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Separate but Equal is the Only Way To Ensure Bike Safety

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Separate but Equal is the Only Way To Ensure Bike Safety

Old 05-19-18, 06:52 AM
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raria
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Separate but Equal is the Only Way To Ensure Bike Safety

I've ridden a bike for two decades in the USA and have done extensive touring and/or lived for extended periods in England, France, Germany, Netherlands etc.

I've come to the conclusion that the only way going forward to maintain tolerable safety of riders is to have separate by equal bike and car lanes. Now I don't mean a line painted on a road to separate the bike lane from cars giving the bikes four feet. Rather I mean a raised divider which a car cannot and is not allowed to cross.

I've come to this conclusion because of many reasons such as those listed below but there are of course others:

i) A 2+ tonne automobile with hard shells and a 200 pound soft machine are just incompatible to operate together without a significant risk to the later.
ii) The belief ingrained in society that the roads were created for use by cars and bicyclist use them at their own peril
iii) The refusal of the courts to hold drivers liable for culpable behavior no mater how egrigous and dangerous. A driver just needs a plausible execuse and they are given a free pass.

In France they have a win/win situation. They have separate bus lanes separated from cars by a 10 cm raised divider that bikes are permitted to use. It works doubly great at reducing cars from the road because people like to take public transportation (its faster than cars due to the dedicated lanes) and people like to ride their bikes because its safe.

See attached photo in Paris.

What do you think? I just see no way for bikes and cars to co-exist (to our satisfaction) on the same space.

Last edited by raria; 05-19-18 at 06:57 AM.
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Old 05-19-18, 07:28 AM
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The laws of physics would support your conclusion. However, the laws of reality, at least here in the U.S., make this unlikely due to the infrastructure modifications and costs. We can't even properly maintain what we have.
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Old 05-19-18, 08:19 AM
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Exactly.

I partially agree. . . . if we don't make drastic changes like separate but equal pathways there will always many fatalities of cyclists.

I disagree with the cost issue you raise. It does requires a mindset change to priortize bus and public transit over cars. These bus lanes take away 1.5 car lanes.

Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg
The laws of physics would support your conclusion. However, the laws of reality, at least here in the U.S., make this unlikely due to the infrastructure modifications and costs. We can't even properly maintain what we have.

Last edited by BillyD; 05-19-18 at 10:48 AM. Reason: gun talk
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Old 05-19-18, 08:35 AM
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I'd like to live in the nirvana you describe.
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Old 05-19-18, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by wgscott
. . .
If you push on this thread a bit more, the mods will move it to the abyss otherwise known as the P&R forum!

Last edited by BillyD; 05-19-18 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 05-19-18, 08:43 AM
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raria
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No al all.

My point was not supposed to be political. Just pragmatic.

If we want to really stop all these killings we need major changes. Not just these piddly 3 foot passing laws or painitng bike lanes in brighter colorers. We need real fundamental changes like separate paths for bikes.

Originally Posted by wgscott
. . .

Last edited by BillyD; 05-19-18 at 10:50 AM. Reason: Removed gun talk
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Old 05-19-18, 08:45 AM
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Sorry, I just assumed it was a ploy (and I still do). Cars aren't designed to be weapons, so it is a false equivalency.

How about universal enforcement of currently-existing laws and vigorous prosecution of the offenders?
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Old 05-19-18, 08:52 AM
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raria
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But this entire forum is about existing laws.

That's my third point in the OP. This entire forum is about existing laws and vigorous prosecution as you put it.

But lets be honest. Whose happy with: i) the existing laws, and ii) how vigorous the prosecution of offenders is?

I would say (and that's been generous) that for every thread about a fair prosecutions there are 10+ threads where the person has gotten away with just a slap on the wrists.

Originally Posted by wgscott
Sorry, I just assumed it was a ploy (and I still do). Cars aren't designed to be weapons, so it is a false equivalency.

How about universal enforcement of currently-existing laws and vigorous prosecution of the offenders?
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Old 05-19-18, 08:55 AM
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Fair point. Ignore my comment about Guns

I just wanted to point out that the current status quo in both situations is not working. But if the comparison is too politically charged then lets just drop it.

I really do believe that the only way to stop all these cyclists deaths is to have separate bike lanes which cars cannot go on.

Originally Posted by bikemig
If you push on this thread a bit more, the mods will move it to the abyss otherwise known as the P&R forum!
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Old 05-19-18, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by wgscott
How about universal enforcement of currently-existing laws and vigorous prosecution of the offenders?
Much more economical and sensible than totally reconfiguring the road design/traffic patterns of major cities, eh?
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Old 05-19-18, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by raria
I would say (and that's been generous) that for every thread about a fair prosecutions there are 10+ threads where the person has gotten away with just a slap on the wrists.
Does that mean only 1/10 cases are prosecuted fairly, or that the unfair ones attract disproportionate attention? Your metric is indirect, and not a reliable indicator of the actual statistics.
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Old 05-19-18, 09:07 AM
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Actually, this does seem doable in a very old city like Manhattan, a place I will never willingly go again, make car driving less convenient. But mass transit and food/goods delivery will have to share.
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Old 05-19-18, 09:11 AM
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I thing that our local drivers would just slide over that little hump and start honking at anyone in their way. Add some bollards and then we're talking.
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Old 05-19-18, 09:54 AM
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Should have been clearer

The lane is *only* for buses and bikes. Cars can't enter them. The hump is just to put a physical barrier so that the car's don't drift into the bike lane while the drivers are texting, arguing or by mistake.

It's great idea the French have. You see loads of adults, kids and families using the bike/bus lanes. You just have to be careful that when a bus comes up you pull to the side to let them pass. But buses are not that frequent and you'd be lucky to encounter one on a 10 minute trip.

Originally Posted by wphamilton
I thing that our local drivers would just slide over that little hump and start honking at anyone in their way. Add some bollards and then we're talking.
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Old 05-19-18, 09:55 AM
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it would work in any city with dedicated bus lanes

Since mass bus transit is a way of life here, most cities have dedicated bus lanes. So making them bike/bus lanes is not a challenge. It's wonderful on the weekend when buses are minimal. Then they become default bike lanes.

Originally Posted by FBOATSB
Actually, this does seem doable in a very old city like Manhattan, a place I will never willingly go again, make car driving less convenient. But mass transit and food/goods delivery will have to share.
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Old 05-19-18, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by raria
The lane is *only* for buses and bikes. Cars can't enter them. The hump is just to put a physical barrier so that the car's don't drift into the bike lane while the drivers are texting, arguing or by mistake.

It's great idea the French have. You see loads of adults, kids and families using the bike/bus lanes. You just have to be careful that when a bus comes up you pull to the side to let them pass. But buses are not that frequent and you'd be lucky to encounter one on a 10 minute trip.
I understood that. "We" in the Atlanta area don't seem to care about bus-only lanes, turn-only lanes and so on, and tend to see them as mere suggestions regardless of whatever rules or traffic laws there may be. I'm all in on the concept, it just would need a more definite physical barrier.
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Old 05-19-18, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by raria
i) A 2+ tonne automobile with hard shells and a 200 pound soft machine are just incompatible to operate together without a significant risk to the later.
Then how do 1800 pound Smart cars and 80,000 pound trucks share the same road all the time?

Oh yeah; reasonable training requirements for the person controlling the larger vehicle, and serious penalties if they do so carelessly.
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Old 05-19-18, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by KD5NRH
Then how do 1800 pound Smart cars and 80,000 pound trucks share the same road all the time?
Lower or no speed differential.

Motorcyclists in general feel more safe in traffic than cyclists because they can keep up with cars and claim an entire lane habitually, and thus don't have to deal with cars constantly passing them too closely. Otherwise, the inherent risks are mostly the same.
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Old 05-19-18, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by General Geoff
Lower or no speed differential.
Not necessarily; we've got plenty of little old ladies locally who drive their tiny cars as if they're on a 30mph residential at all times. They'll go 30 down a stretch of 60mph highway connecting the city proper with a couple of outlying housing developments "because I'm just going a couple miles" and yet the big rigs manage to not flatten them in spite of a speed differential double that of a 15mph cyclist in 30mph traffic. Same for the RV hillbillies in their self-propelled singlewides; I've been stuck behind one for 14 miles on a two-lane 75mph highway going 40. While there were some unsafe pass attempts by other cars, nobody got rear ended because of the speed differential.
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Old 05-19-18, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by KD5NRH
Not necessarily; we've got plenty of little old ladies locally who drive their tiny cars as if they're on a 30mph residential at all times. They'll go 30 down a stretch of 60mph highway connecting the city proper with a couple of outlying housing developments "because I'm just going a couple miles" and yet the big rigs manage to not flatten them in spite of a speed differential double that of a 15mph cyclist in 30mph traffic. Same for the RV hillbillies in their self-propelled singlewides; I've been stuck behind one for 14 miles on a two-lane 75mph highway going 40. While there were some unsafe pass attempts by other cars, nobody got rear ended because of the speed differential.
The risk those little old ladies take in driving at half the speed limit on a limited access highway is VERY MUCH at the same level as a cyclist on the road doing the same. See also: Solomon curve.
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Old 05-19-18, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by General Geoff
The risk those little old ladies take in driving at half the speed limit on a limited access highway is VERY MUCH at the same level as a cyclist on the road doing the same.
No, it's not, for the simple reason that people very rarely try to punish pass a car, tractor or RV the way they will a cyclist, regardless of speed.
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Old 05-19-18, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by KD5NRH
No, it's not, for the simple reason that people very rarely try to punish pass a car, tractor or RV the way they will a cyclist, regardless of speed.
Yes, it is, because people very rarely try to punish pass cyclists, statistically.


Just as many people get annoyed at greyhairs holding up traffic as they do at cyclists.
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Old 05-19-18, 01:10 PM
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Big difference NL bike riders are a huge number of Voters.

And so they get infrastructure.. Spending..

more than just paint and stencils.




..
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Old 05-19-18, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by General Geoff
Yes, it is, because people very rarely try to punish pass cyclists, statistically.
I didn't say "try to punish pass." Whether they're trying or not, people do pass cyclists within inches far more often than they do cars, trucks or farm equipment.
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Old 05-19-18, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by KD5NRH
I didn't say "try to punish pass." Whether they're trying or not, people do pass cyclists within inches far more often than they do cars, trucks or farm equipment.
This simply isn't true.

Cars will readily pass any person or vehicle that is obstructing traffic significantly, with whatever space is perceived as available.

Also, I literally quoted your original post with "try to punish pass"
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