BlackPowder

Hey whats up everyone,

So I m pretty new to vintage bicycles, but Ive always been a huge fan of older, lugged steel road frames. I just googled through lots of Schwinn Paramount pics and read some things, but Im still wondering this:

What was / is the deal with Schwinn Paramount models? If I read this right, they were Schwinns top of the line frames? Was this always the case? For example, sometimes, due to internal changes in a company, the quality of a certain model / product goes down, making it lower quality than older versions..

thanks for the info!

cheers,

Fabian

wrk101

Yes, it was their top bike. In later years, they made several versions of Paramounts, they had an entire series. These bikes were made by others, not Schwinn, and tended to be Asian built). My Series 9C was made by Kestrel, in the USA. That is the exception. My Series 5 was made in Japan, as was the early Series 3 I had.

The older Paramounts (1970s and earlier) have the highest value. Its more about desirability than quality. Is a 1970s Paramount higher quality than my 1986 Waterford Paramount? I am not sure, but in the same condition, the 1970s version will cost A LOT more! And my made by Panasonic, 1992 Series 5? Its worth less. Is it lower quality? I don't think so.

+1 To AZorch: When I was growing up, the Paramount was the "dream" bike. I could not afford one, and ended up with a 1970 Schwinn Continental instead. Being able to buy today, what you could not afford back then, has a certain nostalgia value.

Scooper

For a nice history of Schwinn Paramounts, see the Paramount pages on the Waterford Precision Cycles website.

The Early Years 1938-1958

The Classic Era 1958-1979

Paramounts in Waterford 1980-1994

Paramount serial number dating

AZORCH

For many of us, there were bicycle models that were just out of reach when we were growing up. In the early 70's, for me it was the Peugeot PX-10 and the Schwinn Paramount. I think nostalgia, and a later-in-life ability to acquire some of these formerly unattainables plays a big part in the mystique. I'd still love to find a great early 70's or 60's era Paramount in my size. (I'd also like to stumble across a Herse or Singer, but that's just dreaming!)

noglider 

There's a wikipedia page on the Schwinn company. The company no longer exists. The name exists as a license to use the name.

Back when the Paramounts were made, you could get other bikes made just as well for less money. Nowadays, used Paramounts are still not a great value. It's easy to pick a good bike when you go by name. Unfortunately (or fortunately) that raises its value even more. If you want to be creative and do something interesting, research the bikes made in low volume. People won't know what it is when you ride by on it, but it will be at least as good as a Paramount, and it will be a rare find AND you might pay less for it.

old's'cool

Shhh! It's supposed to be a Secret!

BlackPowder

Hmm I see.

How much would you pay for a 70s paramount frame in good condition? (about)

And also, how does the quality of Schwinn Paramount frames compare to todays top quality, handbuilt lugged frames? About equal?

AZORCH

I'll leave the 70's bike "ride quality" response to one of the many owners here on BF (Kurt? This is your cue, here.) That era bicycle pops up on the iBOB for sale list with some degree of regularity so you can do some price comparisons there. I have owned and ridden several exceptional frames over the years. Near the top of the list are three bikes that I currently own: a Freschi Supreme, my Waterford built Boulder, and my Waterford built Paramount. Ride "quality" is a terribly subjective thing, so let me try to define why I put them in my "top" category: each fits me nearly perfectly, the construction and design is simply stunning, they are stable and absorb the road (but tires have much to do with this too), the steering is intuitive, I'm comfortable riding for long hours at a time. But notice that it is all about "I" ... no matter the bike, it has to be a great fit for the rider in many ways beyond just saddle height and reach. Case in point: A long time ago I owned a Centurion Turbo and when another one fell into my lap a couple years back I was just delighted. It was in my size and in great condition. But try as I might, no amount of adjustment could make it a good, ridable fit for me... guess I changed over the years. So that great frame is now in the hands of another BFer, who I hope is enjoying the crap out of it. The point is this: We love great quality frames here when we get 'em; we love the legendary bikes and great design decisions. But it's all a little meaningless if we wind up with a wall hanger. So check out iBOB for pricing, then go find some bikes and try them out for ride. If there are BFers close to your location, you might find someone with a bike in your size who'd be willing to let you ride it so you can see what the hype is all about.

Scooper

Just my $.02...

1970s Paramounts were built using double-butted Reynolds 531 manganese molybdenum steel, which was the premium tubeset at the time. They were hand brazed by skilled brazers in a special section of the Chicago factory, and the quality was consistent and very good for a production bicycle. I'm the lucky owner of a 1972 P15-9 which I bought from the original owner. IMHO, the ride is superb.

However, I don't think it's fair to compare one of these bikes to a modern bike with a frame built by one of the top builders like Richard Sachs, Dave Kirk, Dave Anderson, Dave Wages, Sacha White, or any of a number of others. For one thing, frames built with modern OS high strength air-hardening steels can be made significantly lighter than 531 frames, and the attention to details lavished on each frame by these top builders take time, and in a production environment the builders are factory workers who don't have the luxury of spending the time to make every detail close to perfection. Buyers of modern custom frames by top tier builders pay a premium price for that perfection.

These two bikes have virtually identical geometry, but the Paramount was built in 1972 while the Waterford, brazed by Dave Wages, was built in 2007. The ride on both bikes is very similar, but because of the lighter weight 953 frame and lighter components, the Waterford is six pounds lighter; it accelerates faster and climbs better.

You should be able to find a 1970s Paramount in excellent condition for $1,000 to $1,500.



On chromed frames and bare stainless frames, the quality of the brazing and cleanup is very evident as voids and file marks show up like a sore thumb. Paint can cover up some otherwise pretty obvious flaws. The brazing and cleanup on both the Paramount and the Waterford are excellent, but the extra time and care taken by Dave Wages to make the brazing on the Waterford virtually flawless is obvious.

1972 chrome P15-9 Paramount:



2007 polished 953 Waterford RS-22:

rootboy 

You have one you're selling **********

zukahn1 

Also one reason the 70's and earlier Paramounts are worth more is they where relatively expensive at the time they where sold about 7 times the price of basic Schwinn road model and several times the price of a nicer import.

Scooper

The 1972 P13-9 Professional Road Racer and P15-9 Deluxe Touring Paramount both retailed for $350, which was price competitive with the Peugeot PX-10 and Raleigh Professional Mk. IV.

AZORCH

Yup, that's about what I recall too. Both bikes were miles out of the reach of my Dad's thrifty wallet — and, of course, both were what I really craved.

3alarmer 

Yet I find PX-10's all around here in the $300-400 range and
the majority of the decent shape Paramounts are in the
$800 and up range.......I just bought a mid 80's Serotta
for less than $600 with Campag New Record on it.

Makes little sense, but having said that, I'd hate to be
forced to part with any of my Paramounts.......

For me, it's the association with my childhood and the
epic American story that was Schwinn. It's like this
Shakespearean tragedy writ large in the world of the
bicycle in America, and the association that these bikes
have with that story.

Also, the chrome one is very.......... shiny.............

silvercreek

My 1978 Paramount P13.

wrk101

Yeah, that green one above speaks for itself. Who would not want that bike over some modern equivalent?

Price difference, while substantial, was "only" 3.5X what that crappy Continental cost. But heck, we could not afford the 25% that a SS cost, so a Paramount was completely out of the question.

BlackPowder

Thanks for the detailed answers guys!

I was wondering about build quality in the first place, but this is interesting, too.

Whats iBOB? Never heard of it..

No, no. I wanted to know how much one would have to pay to be able to get one..

well biked

I agree. Of course, with vintage bikes, it's always fun to try and find a premium bike for less than what you feel it's market value is. And on the other side of the coin, if you have a specific bike you've been looking for over a long time period and suddenly have the opportunity to buy one, you might be more inclined to pay, within reason, full market value or more.

I did just that with my '71 Paramount that I purchased on ebay; I saw it, communicated with the seller extensively, thought about it and thought about it, and finally decided to pull the trigger because it's an extraordinarily clean example, it's from the time period I wanted, it's chrome, and it's my size. The tipping point in the decision-making process for me came when a young co-worker of mine said to me, as I deliberated, "you know, we're getting further and further away from 1971. " This same co-worker, as a Christmas gift, gave me a provenance report from Richard Schwinn (Waterford bicycles) on the bike.

The seller I purchased it from is, I believe, a collector who had never ridden the bike; he knew exactly what he could hope to get for the bike, and he got it from me. I haven't regretted the purchase in any way, to the contrary in fact. FWIW, I paid just north of the upper end figure Scooper mentioned. If I were to sell the bike, which I have no plans to do, I would expect to get more than I paid for it.

3alarmer 

Baloney............you bought it for the same reason I bought mine............very shiny.............

bikingshearer 

I need a cigarette . . . .

AZORCH

Go here.

Scooper

This thread reminded me that with the 1940 track bike project now "rideable" (albeit with some non-original components), I have Paramounts from each era. The 1940 Racer has an Emil Wastyn built frame and is representative of the early pre-war years. The chrome 1972 P15-9 is a nice example of the classic era, and my Ferrari red 1987 Waterford Paramount is from the middle of the Waterford years.

This afternoon, I lined them up and took a family portrait. Front to back: 1940 Paramount track racer, 1972 chrome P15-9, and 1987 Paramount Standard.

silvercreek

The bottom line is that the demise of the Schwinn Paramount was all about manufacturing cost and profit.