues like seat post size. While a 26.8 seat post may be what fits it now, I'm going to assume Chris used either a Columbus SP seat tube or a 531 Reynolds 19/21 gauge seat tube. It makes no sense at all to put in a straight gauge one on that frame (like what might happen if he attached the seat stays lower on the seat tube for example).

The brake cable guides must have been custom made out of pieces of small diameter tubing. I don't ever remember a style like that I could buy from suppliers. Nicely done!

unworthy1

Looks like the redoubtable Maurice Moss has nailed another one! YAY!!

So on the one hand I'm as pleased as ever to see this, but on another hand I have some individual feelings of displeasure because I thought I might have (finally) found a name (Chris Pauley) which MIGHT be applied to one California Mystery frame I bought, years back, from a seller (nearby to SB on the coast) who said it was very probably made in Santa Barbara.

But now seeing more pix of genuine Chris Pauley frames I have returned to utter bafflement, again.
I won't hi-jack this thread any further but I REALLY would love to "commission" Mr. Moss to (pul-ease) apply his world-class sleuthing skills to this hard nut of my own.

It has no serial number, only the Columbus Dove stamp on the head tube that is "world's most subtle head badge".
One teaser pic and then I will start another thread.
EDIT: Done that now and here it is, please take a look one and all: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ougfattic.html

The pinch bolt was "blind" but also had a totally unique cylinder that filled the space between seatstays but for a tiny gap that pinched closed when the bolt was fully tightened. That detail gone, now.

Senrab62 

Doug,

Appreciate the time, wisdom, and willingness to share this freely on the forum. You are a gentleman and a scholar. Definitely plan to try to do a much better refinish on this. Looks like I did alright with this purchase!

Senrab62 

HUGE thank you!!! This is the second time I've been able to get confirmation on a vintage bicycle frame purchase with help from the forums. This place is special and wonderful!

Your detective skills rival that of Holmes or Batman! Truly uncanny and fantastic eye and retention!

Appreciate you giving me something to work with and some ideas on the rebuild and trying to do this properly and show some respect.

Thanks again!

Senrab62 

I suspect that at one time there was a center cable guide. Do I or not have a builder use something else?

Senrab62 

No hijacking at all. I visited your thread, and it's hard to research frames with nothing to go on but some pictures. Fortunately, there is a wealth of knowledge and people willing to share it. I am grateful and wish you luck also! I'll be keeping an eye on your search as well.

Thanks for your help also!

Doug Fattic 

I think you are right. My guess is that the center brake cable boss got damaged and whoever did the "restoration" didn't know how or bother with replacing it.

You will have to consider whether restoring the frame is a possibility now that you know it is a top end American built custom made. I was impressed with the graphics on his decals when I 1st saw his advertisements in Bicycling magazine (or somewhere) when he was building frames.

Senrab62 

Why would it not be a possibility? New powder in a more fitting colorway and replacement decals wouldn't be worse than the current heavy handed powder job. Plus it would allow me to have the eyelets added back and a replacement cable guide added. Should I leave it as is?

Doug Fattic 

I was suggesting that the cost of reconditioning might not be within either your budget or interest. Your frame will ride fine as it is and if that fulfills all your requirements you might not care it has thick powder coating and uneven lug lining.

I don't know if his decals are still available anywhere. SSSink might have made them originally and can still supply them to professional painters. They can also be reproduced again. Those decals were designed to be used with Dupont Imron paint (that is polyurethane paint also made by other companies too). Both the cost and application of that kind of paint is expensive. Powdercoating is plastic sprayed on and heated to smooth it out. That heat would destroy original decals. It is possible to apply decals on powdercoating and then spray a urethane clear over them to protect them. Those kind of decals by themselves usually need a protective clear coat.

You have a very nice frame and you might want to ride it and see if you like the way it rides. If so making it beautiful again might be in your interests. If it doesn't work for you, it can be advertised as a top of the line American made custom frame that someone else might enjoy bringing back to its former glory.

My personal opinion is that I like for frames to look good as well as ride good. I am also a wet painter that can't stand thick powdercoating on well made lugged frames - especially thinly filed luged frames. It obscures the carefully done details. I recognize that the cheapness of powdercoating makes an attractive alternative. And if someone hasn't been educated to be able ro recognize the difference of that very fine work on Unworthy's orange frame, then the reason for the extra cost would be lost. Having spent years to figure out how to do wet paint really well (and teach others to do the same) doesn't make me a natural observer to a competitive method.

Senrab62 

I understand. Completely. Outside of my practical budget, but perhaps down the road. I would like to have the eyelets and cable guide repaired. Rob Boi is from the area, and although his shop is closed I have heard he is still at it. I will inquire.

Short term I plan to get it rolling and see how it feels. Everything will fall into place with some patience on my part. Thanks again Doug!

kc0yef 

I have only seen the one. lots of similarity but I would not say for sure...

francophile 

Not every builder used three, although I think you're probably already aware. Your frame is my size and looks like it could use 3, but, like, on this Behringer I have - another great American builder - he opted for 2. Sadly, I'm confident this frame is right on the threshold of too small for me (dammit!) but it's so well constructed, sharing some similar details but definitely not the same. (more pics)

Sonofamechanic 

Another Behringer inspired option—maybe mount the guides under the top tube—unless you want to mount a pump there. Clean look.
PS...that blue Behringer is splendid!!

francophile 

Your Behringer? I've been hoping to source decals for mine. When I came up empty on re-pops, I started trying unsuccessfully just to peg what font is used on the script.

Doug Fattic 

That looks like a script that used to be sold in dry transfer sheets by the Letraset company out of England. Just from the pictures it looks to be about 72 pt size. Does Letraset still make alphabet dry transfer sheets? I used to be able to buy them at art supply stores in the era before personal computers. Lots of my framebuilding class students in the 70's and 80's used to use their lettering to put their name on the frame they made in class.

Sonofamechanic 

Yes! Dry transfer—I bought them from “SSS Ink”. $40 gets you 4 complete sets (2 black 2 white) and each set includes 2xdowntube “Behringer” 1xheadtube “B”, 2x”Behringer Custom” (ive seen them mostly on chain stays) and 1x “Cece Behringer” signature.

Sonofamechanic 

I’ll be over at a friends today who has one in original paint—I’ll snap a pic to send the thread of the decals side by side to see if exact.

unworthy1

The script font used on the red-orange frame is one of dozens (maybe more) that fall into the broad category of "English script" (not to be confused with "Olde English" or "Black Letter" "Church Gothic", etc.) but are frequently modified (slightly) and re-named to avoid any still-active copyright. This one might be considered "bold and condensed", in the case where different "weights" are offered. One well-known font that is close (but not an exact match) is Snell Roundhand.

Sonofamechanic 

Cant speak to what font it is, but it is an exact copy of the font Behringer used plus a copy of his signature...in “Cecil Narrow 12 pt”

bikingshearer 

Always good advice. It must be good - brilliant, even - because I given similar advice (and followed it) myself.