What Causes "Burning Knees" and what can I do about it?
11-05-19, 09:21 PM
#76
Member
One suggestion that I didn't see above(or I missed it). Before I ride I liberally roll on some Ice Hot. I use the roll on to keep my hands clean and odor free. This 'embrocation' helps to warm up the knees along with a few minutes of easy pedaling and at 69 years old my knees haven't been a problem. Ben Gay or anything similar works too. I also be sure to focus some of my post ride shower directly on the knees. As stated by a few people above, leg or knee warmers when the temperature is below 70° is important.
Good luck.
Good luck.
11-11-19, 10:05 PM
#77
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yamaguchi City, Japan
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Bikes: Trek Madone 5.2 SL 2007, Look KG386, R022 Re-framed Azzurri Primo, Felt Z5, Trek F7.3 FX
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Q factor as a contributory factor in causing knee pain
Thank you. I will try that or a similar knee-warm-up product.
I also tried the "kneesaver" style pedal axle extenders from China at about 5USD (from ebay, no affiliation). They are clearly too long at plus 20mm, but the right side extender did seem to help. It felt as if whatever part of my knee that was worn down, was not coming into play at all.
This caused me to think
0) My pedal cleat was not set up to point inwards, but something about my riding style encouraged me to point my toes inwards.
1) I think I am toeing inwards partly because I want to increase the q-factor (pedal to pedal distance) : toes in, tibia out.
2) This leads to torque which had me riding bowlegged or knock-kneed (I now think the latter)
3) This was a partial cause (in addition to mashing, age, distance, and temperature) of knee pain.
20mm extension is too long but I think that standard female to male pedal axle extenders have to extend by 20mm at minimum since that is the length of the male pedal thread.
There are longer Dura-ace and Ultegra pedals. The former pedals are 2mm shorter in the standard size so "long" Dura ace "long" are only 2mm longer than standard 105/Ultegra pedals afaik. I believe that Ultegra long are 4mm longer but they seem to be very pricey.
Speedplay and another brand come in varying lengths but they are quite expensive too.
For the time being I am using a 4.5 mm washer -- the square gold enameled steel type used on big bolts for attaching wood beams to concrete foundations -- hoping that my crank will not break.
4.5mm washer for increased Q Factor by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
Since I weigh about 65kg these days, 4kg heavier than my photo, I remain hopeful that the crank will be okay since it can probably withstand a 100-120kg rider. The 4.5 mm wider Q factor feels good but I think that 3mm might be enough and the washer does not need to be this big and heavy! I will experiment with other washers.
I have ordered 10 1mm washers from ebay for about 1USD, but I am not keen on them since the outer diameter is not as wide as the crank. I will find some aluminum washers that are as wide as my cranks for maximum stability.
Addenda (1-4 are causes, 5-8 are palliative, 9 is the cure)
1) Poorly adjusted (front) Dérailleurs destroy Knees
One proximal cause of my knee problems was a poorly adjusted front dérailleur which led to my using the big 53 chainring on mountains for fear of the chain coming off. That increased stomp. The first thing to change down when approaching a hill is the front chainring, imho, and it will need to be changed down to avoid cross chaining or a lot of pressure on knees.
2) Crank too long
The bike that I have had the most problems with is the least timtakked (with the highest, though not high, bars and least saddle to bar drop) so I was confused but as I rode today I noticed that the slight residual twinge occurs when my knees are at the top of their path. I checked the crank length and see that the cranks on this bike are 172.5 mm whereas they are 170 mm on my other two bikes. 2.5mm? When you are revolving 80 times a minute for an hour, the slightly higher range of motion may make a difference. They next time I purchase cranks I will look for some 165s. I happen to have a spare pare of 170s (due to a snapped chainring) so I will swap my 172.5s out.
3) Rotorized Oval Chainrings
Stupid old-kneed fool that I am, I have been a fan of "rotorizing" Shimano Biopace slightly oval chainrings to create a cheap, less aggressive Rotor Q Ring type extra torque on the maximum torque part of the pedalling cycle, at the crank pointed forward position, thereby putting extra pressure on my knees. Biopace are designed (perhaps by old Japanese men, with old knees, at Shimano?) to do the opposite: to reduce the maximum torque at the same position, and increase torque in minimum torque positions. I will put my Biopace back to their designed position which will conversely reduce strain on my knees. I was going to do this anyway buy my torx T30 bit slips in my ratchet wrench set. I have ordered an L shaped T30 wrench from China at about 1.5USD.
4) Saddle too Hard
I switched to rock-hard saddles because I was sick of paying for padding. I did not notice but this encouraged me to stand on my pedals more often and pound on my pedals more than spin due to the desire to reduce weight on my crotch (in my low down position). I am now back to SMP Evolution saddles, the minimal padding of which are still much softer than no padding at all, and I am finding I stay planted on my saddle and spin my feet. I also noticed that padding my bars helped my knees but I could see no explanation so I did not report it. The same reason applies. If your body is being bumped around it is only natural to want to apply downward force with your feet to reduce pressure. and bumps, on butt and hands.
5) High Saddle Position
Raising ones saddle helps to reduce the effect of having a crank that is too long, and stomp (down force on the pedals) in general.
6) Pedal Extenders and Wedges
If I apply a little bit of heel-in torsion to my feel as I am pedalling (clockwise on my right foot, anti-clockwise on my left) that seems to really help or prevent me from toeing-in and cycling knock-kneed, which is what I think hurt my knees. I think now that the pedal extenders are less about correcting Q-factor (my SMP Evolution saddle is for narrow boned people) than providing the space to heel in a little without bumping into the crank. Only a few mm is needed. I feel that if I had a wedge sloping away from my bike, this would also have the same effect -- both the heel-in torsion, and a sloping out wedge are perhaps to prevent a knock-kneed toe in position.
7) Blue Cleats
I used to use yellow SPD-SL cleats with 6 degrees of float, but figure that is poor pedalling form that caused my knee issue so I have moved to blue cleats with 2 degrees for float. That seems to help prevent poor form.
8) Warmth and Awareness via Knee Supporters
As noted above, it is partly low temperatures that are the problem. I still intend to use "Ice Hot" or (UK) Deep Heat type cream but for the time being I have a 100 yen shop knee-supporter for greater knee warmth and awareness of my knee position lest it creeps back to toe-in, knock-kneed.
9) Exercise is the Cure
Wear to the knee meniscus can be cured by pulling on the knee, as occurs in cycling with cleats, so I think that cycling with a proper form should not result in net damage, and cycling using only the upswing should help to repair damaged knees. Any of the first four could have caused knee pain on their own but they didn't when I was younger. The root cause of the problem is not wear but rather imho associated with age and weakness. I stopped climbing the stairs at work about a year ago. My weaken old legs wanted to avoid the top of the pedal cycle (especially with a too high gear, too long cranks, oval chain rings, and lowered, hard saddle) so I toed-in, and pedalled knock kneed using a sort of corkscrew motion swaying my knee out on the upswing. If I had more muscles, both in my main muscles, especially hamstrings, and the little muscles on the sides of my knees I would not have used poor pedalling form to avoid the hardest part of the pedal cycle. So, I have started climbing a local 350m mountain two steps at once, doing squats at the top, and I am back to using the stairs, three at a time, at my place of work. The steps up the mountain are all higgledy piggledy and are therefore good for increasing strength in the small knee side muscles that will hopefully keep my pedalling straight.
My knees have not hurt in the 4 days since I wrote this, but they continued to feel weak.
10) At the same time as moving to a bike with longer cranks I also purchased some cool bright yellow Mavic shoes that were a bit big for me. I think that their extra length and the fact that I tend to (tip-) toe, rather than ankle, extended the effective crank length further. I have now pushed the cleats as far back as possible to a mid-sole position, which helps my knees.
Mid-Sole Cleat Position to Protect Knees by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
11) Weak Knee Stabilizing muscles are the cause, one legged Bulgarian Squats are the Cure
Even better than squats on a mountain top are Bulgarian squats or one legged squats on a mountain, with one unused, rear leg resting on something. The fact that I have been resting the rear unused leg on a wobbly rope rather than a chair, probably helped more because it put more stress on the little muscles around my knee that stabilise the squat and pedal stroke. My muscles ached at first but now, wow, I find I can pedal like days of yore! I highly recommend Bulgarian squats to older knee-fraught cyclists. (I just found today that, I can do one legged squats without the chair. Woo-hoo).
Now will I be able to lose some weight again?
I also tried the "kneesaver" style pedal axle extenders from China at about 5USD (from ebay, no affiliation). They are clearly too long at plus 20mm, but the right side extender did seem to help. It felt as if whatever part of my knee that was worn down, was not coming into play at all.
This caused me to think
0) My pedal cleat was not set up to point inwards, but something about my riding style encouraged me to point my toes inwards.
1) I think I am toeing inwards partly because I want to increase the q-factor (pedal to pedal distance) : toes in, tibia out.
2) This leads to torque which had me riding bowlegged or knock-kneed (I now think the latter)
3) This was a partial cause (in addition to mashing, age, distance, and temperature) of knee pain.
20mm extension is too long but I think that standard female to male pedal axle extenders have to extend by 20mm at minimum since that is the length of the male pedal thread.
There are longer Dura-ace and Ultegra pedals. The former pedals are 2mm shorter in the standard size so "long" Dura ace "long" are only 2mm longer than standard 105/Ultegra pedals afaik. I believe that Ultegra long are 4mm longer but they seem to be very pricey.
Speedplay and another brand come in varying lengths but they are quite expensive too.
For the time being I am using a 4.5 mm washer -- the square gold enameled steel type used on big bolts for attaching wood beams to concrete foundations -- hoping that my crank will not break.
4.5mm washer for increased Q Factor by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
Since I weigh about 65kg these days, 4kg heavier than my photo, I remain hopeful that the crank will be okay since it can probably withstand a 100-120kg rider. The 4.5 mm wider Q factor feels good but I think that 3mm might be enough and the washer does not need to be this big and heavy! I will experiment with other washers.
I have ordered 10 1mm washers from ebay for about 1USD, but I am not keen on them since the outer diameter is not as wide as the crank. I will find some aluminum washers that are as wide as my cranks for maximum stability.
Addenda (1-4 are causes, 5-8 are palliative, 9 is the cure)
1) Poorly adjusted (front) Dérailleurs destroy Knees
One proximal cause of my knee problems was a poorly adjusted front dérailleur which led to my using the big 53 chainring on mountains for fear of the chain coming off. That increased stomp. The first thing to change down when approaching a hill is the front chainring, imho, and it will need to be changed down to avoid cross chaining or a lot of pressure on knees.
2) Crank too long
The bike that I have had the most problems with is the least timtakked (with the highest, though not high, bars and least saddle to bar drop) so I was confused but as I rode today I noticed that the slight residual twinge occurs when my knees are at the top of their path. I checked the crank length and see that the cranks on this bike are 172.5 mm whereas they are 170 mm on my other two bikes. 2.5mm? When you are revolving 80 times a minute for an hour, the slightly higher range of motion may make a difference. They next time I purchase cranks I will look for some 165s. I happen to have a spare pare of 170s (due to a snapped chainring) so I will swap my 172.5s out.
3) Rotorized Oval Chainrings
Stupid old-kneed fool that I am, I have been a fan of "rotorizing" Shimano Biopace slightly oval chainrings to create a cheap, less aggressive Rotor Q Ring type extra torque on the maximum torque part of the pedalling cycle, at the crank pointed forward position, thereby putting extra pressure on my knees. Biopace are designed (perhaps by old Japanese men, with old knees, at Shimano?) to do the opposite: to reduce the maximum torque at the same position, and increase torque in minimum torque positions. I will put my Biopace back to their designed position which will conversely reduce strain on my knees. I was going to do this anyway buy my torx T30 bit slips in my ratchet wrench set. I have ordered an L shaped T30 wrench from China at about 1.5USD.
4) Saddle too Hard
I switched to rock-hard saddles because I was sick of paying for padding. I did not notice but this encouraged me to stand on my pedals more often and pound on my pedals more than spin due to the desire to reduce weight on my crotch (in my low down position). I am now back to SMP Evolution saddles, the minimal padding of which are still much softer than no padding at all, and I am finding I stay planted on my saddle and spin my feet. I also noticed that padding my bars helped my knees but I could see no explanation so I did not report it. The same reason applies. If your body is being bumped around it is only natural to want to apply downward force with your feet to reduce pressure. and bumps, on butt and hands.
5) High Saddle Position
Raising ones saddle helps to reduce the effect of having a crank that is too long, and stomp (down force on the pedals) in general.
6) Pedal Extenders and Wedges
If I apply a little bit of heel-in torsion to my feel as I am pedalling (clockwise on my right foot, anti-clockwise on my left) that seems to really help or prevent me from toeing-in and cycling knock-kneed, which is what I think hurt my knees. I think now that the pedal extenders are less about correcting Q-factor (my SMP Evolution saddle is for narrow boned people) than providing the space to heel in a little without bumping into the crank. Only a few mm is needed. I feel that if I had a wedge sloping away from my bike, this would also have the same effect -- both the heel-in torsion, and a sloping out wedge are perhaps to prevent a knock-kneed toe in position.
7) Blue Cleats
I used to use yellow SPD-SL cleats with 6 degrees of float, but figure that is poor pedalling form that caused my knee issue so I have moved to blue cleats with 2 degrees for float. That seems to help prevent poor form.
8) Warmth and Awareness via Knee Supporters
As noted above, it is partly low temperatures that are the problem. I still intend to use "Ice Hot" or (UK) Deep Heat type cream but for the time being I have a 100 yen shop knee-supporter for greater knee warmth and awareness of my knee position lest it creeps back to toe-in, knock-kneed.
9) Exercise is the Cure
Wear to the knee meniscus can be cured by pulling on the knee, as occurs in cycling with cleats, so I think that cycling with a proper form should not result in net damage, and cycling using only the upswing should help to repair damaged knees. Any of the first four could have caused knee pain on their own but they didn't when I was younger. The root cause of the problem is not wear but rather imho associated with age and weakness. I stopped climbing the stairs at work about a year ago. My weaken old legs wanted to avoid the top of the pedal cycle (especially with a too high gear, too long cranks, oval chain rings, and lowered, hard saddle) so I toed-in, and pedalled knock kneed using a sort of corkscrew motion swaying my knee out on the upswing. If I had more muscles, both in my main muscles, especially hamstrings, and the little muscles on the sides of my knees I would not have used poor pedalling form to avoid the hardest part of the pedal cycle. So, I have started climbing a local 350m mountain two steps at once, doing squats at the top, and I am back to using the stairs, three at a time, at my place of work. The steps up the mountain are all higgledy piggledy and are therefore good for increasing strength in the small knee side muscles that will hopefully keep my pedalling straight.
10) At the same time as moving to a bike with longer cranks I also purchased some cool bright yellow Mavic shoes that were a bit big for me. I think that their extra length and the fact that I tend to (tip-) toe, rather than ankle, extended the effective crank length further. I have now pushed the cleats as far back as possible to a mid-sole position, which helps my knees.
Mid-Sole Cleat Position to Protect Knees by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr
11) Weak Knee Stabilizing muscles are the cause, one legged Bulgarian Squats are the Cure
Even better than squats on a mountain top are Bulgarian squats or one legged squats on a mountain, with one unused, rear leg resting on something. The fact that I have been resting the rear unused leg on a wobbly rope rather than a chair, probably helped more because it put more stress on the little muscles around my knee that stabilise the squat and pedal stroke. My muscles ached at first but now, wow, I find I can pedal like days of yore! I highly recommend Bulgarian squats to older knee-fraught cyclists. (I just found today that, I can do one legged squats without the chair. Woo-hoo).
Now will I be able to lose some weight again?
Last edited by timtak; 05-01-20 at 06:36 PM. Reason: I need to lose weight. I added the washers, cleat position, and Bulgarian squats.
