Alupang

OK I thought I'd share my commuting bike project thoughts. I think I've finally settled down to what I think is the best build for my specific needs. First a little info about my commute: It's 14 miles each way on tropical island Guam USA. It's hot and humid here 365 days a year but now we are entering the dry season=much less rain.

The roads on Guam, especially in the south are horrible. Think potholes and glass with screws and wire added into the mix. I ride in the shoulder and/or sidewalk 90 percent of the time. 10 percent I'm on the road because there is absolutely no shoulder or sidewalk for my last mile--I ride the white line with cars just feet away. If it's wet, I am often walking in mud and/or grass.

I wanted to build a "money's no object" bike that could cruise as fast as possible over what is basically a carpet of broken glass and misc debris. I wanted to build the lightest and most efficient bike possible that is tough enough to handle this task. Tires: First I tried Conti Ultra Gatorskins (fail), then Gator Hardshells(fail), then Gator Hardshells with Ultras with beads cut off inside as liners---this works until the cuts eventually destroy the outer tires. Too expensive. Now I've finally settled on 25mm Marathon Plus in the front with a regular 25mm Marathon with a 23mm Ultra Gatorskin inside as a liner in the rear. This tire combination so far absolutely bulletproof.

My commuter bike is basically full Dura Ace 7800 with 32H DT Swiss RR 465 rims. I use a Lezyne Super Drive light in the front with a Planet Bike Blinky Super attached to the back of my helmet. I carry no pump and tubes. My pedals are Shimano MX 30 platform and I wear lightweight rubber Crocs that allow me to walk for miles off road (if need be) while sticking like glue to the MX 30 pedal's sharp protruding screws. Crocs are super light, easy to wash clean and don't ever smell. I like the MX 30 pedals because although they are heavy, they have real ball bearings and are rebuildable. I feel the reduced friction from quality ball bearings more than make up for their added weight over say, a cheaper lighter bushing pedal like Welgo, My commute starts 530 am in total darkness.



Here's a pic of the bike: 2008 Giant Advanced ISP.

fietsbob

On a Race Bike, it wont take, what, an hour one side to the other..

the Island is what , smaller than Luxemburg?

Thulsadoom

You carry no tubes or pump/inflator? What's the rationale behind that?

stayfed

My grandparents are from Guam! I'd love to visit sometime!

buck65

Your double tire setup in the rear sounds awesome! That's quite a bit of rubber--I'm surprised everything fits underneath that Marathon. Have you noticed dramatic acceleration differences when comparing your current set up to your previous Continental set ups?

canyoneagle

Nice!
It is a racier bike then I'd personally choose, given your riding conditions, but it seems to work for you.

Alupang

My tires don't go flat what's the rationale for carrying a pump/inflater or tubes? I don't carry anything besides water and some breakfast snacks. I do carry a very small Park Tools Multi-tool for adjusting seat clamps etc. But that is it.

Alupang

You could just go with Marathon Plus front and rear and forget about my liners. But I purchased both the regular and "Plus" version Marathon to compare and it is my guess/opinion that the regular version Marathon might fail if used alone without a liner here on Guam. When my regular Marathon wears out I am replacing it with a Plus and run Plus for both front and rear without liners. I trust the Plus that much.

Now to answer your question about the performance or Marathon Plus VS using Gator Hardshell with my tire liners. My favorite almost bulletproof wheel/ tire setup is as follows: For weekend rides up north (northern Guam roads are still bad but not horrible like the south) I use Dura Ace C24 wheels to reduce overall weight. My front wheel has 25mm Ultra Gatorskin with a 23mm Vittoria Zaffiro Pro inside as a liner. Rear wheel has 25mm Gator Hardshell with 23mm Zaffiro Pro liner. It is my opinion that the 23mm Zaffiro Pro is the cheapest (I purchased a pair for about $40) and best liner for using under 25mm Gators. Vittoria Zaffiro Pro used as liners offer much better protection than Mr. Tuffys and have no overlap edge issues to chaff the tube.

So how is the ride comparison? The Gatorskins with Zaffiro Pro liners are far superior to the Marathons both in speed and handling/cornering. It's a love/hate relationship for me and my Marathons--I love the ability to cruise at speed over anything without flats or cuts but hate the weight and wobble with speed down hills. The Gators with Zaffiro Pro liners are puncture proof and handle great but will suffer deep destructive cuts if used continuously in some of Guam's glass filled shoulders.

If I wasn't commuting and required to ride through specific sections of Guam's most horrible roads, I would never use Marathons. The Gator Hardshell with a Zaffiro Pro liner is a superior tire solution for almost all road conditions. On weekends I sometimes ride to the northern tip of Guam--the roads there turn into pre-WW2 vintage coral paths. For those rides far from home with no cell coverage, I trust the Gators with Zaffiro Pro liners enough to not carry pump or tubes.

canyoneagle

I'd be curious to see how the Marathon Supremes (vs Plus) would compare - those are my tire of choice for many of the reasons you like the hardshells.
Hat's off to you for riding those roads on a racy bike. I'd probably opt for a cx bike or stick to my own "all conditions" bike that I currently ride, but that's just me.

Alupang

To be honest, it's the bulges and wobble issue with my Marathon/M+ that concerns me regarding Schwalbe's quality control. If I'm spending $50+ on a tire, I want it round and true without bulges. I've never had a problem with Conti Gators. I have no experience with Schwalbe's other tires.

I like a racy bikes because ultimately they are more efficient=more fun for me. The 25mm Marathon is more than tough enough to handle any of my on/off road needs (I don't ever ride in mud or loose sand) so I don't see any advantage of a heavier CX or "all condition" bike. Breaking is very important to me too--I won't give up my Dura Ace 7800/7900 calipers and STI levers.

Thulsadoom

Uh huh.

Lot's of people ride on bad roads. I lived on Guam for a couple of years. I don't remember the roads being any worse than the ones I ride on now. Makes sense to run robust tires, sure, but assuming you'll never get a flat does not.

canyoneagle

I hear ya to some extent. I've ridden just about every type of bike out there with the exception of AM or DH mountain bikes. I've ridden road bikes on gravel and mountain bikes on the road, cx on technical singletrack and about everything in between. I find For just about any conditions outside of good pavement, I find I can ride faster and more comfortably on my 50mm slicks than on a road bike. And my 180mm discs combined with the rounder tire profile give me braking unlike anything that is possible on a road bike, with a lot more control if a wheel locks up for any reason. It's more fun for me, too, because I don't have to fret about potholes, seams and other things that require my attention on the road bike. In my experience, I can actually carry faster speeds on poor roads/dirt roads/gravel on my all-rounder than I can on a road bike, in far more comfort and better control, while having more fun in the process. I've tried the Paris-Roubaix thing (rough roads on 27 or 28mm tires) and ya know, it wasn't fun for me. Just my preference. Sounds like you enjoy it, but I think you'd be pleasantly surprised if you tried another setup for comparison.
It is also possible that I am envisioning your roads to be far more horrific than what you meant to convey.

Give me some nice asphalt or concrete, and I'll take a decked out road bike with tubulars and the works hands down. That's just bliss on a stick

Oh, and final note - I'm not trying to be contrary or anything, just sharing "thoughts" as invited in the thread title.

Alupang

OK so what about pretty good smooth pavement and/or concrete but with glass and wire and misc debris all over? This makes up 99 percent of my riding--pretty smooth surface yes but covered with glass and small bits of rock and gosh knows what else. Just enough to tear a Gatorskin apart over time but not a Marathon. What type of bike would you wish to ride here?

I really enjoyed reading and learning from what you have to say--you obviously have more experience than me. You got me pondering for sure and don't worry about being contrary. Bring it.

Alupang

Here are a few pics of my Vittoria tire liner inside a Gator Hardshell. I cut the bead off and leave quite a bit of sidewall to double up that area too. This works great.

canyoneagle

Ahh, crystal clear.
I totally get your approach given these conditions. If the pavement itself is not too bad (relatively infrequent potholes, fairly good surface, etc), I can relate to your approach with the focus on protection from the glass.
I think given those circumstances, I'd personally opt for a cx with bomber 32 tires such as your setup.

Alupang

I've read nothing but rave reviews on the Marathon Supremes and would love to try them. However I think the smallest available is 28mm and I'm worried that it won't fit my 2008 Advanced or even tighter clearance 2011 Advanced SL. How much bigger (taller? wider?) is the 28mm SupM compared to the 25mm M+? I ask because stated specs are usually total BS. For example, did you know the 23mm and 25mm Vittoria Zaffiro Pro are exactly the same tire with just different labels?

Any reason to choose a Supreme Marathon over a Hardshell? I'm interested to know.

Alupang

Yes lots of great places to ride on Guam...heck in the tourist area where I live the roads and sidewalks are clean enough to run a standard racing training tire like Conti GP4000.

But...once you are south of Adalup all bets are off as the roads and shoulders become very polluted with glass and debris. I ride this section of Guam's roads everyday and lived on Guam for over 20 years so I think I have a pretty good handle on this. You seem to imply I don't?

Also, I built my commuter bike to be puncture proof. My goodness I read about people trekking from South America to Alaska on M+s with no punctures so I see no reason to lug around a pump or tubes on a 14 mile commute--probability too low for me. You think not?? About once or twice a year I'll change out the tubes due to normal internal wear but punctures? Don't expect any.

Thulsadoom

My, aren't we a bit touchy.

Lets see...

You're trying to create a fast cruiser. You've got a fast bike, almost racy. Yet you're running the slowest and heaviest possible tires that you can get on your wheels, evidently to avoid getting flats. And then you don't carry a puncture kit, since you never get flats. Is it possible that your priorities are a little off?

There's such a thing as a happy medium. Most of us that ride in puncture prone areas find it sufficient to run relatively robust tires and still carry a light flat tire kit that will enable us to fix the occasional flat. The extra weight you're carrying in tire liners and heavy tires is probably more than you'd have with a small tire kit, and it wouldn't slow you down nearly as much.

Hafa.

Alupang

I cannot/do not get flats on the way to work. I don't even want to consider the possibility of a flat tire on the way to work. Once you accept that, it follows that pumps and tubes aren't needed. Most people commute on bikes built to accept wider rubber. The 25mm M+ weighs 580 grams. The 32mm M+ jumps to 800 grams. Wider tires that weigh the same or less would be prone to flats=unacceptable. So while yeah, I am using the heaviest tire possible on my bike, the DT Swiss RR 465/25mm M+ combination is still lighter overall than what most people commute on. And I can bomb through glass with impunity and don't need to carry a pump or tubes.

I get you...just not for my commuting. On weekends or vacations, I don't use my commuter wheelset with M+. I use lighter Gatorskins with or without beefy liners which are lighter and roll better. They could be used for my commuting and I've certainly tried them with some success. But the softer rubber gets cut up badly and at $50+ a pop, I think the M+ is a better solution.

DIMcyclist

So it's like a suped-up version of a Mr. Tuffy- awesome!

Alupang

Depending on what tire you choose to use a liner yeah for sure--it's up to you how much protection you need. Plus there are no edges to grind on your tube since the liner is perfectly continuous smooth.

I looked at Mr. Tuffys in our bike shop--I thought to myself no way those whimpy strips can hold a candle to a new Zaffiro Pro used as a liner. I didn't like the idea of a cut edge rubbing on my tube either--I know you can sand to taper the edge smoother but still....it's not perfectly smooth as a tire.

Alupang

I also want to add that the added sidewall protection is invaluable. A few months ago a 2 inch screw speared my brand new Gator Hardshell and exited out the sidewall near the rim. Very difficult if not impossible to boot repair because the sidewall hole was close to the bead. But with my Zaffiro Pro liner, I've been racking up the miles with no problems and expect to get full use out on my expensive Gator.

irishexpat

forget tires, I just hope you don't fall off your bike into shards of glass and nails and coral.


OUCH

DIMcyclist

Well, it should be noted- Mr. Tuffys aren't what they used to be. Granted, they were never as effective as your homemade liners, but they weren't bad at all- and they DID have a bit of taper to them at the edges.

I used to use them in the mid-'90s. I lived in Utah & rode a fair amount of singletrack at the time (Slickrock; San Rafael Swell, the Wasatch canyons, etc.) and over about five years I could count the number of bottom-up puncture flats I had on one hand (side-punctures & other types of flats: a LOT more). But the Tuffys did the job & they did it well. Then they changed them, introduced some gummier-style ones and the ones you apparently saw, with the cut edges; I didn't like them and I haven't used them since.