How does one do become a "race mentor" for USAC race?
12-07-17, 09:17 PM
#26
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12-07-17, 09:19 PM
#27
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12-07-17, 09:21 PM
#28
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12-07-17, 10:06 PM
#29
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You're thinking about having a personal mentor or coach during the race. This is not that. This is someone to help everyone in the race out to make sure they're all safe and learn from their mistakes (even if they go off the back). It's a good idea so people don't get discouraged and quit (or are less likely to hurt themselves/others). The point you're missing is that it's not to help one person win, it's to help everyone in the race become better racers (or at least get them to act safely and keep coming back). You still don't get to have a personal coach racing right next to you.
12-07-17, 10:44 PM
#30
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Good. I'm glad we have clarified things.
My point on the scooter is, if all the person is going to do is observe, they don't need to be on a bike.
My point on the scooter is, if all the person is going to do is observe, they don't need to be on a bike.
12-08-17, 05:50 AM
#31
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What I envisioned was someone in the race accomplishing the same thing that a race director in a car following would do. Like having a radio. Sits in the back, maybe moves up the side from time to time to give instructions.
The example given above actually seems to include no in-race mentoring. So what's the point of having a mentor riding in the race? Not much.
The example given above actually seems to include no in-race mentoring. So what's the point of having a mentor riding in the race? Not much.
Until then this is simply something you've completely made up that has no basis or bearing in reality.
12-08-17, 05:54 AM
#32
out walking the earth
12-08-17, 07:08 AM
#33
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12-08-17, 07:11 AM
#34
out walking the earth
Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era, received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”
Like this cup, Nan-in said, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor’s cup full, and then kept on pouring. The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. “It is overfull. No more will go in!”
Like this cup, Nan-in said, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?
12-08-17, 07:23 AM
#35
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and the idea that experience = wisdom is not always the case.
Maybe one learns something from years and years of watching bike racing. Or maybe that means zilch.
Maybe one learns something from years and years of watching bike racing. Or maybe that means zilch.
12-08-17, 07:31 AM
#36
out walking the earth
it's like you're proving my point, or something
you could hire a coach. find someone local and create the sort of dynamic you're looking for.
you've also had a lot of knowledgeable bike racers post to you across multiple threads, including several 1s, but you never seem to display a willingness to listen. it's not a particularly unique dynamic in this online forum, but folks who fall into that pattern ultimately end up being ignored.
you could hire a coach. find someone local and create the sort of dynamic you're looking for.
you've also had a lot of knowledgeable bike racers post to you across multiple threads, including several 1s, but you never seem to display a willingness to listen. it's not a particularly unique dynamic in this online forum, but folks who fall into that pattern ultimately end up being ignored.
12-08-17, 07:36 AM
#37
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Thread Starter
what tactical advice have I ignored?
I recall many here pissed off that I raced for something like 8th place in the bunch finish when a breakaway of 6 guys up the road had already won, when I was a lap down due to a late start.
When I examined the rules and demonstrated that I had not broken any rules, this was dismissed by most. I can't say that I knew those rules before the race.
But that's not tactical advice.
I recall many here pissed off that I raced for something like 8th place in the bunch finish when a breakaway of 6 guys up the road had already won, when I was a lap down due to a late start.
When I examined the rules and demonstrated that I had not broken any rules, this was dismissed by most. I can't say that I knew those rules before the race.
But that's not tactical advice.
12-08-17, 07:41 AM
#39
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It's okay to say that you can't remember a danged thing that I have ignored, but you just don't like me. That's called honesty.
12-08-17, 07:44 AM
#40
out walking the earth
actually, it's called projection.
outside of trying to steer you towards clearer seeing and greater harmony with your surroundings here, I genuinely couldn't care less.
outside of trying to steer you towards clearer seeing and greater harmony with your surroundings here, I genuinely couldn't care less.
12-08-17, 07:52 AM
#41
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Thread Starter
I may not accept advice in a way that you like or appreciate. But I think it's safe to say that I am someone who studies these matters. Probably more than most at my level. And I'm going to chew on things, ask questions, debate, contest points, look for strengths and weaknesses.
I don't think most of my local peers (at my level) have studied all of Aki's race vids. I did not follow advice here to jump into racing immediately. I considered the matter for a long time and prepared. I knew something about the scene in my first race, like who the best racers are the 4/5 level were locally, even though I had never raced and didn't personally know those riders. And used that information to my advantage.
"This is a guy who doesn't listen to anyone and doesn't study these things." I don't think that applies to me. Not that I care or anyone else cares. Like I said, I couldn't even get a facebook kudo from my mom for winning a race. This stuff doesn't really matter much, even to the people in the middle of it.
I don't think most of my local peers (at my level) have studied all of Aki's race vids. I did not follow advice here to jump into racing immediately. I considered the matter for a long time and prepared. I knew something about the scene in my first race, like who the best racers are the 4/5 level were locally, even though I had never raced and didn't personally know those riders. And used that information to my advantage.
"This is a guy who doesn't listen to anyone and doesn't study these things." I don't think that applies to me. Not that I care or anyone else cares. Like I said, I couldn't even get a facebook kudo from my mom for winning a race. This stuff doesn't really matter much, even to the people in the middle of it.
12-08-17, 08:44 AM
#42
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RL - Gstein is pretty spot on. You ask questions. Get an answer. Then you immediately dispute that answer. If you want an example, look back through this thread. It implies an unwillingness to learn.
Perhaps you could try a different approach. Instead of contesting the answers provided, maybe try asking follow up questions to get to a different point or further clarity.
Perhaps you could try a different approach. Instead of contesting the answers provided, maybe try asking follow up questions to get to a different point or further clarity.
12-08-17, 08:51 AM
#43
Senior Member
not everything needs to be debated and have points contested. I have a coworker who does that and basically no one (including myself) will actively seek to work with him on anything. I get asked questions, I provide responses and then get a response trying to refute what I said because I'm not validating his preconceived notions.
I see that attitude here causing unwillingness to engage with you if people are trying to correct your understanding of things and you keep harping on misconceptions that folks here are trying to correct. if you find in your professional life that you get similar attitudes from colleagues, i would suggest looking at yourself to see what's causing it
I see that attitude here causing unwillingness to engage with you if people are trying to correct your understanding of things and you keep harping on misconceptions that folks here are trying to correct. if you find in your professional life that you get similar attitudes from colleagues, i would suggest looking at yourself to see what's causing it
12-08-17, 09:38 AM
#44
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Thread Starter
Yeah, it took a while for it to become clear that this race mentorship thing is merely "how to race safe" without any focus on real-time tactics.
12-08-17, 12:07 PM
#45
out walking the earth
This is a hell of an article on a friend of mine, who's a really good coach and all around nice guy. I've sent a bunch of people to do fits with him, as well as made recommendations to folks who could meet him in flesh and blood to go over tactics.
The sport is short on glamor
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/the-...ry-bike-racer/
The sport is short on glamor
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/the-...ry-bike-racer/
12-08-17, 05:39 PM
#46
Senior Member
Thread Starter
This is a hell of an article on a friend of mine, who's a really good coach and all around nice guy. I've sent a bunch of people to do fits with him, as well as made recommendations to folks who could meet him in flesh and blood to go over tactics.
The sport is short on glamor
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/the-...ry-bike-racer/
The sport is short on glamor
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/the-...ry-bike-racer/
12-08-17, 08:53 PM
#47
Cat 2
This is a hell of an article on a friend of mine, who's a really good coach and all around nice guy. I've sent a bunch of people to do fits with him, as well as made recommendations to folks who could meet him in flesh and blood to go over tactics.
The sport is short on glamor
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/the-...ry-bike-racer/
The sport is short on glamor
https://cyclingtips.com/2017/12/the-...ry-bike-racer/
I feel like I've heard his name thrown around even though I don't think I've ever met him or had any interaction with the east coast racing scene. Can't put a finger on it.
I think this article just about sums up what everyone here wants in this sport. It's not the glory or recognition but the lifestyle it brings. Thanks for sharing!
12-09-17, 11:23 PM
#48
Senior Member
I've been an unofficial mentor in races here and there, really there to help whoever. Cat 3 in a 3-4-5 race, and intent on NOT winning the race. I'm not strong enough to sit to the side and such so my mentoring was simply to set a good example. I'd hold good lines, I tried to write some blog posts on racing better (this was 2014, during the Tues Night Rent races), and ended up with three clips of the races.
Granted I was in my team's uniform, and in the clips it's obvious I was working for my teammates most of the time. However, I would try to encourage other riders, close gaps as gently as possible, do leadouts for other riders, etc. One big thing I wanted to impress on the newer riders is just how hard riders go toward the end of a race. I'm always amazed at how fast things get at the end of the races I do, it's quite shocking sometimes, even for me.
So things I'd do include:
- try to hold a good line through a turn. Mention to others some tips ("don't brake" or "brake less" is a common one). Many riders don't realize that simply being gentle through a turn is enough. I'd also try to corner "in formation" with some of the slightly more experienced riders (like a more solid 5 or a 4) so that they get used to cornering in parallel with someone nearby. Newer riders often don't know how to corner, meaning their reading/lessons don't match their real world experience, so it's important to get them to settle down, try to learn the real world stuff.
- get riders to read the wind. I'd tell some riders to sit to the sheltered side of the rider in front, trying to be loud so others would hear. I'd see those other riders duly sit a bit more to the left or right on the next lap. The Rent is ideal for this kind of work since there's almost never a direct headwind, it's almost always a significant crosswind on certain parts of the course. New riders (and experienced ones) will typically sit behind the next rider "to draft", but in a crosswind it's critical to sit in shelter, not on the wheel.
- get riders to close gaps immediately. Sometimes I'd give them a little helping push, but most of the time I'd either go and close the gap or tell them to close the last 5 feet or whatever. New riders tend to lose focus and let minor but fatal gaps go. I would try to get them to pay attention a bit more.
- when I knew a particular rider was following me I'd try to be especially smooth, pedal a bit through turns (to show them it's possible), etc. Typically these were riders that were looking to learn something by following me, and often they or their parents (or both) would ask me questions after the race. When a rider shows a desire to learn, even if just by following, I'll do my best to be a good/better bike racer.
- I'd try to do some kind of a leadout although my last minute choosing of who to lead out typically meant a really disorganized leadout. Sometimes I'd talk to one or two guys that I thought could use a good leadout to learn how to finish off a sprint, but typically things wouldn't work out, like they were in a break or they were toast or whatever. I'd try and adjust and tell someone else (usually another Junior) to get on my wheel. I'd even just announce "I'm leading out the sprint" and get to the front and try to set a good pace until the sprint would start. Newer riders tend to get over-excited at the bell and wither as the final moves go. It's better to have them wait just a bit more before unleashing their final efforts. My leadouts would also string out the field, a request from the head official, as a 4-5 wide last turn would be less predictable than a single file last corner. I'd do pretty hard leadouts for this reason, to try and reduce the clumping at the end of the race.
To be fair there were official mentors in later years, like this year and I think last year. They'd keep pace with some of the younger/weaker riders (often younger Juniors) and basically work a paceline with them. In the last couple years I've really backed out of the scene so I'm not one of the formal mentors like that.
Granted I was in my team's uniform, and in the clips it's obvious I was working for my teammates most of the time. However, I would try to encourage other riders, close gaps as gently as possible, do leadouts for other riders, etc. One big thing I wanted to impress on the newer riders is just how hard riders go toward the end of a race. I'm always amazed at how fast things get at the end of the races I do, it's quite shocking sometimes, even for me.
So things I'd do include:
- try to hold a good line through a turn. Mention to others some tips ("don't brake" or "brake less" is a common one). Many riders don't realize that simply being gentle through a turn is enough. I'd also try to corner "in formation" with some of the slightly more experienced riders (like a more solid 5 or a 4) so that they get used to cornering in parallel with someone nearby. Newer riders often don't know how to corner, meaning their reading/lessons don't match their real world experience, so it's important to get them to settle down, try to learn the real world stuff.
- get riders to read the wind. I'd tell some riders to sit to the sheltered side of the rider in front, trying to be loud so others would hear. I'd see those other riders duly sit a bit more to the left or right on the next lap. The Rent is ideal for this kind of work since there's almost never a direct headwind, it's almost always a significant crosswind on certain parts of the course. New riders (and experienced ones) will typically sit behind the next rider "to draft", but in a crosswind it's critical to sit in shelter, not on the wheel.
- get riders to close gaps immediately. Sometimes I'd give them a little helping push, but most of the time I'd either go and close the gap or tell them to close the last 5 feet or whatever. New riders tend to lose focus and let minor but fatal gaps go. I would try to get them to pay attention a bit more.
- when I knew a particular rider was following me I'd try to be especially smooth, pedal a bit through turns (to show them it's possible), etc. Typically these were riders that were looking to learn something by following me, and often they or their parents (or both) would ask me questions after the race. When a rider shows a desire to learn, even if just by following, I'll do my best to be a good/better bike racer.
- I'd try to do some kind of a leadout although my last minute choosing of who to lead out typically meant a really disorganized leadout. Sometimes I'd talk to one or two guys that I thought could use a good leadout to learn how to finish off a sprint, but typically things wouldn't work out, like they were in a break or they were toast or whatever. I'd try and adjust and tell someone else (usually another Junior) to get on my wheel. I'd even just announce "I'm leading out the sprint" and get to the front and try to set a good pace until the sprint would start. Newer riders tend to get over-excited at the bell and wither as the final moves go. It's better to have them wait just a bit more before unleashing their final efforts. My leadouts would also string out the field, a request from the head official, as a 4-5 wide last turn would be less predictable than a single file last corner. I'd do pretty hard leadouts for this reason, to try and reduce the clumping at the end of the race.
To be fair there were official mentors in later years, like this year and I think last year. They'd keep pace with some of the younger/weaker riders (often younger Juniors) and basically work a paceline with them. In the last couple years I've really backed out of the scene so I'm not one of the formal mentors like that.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
12-11-17, 09:30 AM
#49
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I've been an unofficial mentor in races here and there, really there to help whoever. Cat 3 in a 3-4-5 race, and intent on NOT winning the race. I'm not strong enough to sit to the side and such so my mentoring was simply to set a good example. I'd hold good lines, I tried to write some blog posts on racing better (this was 2014, during the Tues Night Rent races), and ended up with three clips of the races.
Granted I was in my team's uniform, and in the clips it's obvious I was working for my teammates most of the time. However, I would try to encourage other riders, close gaps as gently as possible, do leadouts for other riders, etc. One big thing I wanted to impress on the newer riders is just how hard riders go toward the end of a race. I'm always amazed at how fast things get at the end of the races I do, it's quite shocking sometimes, even for me.
So things I'd do include:
- try to hold a good line through a turn. Mention to others some tips ("don't brake" or "brake less" is a common one). Many riders don't realize that simply being gentle through a turn is enough. I'd also try to corner "in formation" with some of the slightly more experienced riders (like a more solid 5 or a 4) so that they get used to cornering in parallel with someone nearby. Newer riders often don't know how to corner, meaning their reading/lessons don't match their real world experience, so it's important to get them to settle down, try to learn the real world stuff.
- get riders to read the wind. I'd tell some riders to sit to the sheltered side of the rider in front, trying to be loud so others would hear. I'd see those other riders duly sit a bit more to the left or right on the next lap. The Rent is ideal for this kind of work since there's almost never a direct headwind, it's almost always a significant crosswind on certain parts of the course. New riders (and experienced ones) will typically sit behind the next rider "to draft", but in a crosswind it's critical to sit in shelter, not on the wheel.
- get riders to close gaps immediately. Sometimes I'd give them a little helping push, but most of the time I'd either go and close the gap or tell them to close the last 5 feet or whatever. New riders tend to lose focus and let minor but fatal gaps go. I would try to get them to pay attention a bit more.
- when I knew a particular rider was following me I'd try to be especially smooth, pedal a bit through turns (to show them it's possible), etc. Typically these were riders that were looking to learn something by following me, and often they or their parents (or both) would ask me questions after the race. When a rider shows a desire to learn, even if just by following, I'll do my best to be a good/better bike racer.
- I'd try to do some kind of a leadout although my last minute choosing of who to lead out typically meant a really disorganized leadout. Sometimes I'd talk to one or two guys that I thought could use a good leadout to learn how to finish off a sprint, but typically things wouldn't work out, like they were in a break or they were toast or whatever. I'd try and adjust and tell someone else (usually another Junior) to get on my wheel. I'd even just announce "I'm leading out the sprint" and get to the front and try to set a good pace until the sprint would start. Newer riders tend to get over-excited at the bell and wither as the final moves go. It's better to have them wait just a bit more before unleashing their final efforts. My leadouts would also string out the field, a request from the head official, as a 4-5 wide last turn would be less predictable than a single file last corner. I'd do pretty hard leadouts for this reason, to try and reduce the clumping at the end of the race.
To be fair there were official mentors in later years, like this year and I think last year. They'd keep pace with some of the younger/weaker riders (often younger Juniors) and basically work a paceline with them. In the last couple years I've really backed out of the scene so I'm not one of the formal mentors like that.
Granted I was in my team's uniform, and in the clips it's obvious I was working for my teammates most of the time. However, I would try to encourage other riders, close gaps as gently as possible, do leadouts for other riders, etc. One big thing I wanted to impress on the newer riders is just how hard riders go toward the end of a race. I'm always amazed at how fast things get at the end of the races I do, it's quite shocking sometimes, even for me.
So things I'd do include:
- try to hold a good line through a turn. Mention to others some tips ("don't brake" or "brake less" is a common one). Many riders don't realize that simply being gentle through a turn is enough. I'd also try to corner "in formation" with some of the slightly more experienced riders (like a more solid 5 or a 4) so that they get used to cornering in parallel with someone nearby. Newer riders often don't know how to corner, meaning their reading/lessons don't match their real world experience, so it's important to get them to settle down, try to learn the real world stuff.
- get riders to read the wind. I'd tell some riders to sit to the sheltered side of the rider in front, trying to be loud so others would hear. I'd see those other riders duly sit a bit more to the left or right on the next lap. The Rent is ideal for this kind of work since there's almost never a direct headwind, it's almost always a significant crosswind on certain parts of the course. New riders (and experienced ones) will typically sit behind the next rider "to draft", but in a crosswind it's critical to sit in shelter, not on the wheel.
- get riders to close gaps immediately. Sometimes I'd give them a little helping push, but most of the time I'd either go and close the gap or tell them to close the last 5 feet or whatever. New riders tend to lose focus and let minor but fatal gaps go. I would try to get them to pay attention a bit more.
- when I knew a particular rider was following me I'd try to be especially smooth, pedal a bit through turns (to show them it's possible), etc. Typically these were riders that were looking to learn something by following me, and often they or their parents (or both) would ask me questions after the race. When a rider shows a desire to learn, even if just by following, I'll do my best to be a good/better bike racer.
- I'd try to do some kind of a leadout although my last minute choosing of who to lead out typically meant a really disorganized leadout. Sometimes I'd talk to one or two guys that I thought could use a good leadout to learn how to finish off a sprint, but typically things wouldn't work out, like they were in a break or they were toast or whatever. I'd try and adjust and tell someone else (usually another Junior) to get on my wheel. I'd even just announce "I'm leading out the sprint" and get to the front and try to set a good pace until the sprint would start. Newer riders tend to get over-excited at the bell and wither as the final moves go. It's better to have them wait just a bit more before unleashing their final efforts. My leadouts would also string out the field, a request from the head official, as a 4-5 wide last turn would be less predictable than a single file last corner. I'd do pretty hard leadouts for this reason, to try and reduce the clumping at the end of the race.
To be fair there were official mentors in later years, like this year and I think last year. They'd keep pace with some of the younger/weaker riders (often younger Juniors) and basically work a paceline with them. In the last couple years I've really backed out of the scene so I'm not one of the formal mentors like that.
