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Now cars can kill you without a driver...

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Now cars can kill you without a driver...

Old 05-13-18, 01:17 PM
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Now cars can kill you without a driver...

"Keyless ignitions are now standard in over half of the 17 million new vehicles sold annually in the United States..."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/b...xide-toll.html
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Old 05-13-18, 01:25 PM
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Oh man, it is tragic but I can't help but laugh at the idea of being killed by this inane car 'feature'.

Last time I went to get a new car I was dumbfounded that this was part of most of the cars I was looking at. First thing I asked is how do you make sure the car is off? No answer. I never could have conceived that this would end up killing people! Such a stupid thing, I can't even imagine why someone would want that in the first place, I guess it appeals to the gimmick-seeking crowd but to me it is yet another "feature" for cars that is bound to go wrong after a few years and cost money to fix.

I think from now on my purchases will all be "vintage" cars. I am not going to pay a huge amount for a car just so that built in sabotage chips can make it unusable in 5 years.
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Old 05-13-18, 02:29 PM
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Oh for gosh sakes...
But weaned from the habit of turning and removing a key to shut off the motor, drivers — particularly older ones — can be lulled by newer, quieter engines into mistakenly thinking that it has stopped running.
Uh don't those lights and indicators on the dashboard mean anything? Sheesh.

Frankly I laugh when driving my wife's rather new car... I have to wait for the darn thing to "boot up" before driving it. That means all the lights come on, then it runs through a power up sequence, and finally the "infotainment/GPS" system warns me about distractions. While the car is running, there are lots of various indicators on the dash, and the infotainment system that tell me the car is ON. If someone is too uh, "dim" to miss all that... I wonder about their ability to safely drive.
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Old 05-13-18, 02:44 PM
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Key, or keyless, it is all the same. I am still going to 'take the lane'.
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Old 05-13-18, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
Oh for gosh sakes...


Uh don't those lights and indicators on the dashboard mean anything? Sheesh.
Do you really check the status of "those lights and indicators on the dashboard" before exiting your car?
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Old 05-13-18, 05:26 PM
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I don’t see any real advantage of the push button start. But now two out of our three cars don’t have any key. One disadvantage of push button was demonstrated recently at a trip to the airport. The fob was in my wife’s purse, I was driving. At the curb she jumped out to find our daughter that we were picking up. As she ran off the car started making some beeping noise and the outline of a key appeared on the dash. The car was still running though so I was able to park. If I had stopped the engine then I guess I would have been stuck. Odd that a key symbol is used in a keyless vehicle.
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Old 05-13-18, 10:27 PM
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This is the third thread today that is of entirely automotive content. And I am not really looking that hard. WTF? The reason why there is an A&S forum in the first place is because less than 1% of the 'vehicles' on the road at any given time of day (less than 100th of that at night) are bicycles. Maybe if we actually rode the bicycles that we are supposed to be talking about on Bike Forums ... ...
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Old 05-14-18, 12:47 AM
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Mom's Prius vehemently complains when the key is not in the car.

I haven't ever tried to idle it without anybody in the car.

My guess this issue is about a feature of remote start/warm-up that some cars were supposed to have a few years ago. Remotely start the car from in the living room, and have it all nice and toasty by the time you get to the garage.

In fact, there could be a risk that one properly parked and shut off the car, then accidentally bumped the button. Kind of like the infamous butt-dial on cell phones.

It should be easy enough to add a 15 minute idle shutoff feature on the cars.
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Old 05-14-18, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
This is the third thread today that is of entirely automotive content. And I am not really looking that hard. WTF? The reason why there is an A&S forum in the first place is because less than 1% of the 'vehicles' on the road at any given time of day (less than 100th of that at night) are bicycles. Maybe if we actually rode the bicycles that we are supposed to be talking about on Bike Forums ... ...
Because the biggest threat to all road users by a huge margin is the car.
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Old 05-14-18, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by seeker333
"Keyless ignitions are now standard in over half of the 17 million new vehicles sold annually in the United States..."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/13/b...xide-toll.html
It's a life saver if there's a bomb rigged to the ignition. WELL...yeah, that could happen.

And even if idling is supposed to be illegal in Oregon, you will have a warm and toasty ride and it will still sit there locked until you unlock it.

But just not in a closed garage...

I see cars dripping water from the tailpipe like a prostrate problem. I suspect NOx and NOS are more prevalent than CO2 in the equation now.
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Old 05-14-18, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Oh for gosh sakes...


Uh don't those lights and indicators on the dashboard mean anything? Sheesh.
Not to mention the sound of the engine running? I don't care how quiet a car is, you should still be able to hear it running after you get out. I guarantee that everyone except those with hearing problems ought to be able to hear a car running when it's sitting right in front of them.

I suspect it's more "dumbing down" and driver desensitization. We've got our noses in our phones and aren't paying attention to what we're doing, so it's easy for people to forget to turn their car off before shutting the garage door and going into the house. They've made cars with way too much automatic stuff in them to where people are getting desensitized toward driving.
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Old 05-14-18, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
It should be easy enough to add a 15 minute idle shutoff feature on the cars.
I would shorten it to 5. I would think a car running for 15 minutes in an enclosed garage would be enough to raise the CO levels enough where they could be harmful or fatal.
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Old 05-14-18, 10:48 AM
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If you leave a car running with the keys in the ignition, you may be injured or killed, and you may injure or kill others.
If you leave a car running with the keys in your pocket/bag, you may be injured or killed, and you may injure or kill others.

Simplifying:

If you leave a car running, you may be injured or killed, and you may injure or kill others.


-mr. bill
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Old 05-14-18, 10:51 AM
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Oh, I can imagine it now... the new untraceable murder...

Murder by hacked vehicle ignition system.

Wait until a person fills the tank with gas, then goes home and retires for the night. Then shortly after lights out, fire up the car with a stolen or cloned key fob, and let it idle.

Virtually untraceable.
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Old 05-14-18, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Do you really check the status of "those lights and indicators on the dashboard" before exiting your car?
Can't help it... I'm looking right at the dashboard when I push the stop/start button. Plus the car makes various sounds if I open the door and try to leave with the keyfob in my pocket.

I suggest if the driver is not aware of such indicators, like lights and gauges and warning beeps... perhaps the driver is not astute or aware enough to pilot a 2 ton vehicle on public streets, where lights and sounds are typical indicators. (stop lights, warning lights, flashing lights and sirens... not to mention other vehicles, and people)
After all, we do not issue drivers' licenses to blind people for a reason... those "near-blind," for what ever reason should probably not be driving.
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Old 05-14-18, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Milton Keynes
Not to mention the sound of the engine running? I don't care how quiet a car is, you should still be able to hear it running after you get out. I guarantee that everyone except those with hearing problems ought to be able to hear a car running when it's sitting right in front of them.

I suspect it's more "dumbing down" and driver desensitization. We've got our noses in our phones and aren't paying attention to what we're doing, so it's easy for people to forget to turn their car off before shutting the garage door and going into the house. They've made cars with way too much automatic stuff in them to where people are getting desensitized toward driving.
I tend to agree... although at least one poster here on this thread apparently never even looks at his dashboard...
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Old 05-14-18, 12:28 PM
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Those buttons are stupid, but not for that reason. Hate having to cycle through in a linear fashion to get gars to the mode I need at work.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Do you really check the status of "those lights and indicators on the dashboard" before exiting your car?
Yes. I'll certainly notice if my RPM gauge is not reading 0.

Originally Posted by genec
Can't help it... I'm looking right at the dashboard when I push the stop/start button. Plus the car makes various sounds if I open the door and try to leave with the keyfob in my pocket.

I suggest if the driver is not aware of such indicators, like lights and gauges and warning beeps... perhaps the driver is not astute or aware enough to pilot a 2 ton vehicle on public streets, where lights and sounds are typical indicators. (stop lights, warning lights, flashing lights and sirens... not to mention other vehicles, and people)
After all, we do not issue drivers' licenses to blind people for a reason... those "near-blind," for what ever reason should probably not be driving.
Bingo. Notice a commonality between all of them? Elderly, presumably with diminished senses if they did not notice their car was still on and running. Pretty hard to leave an idling vehicle running if you have any situational awareness at all.
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Old 05-14-18, 12:51 PM
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Many years ago, my wife, in a very anxious state, left our Mazda GLC idling with the keys locked inside. She paged me at the hospital where I was training at the time and I sprinted 5 mi on the bike to rescue her, ruining with chain grease a previously spotless pair of the white pants we wore in those days.

Which, in turn, reminds me of the Rodney Dangerfield joke: I locked my keys in the car the other day. Took me two hours to get my wife and kids out.
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Old 05-14-18, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider
I don’t see any real advantage of the push button start. But now two out of our three cars don’t have any key. One disadvantage of push button was demonstrated recently at a trip to the airport. The fob was in my wife’s purse, I was driving. At the curb she jumped out to find our daughter that we were picking up. As she ran off the car started making some beeping noise and the outline of a key appeared on the dash. The car was still running though so I was able to park. If I had stopped the engine then I guess I would have been stuck.
Of course you don't, you live in California.

Here in places where we have winter, people love remote starts because they can fire up the car from the warmth of their homes or workplaces, let them idle for a few minutes, and then the car won't be so cold when they get in. Seems wasteful to me, but Americans love convenience and comfort.

Odd that a key symbol is used in a keyless vehicle.
It has recognition and momentum. Note how a floppy disk is still used as the "Save" icon in so many programs.
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Old 05-14-18, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Oh, I can imagine it now... the new untraceable murder...

Murder by hacked vehicle ignition system.
OK, again, that's been true with or without the engine start/stop button. It's called remote start, and it's orthogonal.

Some people even install aftermarket remote start on manual transmission cars with keys. What could possibly go wrong?

Many new cars have an engine start/stop button, but the engine WILL NOT start or stop unless you physically push the button.

(Well, the obvious exception is the engine will not start but will stop when it runs out of fuel and/or oxygen.)

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Old 05-14-18, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
Those buttons are stupid, but not for that reason. Hate having to cycle through in a linear fashion to get gars to the mode I need at work.



Yes. I'll certainly notice if my RPM gauge is not reading 0.



Bingo. Notice a commonality between all of them? Elderly, presumably with diminished senses if they did not notice their car was still on and running. Pretty hard to leave an idling vehicle running if you have any situational awareness at all.
Exactly... and if their situational awareness is that far gone... the last thing they should be doing is driving on public roads.

BTW...
Specifically, he suggests that drivers get to know what a car's gauge cluster looks like when the ignition is on and when it's off. If the gauges are still lit up, the car is still probably on. Hybrid cars, in particular, will have a dashboard light indicating the car is turned on and ready to drive.
https://money.cnn.com/2018/05/14/auto...ide/index.html

I mean really... if you don't pay enough attention to the gauges and lights, you probably shouldn't be driving...

Last edited by genec; 05-14-18 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 05-15-18, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
I mean really... if you don't pay enough attention to the gauges and lights, you probably shouldn't be driving...
Now, even as a person who engineers cars and is in and out of any number of cars on a daily basis, I will say the electric ones can be tricky. Then again, a car sitting in your garage that is turned on that runs off a battery isn't going to kill you with CO either.
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Old 05-15-18, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
Now, even as a person who engineers cars and is in and out of any number of cars on a daily basis, I will say the electric ones can be tricky. Then again, a car sitting in your garage that is turned on that runs off a battery isn't going to kill you with CO either.
Com'on, even the electric ones have lights and gauges on the dashboard... such as the inevitable "fuel" gauge...

If one cannot tell the difference between a blacked out instrument panel and one that is on and enabled... again, I suggest one doesn't have enough situational awareness to be handling a 2 ton vehicle on public roads. No doubt these are the drivers that consistently report "I didn't see the cyclist..." Or "I didn't see the pedestrian..." Well hell no, ya dummy... you didn't even know your car was on! Sheesh.
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Old 05-15-18, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Com'on, even the electric ones have lights and gauges on the dashboard... such as the inevitable "fuel" gauge...

If one cannot tell the difference between a blacked out instrument panel and one that is on and enabled... again, I suggest one doesn't have enough situational awareness to be handling a 2 ton vehicle on public roads. No doubt these are the drivers that consistently report "I didn't see the cyclist..." Or "I didn't see the pedestrian..." Well hell no, ya dummy... you didn't even know your car was on! Sheesh.
In many EVs/hybrids, the instrument cluster triggers on door openings, and will remain on after you have exited the vehicle for a period of time. Many dashboards these days are nothing but LED screens which will remain lit up after ignition off, there is nothing in the traditional sense of "lights". While I agree on the general point of your argument, when it comes to battery operated vehicles, you're dealing with a different beast. But, again, not poisoning yourself from CO at least...
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Old 05-15-18, 08:23 AM
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Part of the problem is a maladapted button.

Take a button from a race car that did ONE THING "START ENGINE". But it's red, and it's round, and it's cool.
(Separate simple toggles (one hooded) control power on, accessory on.)

Put the button into a street car, change the label *slightly* to "START/STOP ENGINE". Forget about those ugly toggles, yuck.

So now the red button is just a change state request which conditionally cycles through a state machine controlling ACCESSORY/POWER OFF, ACCESSORY ON, POWER ON, ENGINE START. The conditions typically are park, brake pedal, push and hold for n seconds, or push repeatedly. (The last two for emergency use, which nobody will practice before an emergency.)

At least it's not swipe to turn on.

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Last edited by mr_bill; 05-15-18 at 02:28 PM.
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