Creakyknees

It seems like this plan rarely puts in efforts near or above FTP. Lots of endurance pace "intervals" - how is one supposed to get fitter without overloading the system?

Anybody have any experience with this plan? Or similar?

thanks

furiousferret

I glanced at it; you'd get a higher 'FTP' but not much else on the spectrum, great for TT's or Triathlons, not so much for racing.

I started using Trainerroad workouts a few weeks ago because I have zero discipline on a trainer. I'm sure the canned plans work great, the problem is scheduling and injuries, etc.

trainsktg

I just finished the last workout tonight. I've never done a structured program before (just gobs of hill repeats). I started at the 3rd week block though because I had pretty decent fitness. I had a 12% increase in FTP from when I started to my last FTP test at the end of the 9th week. I'll do a final test probably Saturday. But I wasn't doing just the Zwift program though, I have been getting a lot of outside riding too.

Keith

redlude97

sounds like a sweet spot program

TexMac

I have a teammate that uses this and he's gone from 250 ftp to 315 within 8 months. Patience

TexMac

Great point. High FTP but not great for racing as evidenced by a teammate that has gained high ftp but still average at racing

rubiksoval

High FTP is great for racing.

But so are racing skills.

And the higher the FTP, the more you can do with mediocre racing skills...

Improving FTP has been one of the biggest boons to my racing, even after years of already being a Cat 1. The difference even 20 watts can make is pretty significant, I've noticed.

trainsktg

I started the 4 week 'FTP Booster' after finishing the '12 Wk FTP Builder'. After four sessions so far...OUCH.

Keith

TexMac

That's awesome and esp the higher CAT, I think it's required . I've seen some CAT4 with 320w ftp at 160lbs and mediocre racing skills can't save them.

trainsktg

So if anyone is still curious, I finished both of Zwift's 'FTP Builder' and 'FTP Booster' programs and my FTP is up 65W. Surprising, because I entered the program with what I thought to be somewhat decent fitness because of the amount of climbing, long hill repeats and 200+ mile weeks I did throughout the spring and summer. I guess that says quite alot for following an actual training program vs. just winging it (duh, like every book I've ever read has told me to do ).

They have a couple of other multi-month programs that look worthwhile like the 'Winter Advanced' program, but I didn't want to back to the wandering aimlessly approach again so soon, so I decided to go down the TrainerRoad route instead for my next block.

Keith

furiousferret

That's pretty impressive. Is this your first year of structured training? Or has it peaked in the past?

trainsktg

Yes, first time at actual structured training. Definitely my highest numbers ever by far. I'm happy with the progress to date but definitely not satisfied with the overall numbers yet tho. Two more milestones to go.

Keith

Racer Ex 

Structure works. Just remember FTP is only one ingredient.

Radish_legs

I have been doing the Zwift 12 weeks FTP builder as well. I skipped the first 2 weeks. I just started week 9 (so that means I am 7 weeks in. I haven't done all the workouts, because of life. Also because of some outdoor rides. Last week was the first time I did all 5 of the workouts in one week. Prior to that there were some days that I did two of the workouts back to back, so they weren't terribly difficult.

Now they are starting to get more difficult. I have my FTP setting at 285w.

I'm still not sure how to fully use the workout plan. For example, last week I did the 5 workouts, Monday through Friday (I doubled up on one of the days). And then Saturday I did another 2.5 hours of random trainer stuff. Should I have done that? I don't know. But if I hadn't, my volume for the week would have only been about 5 hours.

This week it looks like the workouts are close to 1.5 hours each. So the volume and intensity are building.

Ygduf

ftp : racing ; flour : baking

TheKillerPenguin

Are you saying I can put a bag of flour in the oven and wind up with perfect cake?

hubcyclist

my very amateur impression of that ftp builder program is that it seems to lack in both volume and intensity, lots of tempo and weirdly short z2 intervals (like 5x7 or 6x6 @ 73% with rest in between, seems really unnecessary). maybe i've lost perspective of beginning training but if I've got under 60-90mins per day, I really don't want to do more than 1 day of just z2 and I definitely don't need rest periods for z2 in my workout. just seems like they have a lot of what I'd consider wasted time

Radish_legs

I'd be better off doing a trainerroad program, I'm sure. But I'm lazy and cheap.

Tonight's workout is 25min x 2 at 206w (FTP=285 w). The next one is 5min FTP 285w x 6. And like I said before, the volume is increasing.

There's a fair amount of time spent doing warm up and warm down. Which I probably wouldn't typically do (esp the warm down, like 10 min at 150w). But I do them for the "stars" and the points on Zwift.

When I was doing Xert structured workouts, those were fierce. Like seeing stars. But the problem was that I didn't have a plan. I was just choosing workouts based on my own desire and instinct from day to day.

My natural strength is probably 30-60 second power. That is how I got 2nd place in my first crit. So the FTP/endurance is something that is (probably) important for me. Plus, for no particular good reason, I have a goal of achieving an FTP of 300w.

ancker

My take is these programs are for the novice that is going from zero training, to something. The something isn't structured training, or even training to race, just something. They probably see very large jumps in FTP because riding regularly at SS or so will do wonders for finishing an FTP test at anywhere near your 'max'.

As you get more experience, you need the overload to squeak out those few percent increases.

Related: I wonder if there's ever been a study or data that describes how quickly the average untrained cyclist progresses from 2W/kg -> 3W/kg -> 4W/kg and beyond. I expect 2->3 to be fairly quick (few months), 3->4 to take significantly longer (1-2 years), and 4+ to be 2 years+.

Ygduf

Don't eat that, Mary, it's raw.

rubiksoval

I expect 2->3 to be a low number, 3->4 to be even lower, and 4+ to be never for the very vast majority.

The average untrained cyclist probably rides around at 10 mph on a MUT for 30 minutes.

Same can be said for any sort of endurance type event, I'd imagine.

My dad has ridden 2-4k miles a year for over a decade and recently got a Tacx Flux and did an ftp test... like 175 watts, or about 2.3 w/kg. And he's one of the faster guys in his club group (must have decent enough genes if mine are as well! ).

jsk

No he's saying you can't bake a good cake without flour (no matter how hard the gluten-free zealots try).

Radish_legs

I think the counter argument is thus: there are times in the year where you need lower stress levels. So you don't do super hard efforts and intervals. Hence periodization. TrainerRoad advocates this. I think this is pretty standard. You want to peak at certain points, and you can't do the exact same training year round.

People are criticizing training geared towards FTP improvement, reminds of the quip I hear from lots of guys. "I need to work on my sprint." Because they are pissed that they are never challenging for the win in the sprints. Well, maybe it's because you don't have the physiology for it. You didn't win sprints on the playground when you were a kid, maybe you won't ever win them.

It's going to be very hard for me to ever have a FTP that is 4.0 w/kg. I have a friend who is a master's rider with this FTP. He was on the podium a lot last year. Went from a Cat 4 (dominant) to Cat 3 (won a lot). He has well more than the points required to be a Cat 2. You hit 4.0w/kg, you can make some noise. And not a whole of guys I know are as strong as him (i.e. the guys who do the local group rides; the super fast guys don't do those rides and hang out with schlubs like me).

TheKillerPenguin

If you're doing FTP boosting, there should probably be workouts with an RPE that makes you hate being alive. The Zwift protocols look as ancker said, geared towards new riders.

That said, if it keeps you riding consistently, it's far better for you than taking the winter off.

ancker

1) I never made an argument. The OP asked what people thought. I gave my opinion, pointing out that this particular plan probably did a very good job of boosting the FTP of cyclists who have otherwise never really trained before. No one is arguing that periodization is a bad thing. We all do it. But if a trained cyclist were taking on this training plan, they are likely not doing it to boost their FTP, more likely to add base. A trained cyclist likely needs more overload to 'boost' FTP, not lots of sub-threshold work.

2) I never criticized anything. Perhaps you're just meaning in general people do this. Which I do see on this forum. Personally, I never compete for sprints because I'm never there for them. I can out sprint nearly everyone I know with fresh legs, but they almost all murder me when the sprint is after 2 hours of riding. I almost never work on my sprint because of that fact. Moving from 1200W->1300W means nothing if I'm off the back with 5 miles to go. So I work on threshold. A lot.

3) My related question about W/kg progression is just a curiosity. I'm 4 years into my 3W/kg->4W/kg journey. I'm hoping I get there this year. I'm faster than guys with higher FTP and slow than guys with lower FTP.

Zwift is doing a lot to cater to the untrained cyclist. I commend them for it. Getting more people into cycling, whether it be to better themselves, zwift racing, or 'real' racing, I don't really care. Good for them, it's good for all of us in the long run.