bpcyclist

Just curious what the process is whereby this happens. Many thanks.

3alarmer 

...wheels rarely go "out of dish", but they do sometimes go out of "true" in a flat plane.
If your wheel is out of dish, it was probably built wrong, or maybe someone added a wider freewheel and longer axle without redishing it.

Andrew R Stewart 

A common over time way that a rim drifts to the non drive side is that it's easier to true a wheel by pretty much only tightening the non drive side spokes. So with each annual servicing the rear rim can be trued slightly to the left, the brake gets slightly re "centered" and the cycle repeats. Another way is that the lock nuts or end caps unthread somehow when the wheel was off the bike. On reinstall the axle ends are now different then where the rim was dished to.

Do you have an issue with a bike or is this just idle wondering? Andy

TheDudeIsHere

Happened to a friend of mine. A $100 tune up at the local BS. On a ride, the cyclist was complaining that he felt sick and thought maybe he was having balance issues.

I noticed the wheel was very close to the non drive side almost rubbing the chainstay. Stopped, looked at the tire and could clearly see that the dirty high point of the tire was far left of the caliper center.

So yeah, this happens for sure when the wrong dude gets a hold of your wheel.

bpcyclist

I do have an issue with a brand-new pair of handbuilt AL wheels. The builder is a respected, longtime wheel builder with a track record and lots of references. I don't really want to "out" the shop here because I like him personally and am not sure what is really going on yet. Just know, when I could not mount my rear Hardshell (I tried everything I could, but I just could not get that last little bit. Gonna probably purchase that cool Kool Stop device--that thing is awesome!). LBS was fiddling with the rear once mounted. Something with the brake. Finally took it back off and checked and they say it was dished incorrectly. Significantly so.

I know a few things about my bike, but I have always left all wheel matters to the experts. I will pick it up at the LBS tomorrow and it should be good. I emailed the company and just let them know. The packaging was pristine, box pristine. I dunno. Kinda confused at this point. In all my years of riding and all my bikes, I have never once dealt with this.

Thanks for responding--I really appreciate everyone's assistance.

Andrew R Stewart 

bpcyclist- Don't confuse one issue with another's discussion. Wheel dish has nothing to do with tire mounting. And to offer a sort of defense of the shop if they had used another production's same model rim the tire mounting might well have been different as rims are the greater variable of bead seat diameter tolerance. Also if these rims are tubeless compatible they will be harder to mount any tire to given the bead seat design spec tubeless tires need.

As to the dish being off this is quite possible. But using the frame and rear caliper as a dishing tool can be misleading. An example of this is if a 5mm QR skewer secures the wheel and if one side's little conical spring is reversed it can cause that axle end to not fully seat in the drop out and thus look like the wheel is off dish when, almost completely but not quite, installed. I hope a proper dishing tool was used to determine the wheel's state.

TDIH- Ironic that your on line name has "dude" in it and yet you place blame on some dude This truing the rim off dish happens all the time by many mechanics because the customer expects that the wheel is correct when it is also trued straight and that with the very high spoke tensions and reduced spoke counts the drive side spokes, and their nipples, often don't like much more tension. Have you ever checked the dish on a bunch of wheels? After a few hundred you begin to understand that a "perfectly" dished wheel is not the norm. But so too the frame and/or fork will measure some amount of miss alignment. The rider typically has some body inballance/limb length difference and/or muscle strength discrepancy. There's no "perfect" in our human existence.

Bicycles have been ridden for millions of miles with slightly off center wheels and frames and most all will never know it. Andy

3alarmer 

...true dat. Half the used rear wheels I check out are dished improperly, some by a little and some by what seems to be a lot.
After the adventures they've already had in life, I can't be certain. But my suspicion is a lot of them were built that way.

Of the project bikes I've done over the years, maybe six or ten did not require some kind of frame/fork realignment. Often it's minor, sometimes not.

canklecat

I've ridden wheels that were wildly out of dish for the bike and never noticed until I looked closely. Couldn't feel any difference when riding.

First time was when a friend replaced a wheelset that was damaged when I was hit by a car. The bike was in his garage for months while I was recovering. I got the bike when I was cleared to ride again and rode it home. Never noticed any problems. Maybe a week later, after a few more rides, I checked the tire pressure and when I looked down I noticed the differences in gaps between the tire and chain stays.

The coin finally dropped that the new-to-me wheelset was from an 8-speed bike and my friend had put back on the 7-speed cassette, with spacers, from my damaged wheelset.

First I replaced the cassette with an 8-speed, since I was already planning to switch to Shimano bar-end shifters for 8-speed. Then I did a quick 'n' dirty redish at home, figuring I'd take it to the LBS later to be sure it was okay. I mounted the wheel in my Cycleops trainer, set up some homebrewed gauges to eyeball the process, and just tightened up the spokes evenly on one side. Looked good.

That was over a year ago. It's still fine. Never did get around to taking the bike to the LBS.

Later I encountered the same problem with an older but good wheelset with freewheel hub, mounted on a carbon fiber bike that was originally fitted with 8-speed cassette. Same again. At first I thought I'd mounted the wheel incorrectly (see Andrew's comments above about QR skewer springs and other factors). But this frame had non-fussy dropouts, unlike my older steel bike with looonnng dropouts and adjustable set screws (PITA, but okay once they're aligned).

I did the same quick 'n' dirty redish. No problems.

But now I'm thinking it's time to get some proper wheel building tools, especially a tension gauge. Some bike maintenance chores are just tedious or unpleasant, but there was something relaxing about messing with the wheels. Must be the combination of resemblance to a stringed instrument and repetitive hand manipulations similar to weaving, knitting, crocheting, etc.

bpcyclist

Good for you. You are far more resourceful than I am, clearly. The guys at REI, where I am going for now for service stuff since Western Bikeworks tragically went to all-online, closing their store, they just used the Park Tool device on the wheel for assessment and then adjsuted the spokes. It seems fine now.

jbucky1

​​​​bpcyclist hey there, so most bike shops have a dishing tool which measures each side of the hub and rim and they should be able to check and show you what is going on with your wheel.

One thing to note, maybe not in your case but sometimes with a QR type hub and depending on the frame , if not careful the wheel can sit crooked in the dropouts. its always good to make sure it is in the bike 100% correct before trying to visually judge if it is out of dish.

Hope that might help.

Also as one user said, many things are not 100% perfect especially factory built wheels, but a hand built wheel by a good builder should be in dish by +/ 1mm for sure.

Hope you get it sorted.

james

www.buckyrides.com

Mad Honk 

It is not always the dishing of the wheel. It can be bit of frame alignment that is off, and a perfectly dished wheel sits in the frame off center. I remember a frame repair that needed a rear derailleur side drop out replacement that wound up being 2mm off center. Multiplied by 13 inches it created a frame that was off center and showed the wheel to be out of dish when it actually wasn't. There are many ways to make a good wheel look out of dish. JMHO, MH

jbucky1

^^^ good point ^^^ ditto

- james

www.buckyrides.com

Andrew R Stewart 

The last bit I'll post here is about dishing tools. They are very simple to replicate at home. A table/counter/bench top that the wheel can be placed on horizontally. Four stacks of some thin objects (like coins, business cards). make three stacks of the thin things that will support the rim on it's side wall, the axle end should be just off the surface. Create a fourth stack under the axle end cap/lock nut. Now the wheel/rim should be resting on the three stacks with the fourth/centerally placed one touching the axle end cap/nut. Carefully pick up the wheel, flip it over and replace it on those three stacks. Now what's the fourth stack's relationship to the axle? Does the axle end cap/nut just touch the center stack as it did initially? Or is the wheel now rocking on that stack? or is the axle not yet touching the fourth stack? A dished wheel will have the axle end cap touch that fourth stack equally on each side of the wheel.

The problem with using a truing stand or frame to do this with is that error can be induced easily with not duplicating the axle's fit within the stand's axle jaws or within the drop outs. It can be easy to miss this and miss judge the wheel's placement resulting in a less the true dish check. (like my poor pun?) Andy

desconhecido 

I have a 34yo Park "home" model that I've hated since 1986 and everytime I use it I regret having not sprung for the Pro. I think this one was about $80 and the Pro was about $150 at the time, but just guessing. The stand is stout enough and the feelers work well but its impossible to get a remotely consistent center because fo the way the stand grips the axle ends. Tons of slop and if you're tring to check dish even letting one rest stay clamed tight deosn't work as the clamping of the second rest fubars everything,

ark crappy stand:

Crappy Park tools truing stand

shop made dish tool of Baltic birch an 1/8"al strip


Finally after messing aroung for a long time, I decided to soleve the dish pobem and made a simple dish stick from a little baltic birch and some 1/8 thick aluminum strip.

bpcyclist

Uh boy. Well, I finally got to take the bike for a quick ride for the first time since the rear wheel was dished. It immediatley had and has a huge rattle coming clearly from somewhere in the vicinity of the rear of the bike. No rattles, no sounds of any kind before dismounting the Maivcs and putting these on. Picked up the rear wheel and shook it like crazy and cannot duplicate. Bounced rear tire on pavement several times--not able to produce sound. The sound is best described as a kind of coarse rattle. It happens whether pedaling or coasting, big or little in front, any cog, and it only happens when going over some sort of surface irregularity or bump. There is zero rattle on perfectly smooth pavement. It's silent. I took the wheel out and reinstalled it properly. Still rattling. Last, just picking up the bike and spinning either direction will not produce the sound.

I looked everything over. The cassette appears to be in the correct position and all the cogs look as they should. The hub looks like a hub. I can take photos if that will help, but there doesn't seem to be anything to see. Spokes are all tensed, nothing moving.

I will obviously contact the wheelmaker and the LBS in the morning, but was hoping someone here might have a thought or two for me. As I have said, I know a few things about bikes, but virtually nothing about details of wheels and hubs.

bpcyclist

Uh boy. Well, I finally got to take the bike for a quick ride for the first time since the rear wheel was dished. It immediatley had and has a huge rattle coming clearly from somewhere in the vicinity of the rear of the bike. No rattles, no sounds of any kind before dismounting the Maivcs and puttin gthese on. Picked up the rear wheel and shook it like crazy and cannot duplicate. Bounced rear tire on pavement several times--not able to produce sound. The sound is best described as a kind of coarse rattle. It happens whether pedaling or coasting, big or little in front, any cog, and it only happens when going over somo sort of surface irregularity or bump. There is zero rattle on perfectly smooth pavement. It;s silent. I took the wheel out and reinstalled it properly. Still rattling.

I looked everything over. The cassette appears to be in the correct position and all the cogs lookas they should. The hub looks like a hub. I can take photos if that will help, but the

I will obviously contact the wheelmaker and the LBS in the morning, but was hoping someone here might have a thought or two for me. As I have said, I know a few things about bikes, but virtually nothing about details of wheels and hubs.

Eggman84

Double walled rim with a "spare" spoke nipple rattling around?

canklecat

RJ the Bike Guy's YouTube channel has videos on homebrewing some tools and gauges, including a dishing tool, spreader to accommodate wider wheels/tires, straightening tool for wonky chainstays (presumably for when the former effort goes askew), etc. Worth a look.

3alarmer 

...rattle like this are usually caused by gremlins. Or at this point I'm beginning to think you might be cursed.

3alarmer 

...did you mention whether you are riding with fenders ?

Mad Honk 

How about a picture of the wheel in question? Smiles, MH

bpcyclist

Okay, well, this is a bit embarrassing. I had looked everything over and I had touched a lot of the rear of the bike, but I had not, quite stupidly, grabbed ahold of the cassette. I did so and there was at least 3 mm of movement in it. Reached down and felt of the lockring and guess what? I could move the lockring with my fingers!! Ha! They had forgotten to tighten it after mounting everything. So, I don't have a lockring tool, which I am ordering today. Took it back up to the shop and the bike is silent now.

Learned my lesson here. Can't worry about getting dirty. Gotta take a feel of things. It might give me my answer.

Thanks a million for all the help.

Andrew R Stewart 

And thank you for providing closure to this thread. Andy

Amt0571

I'd love to know that. My rear Mavic Ksyrium Disc was perfectly centered when I bought the bike. One day, I noticed it was not centered. It had somehow moved towards the NDS 3 or 4mm. Fixed it in 15 minutes just by tightening the DS spokes. I opted for this solution because I thought it was more probable that the DS spokes loosened than the NDS had tightened themselves.

What I don't manage to understand is: how is it possible that all the spokes loosened extactly the same? the wheel was just displaced laterally, but was perfectly true, and it couldn't be a QR placement issue since the bike uses thru axles. Oh... and this happened in a less than a year old bike, ridden for less than 3000km. Since I fixed it, It stayed in place.