djb

like others have said, panniers are just easier to use day in, day out. Taking them off takes seconds, handy in all sorts of situations.
So I guess my question is, why do you want to go the bikepacking bag route? It sounds like your trip is the sort of trip that panniers would have no negative impact at all.

In the end, its up to you to try out both ways, Im sure you're aware of how much you'll have to spend to buy various bags and whatnot.

sounds like visiting a bunch of bike stores that sell this stuff where you can physically hold them in hand, stick them on your bike for tests in store, is the way to go.

good luck with your experimenting, and no matter what containers you use to carry your stuff, good planning in all aspects for your adventure. Have fun, thats the whole idea.

nun

For me the line between touring and bikepacking is the terrain that is covered. Touring is mostly on paved roads and bikepacking concentrates on gravel and other off road paths. Mine and your setups might be looked at as "bikepacking" because we use principles of ultralight camping in gear selections and don't have panniers despite them being on basically road bikes. What often amuses me about bikepacking set ups is the number of bags they like to use and some of the set ups look very cluttered. This would annoy me when traveling off the bike and when setting up camp.

saddlesores

don't really understand. you seem to have a nice system that works well and
meets your specific needs. why fix something that's not borken?
your frame geometry will limit your possible bikepacking bag choices, so if you
want a change, maybe look at smaller, narrower profile bags.

doesn't seem you NEED the new setup due to terrain. you should be able to
manage most routes with panniers anyways. I've done plenty of rough dirt
roads and trails in Cambodia and laos carrying 20 pounds in rear bags and
3-5 pounds in a handlebar bag. narrow trails, river crossings, dirt slides.
steep goat trails is about all I wouldn't want to try.

staehpj1

I have also done a little off/dirt road touring on my mountain bike. I still didn't chose not to call it bikepacking although I guess I reasonably could have.

I initially assumed a fast and light approach for bikepacking, but seeing people's rigs posted I see that is often not the case. A lot of folks are carrying a lot of gear, some what I'd consider heavy touring, so I guess that assumption was wrong.

Initially I also assumed bikepacking was pretty much off road and trail centric, but it seems from what I gather to be mostly dirt road centric. Even the GDMBR which is apparently the iconic bikepacking route sounds like it is mostly on dirt roads of some sort. I see it listed as 3% single track. So my early assumption of bikepacking being trail centric was wrong too.

So that kind of leaves us with it being dirt road touring on a mountain bike. My assumption of a mountain bike is kind of going away with the surge of popularity of adventure and gravel bikes. So there went that assumption.

That still leaves the particular style of baggage, but as I said I really don't see much point in making the style of bags the defining factor in a style of touring.

So to me it all seems pretty arbitrary. If folks like to call what they do bikepacking that is fine. If someone else doing the same this thinks it is touring that's fine too, but there really isn't much point in dividing us too much since we can really benefit from sharing across these arbitrary dividing lines.

Rob_E

Yes, this is what confuses me. The initial comparison of bikepacking and credit card touring didn't offend me, it just made me wonder what the OP thought bikepacking was. Now here's a thread about how to get the OP set-up for bikepacking, and I'm still not clear what the OP thinks bikebacking is or why changing set-ups would be desirable.

The only time I've gone with a full bike-packing set-up is when I wanted to fly with my bike, and couldn't make room in the case for the rack. It was workable, but kind of a pain given the amount of gear I was carrying. On future trips I've made a better effort to make sure that rear rack can come along.

I'm not opposed to going back to a full bikepacking set-up, but first I would need to pare my gear down. I think a bikepacking set-up excels when you're trying to keep bike and gear weight down as much as possible. Like others have said, it's also really helpful if you're doing tight, single track where panniers might snag obstacles. Any path that can or has accommodated a car or train will not likely qualify.

Given the gear list and the type of riding the OP has discussed so far, I wonder what they hope to gain by abandoning a rack and pannier set-up (assuming that's the goal).

Also your gear/weight list is informative, but I have found the limiting factor in a bikepacking set-up is often not weight, but volume. The set-up for a given trip is usually determined by temperature. The warmer the trip, the less volume given over to warm sleeping gear and clothing, the more places I can cut back. If you have the experience of knowing how much space your gear takes up in a different set-up, you can apply that to figuring out where that gear would go in a bikepacking set-up. But personally, I find my rear rack is very useful, and there has to be a compelling reason for me to tour without it.

cyccommute 

In bikepacking, the tent and sleeping bag go on the handlebars. This is mostly because off-road bikes don't have racks or provisions for mounting them. Remember that bikepacking is made for mountain bikes more than for road bikes. Even if the bike has a rack like mine, there isn't enough room between the saddle bag and the rack for the tent and sleeping bag. Additionally, in my experience, when the going gets rough, the tent and sleeping bag are the first to abandon ship.

My stove and canister are now carried in the bags on the legs of the fork. My cup and some utensils are carried in the other fork bag. Because space is limited and because I'm riding this setup in remote areas, I don't go elaborate on food. The only "cooking" gear I carry is a Primus Litech kettle. I make coffee in the morning, eat cold breakfast bars and do freeze-dried at night. My coffee filter is a Ortlieb coffee filter and I filter it into a titanium cup. The titanium doesn't transmit heat as well as other metals so it keeps it a bit warmer. I have found that Ortlieb drains too slowly, however, and my coffee is cold by the time I want to drink it. Next year I'm going to use this one. It's just as flat as the Ortlieb but should drain faster. The key is to keep everything minimalist as possible.

There are other bags you can get as add-ons to carry other stuff. There are a couple of bags for the top tube and things you can hang on the inside of the bars that have been shown before. Remember, however, that additional bags have their own weight. It adds up quickly.

I fully agree. Unless you have a need for bikepacking gear, panniers make a lot more sense. We have a bus service in Colorado that I've used a couple of times now to get to and from a starting point. The first one (see Gold Fever in my sig), I could put my bike under the bus in the cargo area. I didn't have to take anything off the bike. I did a trip this summer (I haven't written it up yet but I've shown pictures of it) and the service has become so popular that my bike had to go on the front of the bus. I had to take almost everything off the bike before putting it on the rack and bikepacking bags aren't meant to be carried. The odd shapes make the bags harder to carry. There's no real handles to carry them with either. And taking them off and putting them back on the bike isn't simple. There are lots of straps and buckles and bindings to fasten.

There's also dealing with them at camp. Panniers can be compartmentalized so that you don't have to dig through everything to get anything out. With bikepacking bags, you put things where they can fit and, as such, you often have to dig out everything to get to anything. The kettle, for example is at the bottom of the triangle bag on my bike. There's rain stuff above it and some cold weather gear below it. More cold weather gear is in the seat bag but fresh clothes and any street clothes go below it. I'm always rummaging around in the bag and camp feels much more like a garage sale than anything else.

If you want to do rugged, remote, off-pavement, jeep trail type touring, go with bikepacking gear. If you are doing mostly pavement, stick with panniers. On the other hand, if you want to try rugged off-pavement touring, get some bikepacking gear and go to town. But I wouldn't replace one with the other and vise versa.

staehpj1

..

djb

**great comments cyccos, and a great example of how bikepacking and "regular touring bags" discussions can be very useful together

all kinds of good info and tips that can be shared and cross pollinated....

Happy Feet

As others note, the question is why bike packing if what works works. The only time bike packing gear ie. seat post, frame, HB bags, really pays off in a practical sense is when the terrain dictates. A rough path, traveled at speed, will either snag, rip or shake traditional gear off. Until you hit that point it's just a matter of choice.

My point being, without sounding too pessimistic, is that if you want to give full on bike packing, as portrayed in modern social media, a try you have to accept you can't take a lot of luxury items along for the ride. It just isn't made for that. If you want the extras, which is fine, you will probably be more happy with a modified set up that uses some bike packing gear and some traditional. I think that's what most posters so far have illustrated.

For example, I have always been a bit jaded towards seat post bags as being sub par. Either they are too small to hold a practical amount, or so large that they extent way back and sway from side to side. They also put a lot of stress on carbon posts and aren't really made for dropper posts. That's just my opinion of course YMMV. I resolved that by using a rack and smaller front panniers on the rear. But I also know that on a really rough trip panniers would probably shake loose or crack mounts or the impact would bust the rack bolts so in that case I would have to consider packing less/lighter to accommodate. In that case I choose a saddle bag as being a little more stable than a seat post bag.

nun

Ah, so my trip from Boston to Niagara Falls on the Erie Canal path which was largely on crushed limestone was bikepacking.

I think the real difference is that Old Freds go touring while hippsters go bikepacking.

Happy Feet

I think some people, young or old, see the equipment they use as a reflection of themselves. Other just see it as a means to an end.

If I were to ride through a region and sight see I'd think of it as a tour. "I'm touring France, or Spain, or the Prairies".

If I were to do a trail or path, say over a mountain pass or through a desert canyon, I would think of it as bike packing, in much the same way I would backpack or hike. You don't tour a hiking trail.

I suppose one can backpack Europe (for example) sort of similar to a tour but in that case one is usually taking a single pack and traveling light, not several suitcases - with the comparison being bike packing gear vs traditional racks and panniers. Bike packing races reflect this idea.

That's how I make sense of it.

mev

For what it is worth, I see two slightly different uses of the term "backpacking" or "backpackers".

Growing up in Colorado, "backpacking" is what we did in the Colorado mountains. Go for a week or so on trails through various back country areas. I also backpacked in Utah canyon country and also thought of people hiking the Appalachian or Pacific Crest trails as backpackers.

As I started traveling to Australia, Europe or other places, I also encountered "backpackers". These were folks, often young, who were traveling with just a backpack to carry their stuff. There was correlation with people traveling on the cheap. These folks were more likely to stay in hostels.

I've interpreted "bike packing" as more of an outgrowth of the first term of backpacking. Essentially an outgrowth of mountain biking and somewhat a cross with backpacking. I see it getting popularized by routes like the GDMBR and races like Tour Divide, but also similar things. I see companies like Revelate coming after that with branding their bag systems as "bikepacker" bags. Although they can be used in other instances, such bags met needs for bikes that didn't always have racks and situations where narrow single track could hang up on panniers that were too wide. I think things have grown from there, but also note that traveling the GDMBR, Baja Divide and similar routes expand in popularity. I did some short stretches of GDMBR on my 2016 trip and noticed a variety of ages (not all young hipsters), gear and approaches to following that route.

Similarly, I see my definition of touring as pretty broad - including tours I've done. I find a bigger difference between (a) what I call "expedition touring", e.g. on rough often-unpaved roads in developing countries and (b) supported multi-day rides like Ride the Rockies than I find between (a) expedition touring and (c) bike packing on the GDMBR. In between are things like TDA, a supported ride across Africa or self-supported riding on routes like the Transamerica trail.

The exact terms can often be broader and sometimes get mixed together but I would have slightly different pictures in my head if someone said they were going "bike packing" vs. "bike touring". But I might also get surprised with what they actually meant.

nun

Maybe the most significant difference between most conventional touring setups and bikepacking is the lack of racks in the latter. Rackless bag systems were driven by the lack of mounting points on the bikes first used and the desire to eliminate panniers, but now the new adventure and gravel bikes can take racks so maybe that original distinction will also blur.

I like to use a conventional handlebar bag as I stop often in towns and want to easily remove my bag and carry it around town. The Ortlieb Classic and the Klick Fix mount does that. Bike packing handlebar rolls aren’t ideal for drop bars and are hard to access and so they wouldn’t work for me. Also bikepacking saddlebags are hard to get things out of which is one reason I prefer the transverse saddlebag with a nice big flap on the top so I can get stuff in and out easily.

Finally the reason I go with a lightweight set up is comfort. I don’t find that I miss out on anything with my gear; the riding is faster and more fun and camp set up is easier. The one drawback is that with the limited clothing I carry I must wash it every night to stay fresh.

reppans

Weight and pack volume are closely related, IMHO you need to be in ultralight territory (10lbs BPW before consumables) to fit into a bikepacking set-up. I don’t think your list even qualifies for the ‘lightweight’ category (20lbs BPW).

I might try a pseudo bikepacking set-up next year - just a 8L frame bag w/ 20L drybag/backpack strapped on a rear rack (don’t like seat bag ‘wag’).

cyccommute 

Nope...at least not where this "old Fred" is concerned. I do both. If I'm going to go long and mostly on pavement, I prefer this rig

2015-04-23 06.25.21 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

I've used this bike and set up to do part of the Erie (Lockport to Rochester), part of the C&O (Harper's Ferry to Cumberland) and all of the GAP (Cumberland to Pittsburg) (all the same trip) as well as the KATY (a couple of times) and a few other rail trails. It works very well for smooth bike paths. I did have to let some pressure out on the C&O because it isn't a smooth as the other trails but I still didn't need the float of a mountain bike tire.

If I'm going shorter and mostly off pavement, I prefer the rig I posted above. I haven't done a rugged bikepack for longer than about 4 days so far. That's mostly because food becomes an issue. I can't cook the same way I do while on a road tour. I simply don't have the place to carry food nor do I carry a cooking set. Resupplying freezes-dried is difficult even in outdoor crazy Colorado.

nun

Using modern lightweight gear will help you because it also takes up less space then more mainstream camping equipment. For bulky items try putting them in compression sacks before you pack them. This is useful for tent flys, sleeping bags and bulky clothing. You can stuff things like underwear, socks and hats etc into the gaps between the compression sacks. My bags have a capacity of 30L so with a bike packing seatbag, frame bag and handlebar roll you should be easily able to fit everything.

nun

Yeah the Erie Canal path is well maintained and even with 25mm tires I had no trouble except in one section that was under construction and I had to carry the bike over some very deep mud.
Here is my bike at the end of the trail. I think the Erie Cannal is a great trip for someone starting out as it's flat, there's lots of interest along the way and the free lock camping sites are excellent.
I don't go in for elaborate cooking on tour and just have an alcohol stove, a mug and a collapsible cup.

I go for tins of stew and soup, instant oatmeal, couscous, ramen, tea and cold food. I will
often stop at Subway and get a foot long, eat half and save the rest for the evening with tea and cookies.

I.B.Roots

yep

staehpj1

For what it is worth a good bit of the time with my gear I find stuff sacks that are not specifically designed as compression sacks work as well or actually even better for me. With practice and the right sized sacks I find I can attain pretty good compression. The advantage to the non compression sacks is that they come in a gagillion sizes. I find that I like to segregate my gear into small categories. That generally requires pretty tiny stuff sacks. Then those multiple tiny stuff sacks pack really nicely in a pack, seat bag, bar roll, jersey pocket, or what ever, better than one or two bigger compression sacks. I typically get a little more compression packing the sacks into the bag containing them. I find they make for really efficient use of space. I am usually amazed just how much I can cram into a given pack or bag and still manage to have room for more. I found this worked really well for me for backpacking and it transferred over to touring pretty well. I tend to color code the little sacks to make finding things easier.

For U/L backpacking some people like to just cram their stuff into the pack with no stuff sacks or compressions sacks, but I didn't find that worked too well for me.

nun

I really just use two compression sacks; one for my sleeping bag and the other for my tent fly. I put my tent poles across the bottom of my saddlebag and then put in the compressed sleeping bag and tent fly
Then I squeeze my sleeping pad, inflatable pillow, and cook kit in next to them. Then small things like socks, underwear, leggings, hat, nylon backpack get stuffed into the gaps. On top go light weight trousers, insulated jacket, shirt and my kung fu shoes. Finally I pull the cord on the saddlebag opening tight and buckle the flap tightly. This turns the bag into a solid block that is self supporting and can be held tight against the saddle and seat post with minimal sway.

Brian25

Great insight and advice, everyone. I am trying to use some organizational skills; lets see how this works. I am a bit overloaded with all of the ideas/ comments/ feedback. Before I start I just want to thank all of you. I have posted before on other places on bike forums only to be hit by some real nasty troll remarks. So, thank all of you for your kind words.

Here goes: djp: Who is Patricia? and what is the significance. On what surface do I ride on?... Pavement or gravel roads/dirt paths (at my age the joints won't take the beating that they used to. Picture of my bike(s) can be seen on the ravello bikes website. I hope this is not seen as a plug by the moderator.

Staehpj1 The scale I use does pounds in decimals instead of ounces...sorry I think that it was someone else that asked if I was in the planning stages? I toured Baja in March & Colorado in July for 3 weeks. I am planning on flying out to Naples for $400. next spring and plan to tour Sicily, France and some of the 6,000 kms of unused dirt railways in Spain.

saddlesores: If it aint broken, why fix it? ---- Spot on comment. I'm still not convinced about bikepacking ("a beautiful waste of energy")

RobE and nun : I am your basic bike tourist who would like to explore whether bikepacking can realistically be done as fully loaded/ self sufficient (no credit cards/ hotels), but without touring in the same stinky jersey & shorts for a few months. What happens when you sink wash your kit too late in the day, it doesn't dry by morning and you have start out when it's 40 degrees with wet clothes? Another reason: this summer I was caught in a thunderstorm and it was nice to have a dry kit to put on when the storm rolled past. So I'm not giving up having a second kit to save half of a pound. I have seen other pack lists of bike packers with all sorts of deficiencies that seem flat out coo coo. There is a you tube video where these bike packers (with only 1 kit each) get caught in a rainstorm. They end up stripping off their clothes, build a fire to dry them off. To speed things up, they get them too close to the flames..oops. Did you know that lycra has a low melting temperature?
I agree about your comment about volume v.s weight; About sleeping pads/ types. Inflatables are really comfortable and small/ compact but if you are out on a long tour there are a lot of places you are really screwed if you puncture. How to find a leak? Remember to bring a vinyl patch kit? So I am all in for the return to soft padding. but on a bike without racks: where should it go? (Back to my assertion that bike packing is best for credit card touring) unless you want to run into silly (like those people in the woods with the fire) situations. No one on this forums that I have seen has demonstrated how it can be done, so I think of the wiser to stay with more realistic traditional touring gear.

Brian25

Originally Posted by Brian25 View Post
1.0 lb Pocket shower, backpack, rope shower floor/ ground cover and flip flops - Personally I'd skip all of this and take a microfiber wash cloth
I was wondering if you have been 100% happy with your microfiber wash cloth? In previous tours I tried the water bottle/ spray method with poor results (nothing worse then that feeling all night that I still have a sweaty crotch) Hence the 100 gram pocket shower. It feels like I just spent $80. for a fancy hotel shower, I really love it, but if you say the towel works, I'd be up for checking it out.

nun

I take 2 jerseys (one bike specific and one that is ok on or off the bike), 2x bike under wear and 2x socks. When I get into camp or motel the first thing I do is shower and wash the clothes that I rode in. If in a motel I will use the old towel trick to pre dry the clothes and when in camp I just wring them out very well and hang them up to dry. If they are not dry in the morning I hang them on my bike and ride in the clothes I wore during the night. I also take leggings for cold days and they are good to ride in. Here is my bike as a drying rack

staehpj1

Well I can say it isn't perfect, but it works okay for me. It may not for you though so I suggest trying it before committing to it for a long trip. Maybe try it on a short trip or take both on a trip and discard one or mail one home after a short trial.

FWIW, trying stuff at home never seems like a good trial for me, but it may work for you. I tend to think something will work based on trying it at home and be wrong or sometimes find I am more tolerant when on the road and something I didn't tolerate at home seems fine on the road.

I use the little ones that come in a pack of 3 or 4 at Pep Boys or Harbor Freight. A pack are often free with a coupon and a purchase at Harbor Freight. They probably measure something like 12" x 14". I wash up with them using whatever soap I am carrying on that trip (often baby shampoo for hair, body, clothes, and dishes). I find that I am okay with rinsing out the micro fiber cloth and kind of squeegeeing the water off of my body rather than really drying. I think they work as well as fancy camp towels that cost 10x as much.

I used to carry an actual towel (micro fiber, but more towel sized), but found they never really dried out in a lot of the weather I experienced and a wet towel that didn't dry day after day was worse than squeegeeing off with the little microfiber washcloth which gets rinsed out each use. I guess you could do the same with the bigger towel, but if it was never dry any way I didn't see any advantage and squeegeeing off the water gets you surprisingly close to dry.

nun

How you tour is a very personal choice. What is comfortable for one person would be torture for another. There are plenty of people on here and in general that have been using low volume, light weight approaches to touring well before the craze for bikepacking started and the commercial availability of new solutions to strapping stuff to a bike will only help them. I have been using a rackless set up for many years and it got me across the USA very comfortably staying at a mix of camp sites, Warmshowers and motels. I would not want to use it in the wilds of Alaska or in deepest winter, but for everything else it works well for me. So fully loaded touring can certainly be done with a rackless bike packing set up in what I considered reasonable comfort, but that might well not be the case for someone else.