Burned by my local bike shop on subtle problem with bike
11-30-19, 05:19 PM
#26
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With the bike gone there is no way telling if there actually was a real problem, or what it may have been.
Since OP didn't escalate the problem to corporate, OP cannot really complain here. I for sure would have gone up the ladder if I was 100% sure the bike is faulty and store ignores me, especially for a $4000 bike.
And if the problem only occurs when not holding on to the handlebar, it isn't a real problem. Manufacturers are not required to build a vehicle that can move safely without the rider holding the bars. Same way my car requires to hold onto the steering wheel.
Since OP didn't escalate the problem to corporate, OP cannot really complain here. I for sure would have gone up the ladder if I was 100% sure the bike is faulty and store ignores me, especially for a $4000 bike.
And if the problem only occurs when not holding on to the handlebar, it isn't a real problem. Manufacturers are not required to build a vehicle that can move safely without the rider holding the bars. Same way my car requires to hold onto the steering wheel.
11-30-19, 06:21 PM
#27
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I understand the frustration of the OP - if you’re spending that kind of money on a bike, you want it to be free of issues and you want the LBS to have your back. Granted, some people can’t be satisfied or are riders with little knowledge or sense in regards to how a bike should feel, but I don’t get that impression from the OP. My suggestion requires that you “stoop” to getting a $4k bike from REI (they have Cannondales and Salsas that are in the $4k+ range) - then you will have a full year to sort out the bike or return it for a full refund. [btw, the “stoop” remark was tongue-in-cheek]
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11-30-19, 06:25 PM
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11-30-19, 08:06 PM
#29
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11-30-19, 09:19 PM
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Going to disagree with most here. Yes, the entire issue could be as simple as crown of the road. OTOH the OP presumably has other bikes or remembers other bikes that don't pull.
Most bikes are not perfect out of the box. Most bikes will not do what they should do until a lot of tuning has been done. This one it does sound like an alignment problem. String test is very crude, won't catch much. The store should have done a thorough alignment check and should have walked their customer through the process, making sure he knew what they were doing and what they were looking for.
Giant frames are not particularly accurate. Yes, frames on $4000 bikes can be off. Most will never notice. Most have very low standards. Not a lot of impetus for manufacturers to correct problems that few will ever perceive. Off the top of my head Look and Time have reputations for making accurate frames. There must be others. Giant, Trek, Specialized, Cannondale do not make accurate frames. If customer is very picky custom is a live option. For $4000 it is possible to do a custom and a basic build.
Buy a new bike from the oldest family-owned store possible. Best is an owner who has built frames. No, that is not always possible. Yes, it can be done. My LBS is owned by a man who has built a few hundred steel frames and was part of the team that designed and built the original Kestrel, the first monocoque carbon frame. He has very little business. Consumers want to buy from the big factory owned Trek store. Buy a carbon frame from Ron, you get hours of his time. From a guy who has literally forty years experience with carbon. The other two LBS that get some of my business the owners have also built a few steel frames and know what alignment means.
The bike business in general has extremely low standards. Anyone who has high standards is pushing uphill. You can still get to top of the ill but it won't be easy.
Most bikes are not perfect out of the box. Most bikes will not do what they should do until a lot of tuning has been done. This one it does sound like an alignment problem. String test is very crude, won't catch much. The store should have done a thorough alignment check and should have walked their customer through the process, making sure he knew what they were doing and what they were looking for.
Giant frames are not particularly accurate. Yes, frames on $4000 bikes can be off. Most will never notice. Most have very low standards. Not a lot of impetus for manufacturers to correct problems that few will ever perceive. Off the top of my head Look and Time have reputations for making accurate frames. There must be others. Giant, Trek, Specialized, Cannondale do not make accurate frames. If customer is very picky custom is a live option. For $4000 it is possible to do a custom and a basic build.
Buy a new bike from the oldest family-owned store possible. Best is an owner who has built frames. No, that is not always possible. Yes, it can be done. My LBS is owned by a man who has built a few hundred steel frames and was part of the team that designed and built the original Kestrel, the first monocoque carbon frame. He has very little business. Consumers want to buy from the big factory owned Trek store. Buy a carbon frame from Ron, you get hours of his time. From a guy who has literally forty years experience with carbon. The other two LBS that get some of my business the owners have also built a few steel frames and know what alignment means.
The bike business in general has extremely low standards. Anyone who has high standards is pushing uphill. You can still get to top of the ill but it won't be easy.
Braun's in Kitchener Canada was an old family owned bicycle shop that had an excellent reputation for their sales and service. They have been out of business for a number of years now.
From the Kitchener Record newspaper: "Feb 21, 2014 - The 89-year-old Braun's is Bicycles business, which billed itself as one of Canada's oldest bicycle retailers, has suddenly closed,..."
That closing left a lot of very unhappy customers. I no longer depend on a bicycle shop still being in business a few years after I purchase anything from them. U just hope they are.
Cheers
12-01-19, 06:31 AM
#31
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Thread Starter
The OP isn’t asking for troubleshooting help...the bike has already been traded. The question is how to protect oneself on a future purchase. If the LBS didn’t help make the previous purchase right, I would go to another bike store in the future. One post suggested an extended test ride, which seems like a good idea.
The only other way to protect yourself would be to purchase with a credit card. If there’s a problem with the bike that the store will not correct, your purchase can be disputed with the credit card company. I’d view that as a last resort though, because if a problem is barely perceptible, and the bike store can’t duplicate the problem, they are not going to be pleased when you dispute the purchase. It’s a burned bridge type situation.
The only other way to protect yourself would be to purchase with a credit card. If there’s a problem with the bike that the store will not correct, your purchase can be disputed with the credit card company. I’d view that as a last resort though, because if a problem is barely perceptible, and the bike store can’t duplicate the problem, they are not going to be pleased when you dispute the purchase. It’s a burned bridge type situation.
The new bike I am thinking about is a Trek Madone SLR 9.
These cost about $14,000.
I went to my local Trek store earlier this week and told the salesman I wanted a Madone.
I told him about my previous problem with the misaligned bike.
I said I was worried that I could get stuck with a $14k bike with a problem.
The salesman said that Trek would do their best to correct any problem I had with
a new bike, but there would be a 25% restocking fee if I insisted on returning the bike.
Thinking that maybe I could avoid the restocking fee with a smaller down payment,
I asked him what down payment amount was required for a Madone.
The salesman became evasive. He said I would have to fill out some paperwork before
the down payment amount could be determined.
Some other customers came in the door and the salesman left me, so I walked out.
12-01-19, 07:00 AM
#32
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That's a good start, you've eliminated one shop that isn't interested in your business, given your terms. It might be worthwhile to start a thread asking current owners if they can ride w/o hands.
12-01-19, 07:11 AM
#33
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Just a couple of thoughts:
1) cable housing - stiff cable housing either brake hoses or brake/derailleur cable housing can be stiff and affect the front end handling of a bike. Lengths of hose/or housing I would think are cut for freedom of movement of the steering first, aesthetics second and usually considered good to go with road testing for no-hands stability forgotten until the very end or completely. Upon closer inspection I have been able to subtly improve tracking by pulling out the inner wire then cutting a single housing as little as 1/8” to fine tune the ride a bit.
2) +1 to those who suggested a precision fork alignment test. Just curious - was your Giant a disc or rim brake bike? If it was a rim brake bike, I would think you could simply reposition the axle locknut ever so slightly on one side and re-tighten the quick release skewers then go road test again and repeat until you are satisfied with the tracking. I would imagine the fork on a $4,000 bike isn’t much different than the one on a lower priced bike. What material (were) your fork dropouts made from? If aluminum, a skilled hand could make a few swipes on one side with a round mill file & I,prove things.
1) cable housing - stiff cable housing either brake hoses or brake/derailleur cable housing can be stiff and affect the front end handling of a bike. Lengths of hose/or housing I would think are cut for freedom of movement of the steering first, aesthetics second and usually considered good to go with road testing for no-hands stability forgotten until the very end or completely. Upon closer inspection I have been able to subtly improve tracking by pulling out the inner wire then cutting a single housing as little as 1/8” to fine tune the ride a bit.
2) +1 to those who suggested a precision fork alignment test. Just curious - was your Giant a disc or rim brake bike? If it was a rim brake bike, I would think you could simply reposition the axle locknut ever so slightly on one side and re-tighten the quick release skewers then go road test again and repeat until you are satisfied with the tracking. I would imagine the fork on a $4,000 bike isn’t much different than the one on a lower priced bike. What material (were) your fork dropouts made from? If aluminum, a skilled hand could make a few swipes on one side with a round mill file & I,prove things.
12-01-19, 07:19 AM
#34
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Your idea of using my credit card company to keep the bike shop engaged is a good one. Thanks.
The new bike I am thinking about is a Trek Madone SLR 9.
These cost about $14,000.
I went to my local Trek store earlier this week and told the salesman I wanted a Madone.
I told him about my previous problem with the misaligned bike.
I said I was worried that I could get stuck with a $14k bike with a problem.
The salesman said that Trek would do their best to correct any problem I had with
a new bike, but there would be a 25% restocking fee if I insisted on returning the bike.
Thinking that maybe I could avoid the restocking fee with a smaller down payment,
I asked him what down payment amount was required for a Madone.
The salesman became evasive. He said I would have to fill out some paperwork before
the down payment amount could be determined.
Some other customers came in the door and the salesman left me, so I walked out.
The new bike I am thinking about is a Trek Madone SLR 9.
These cost about $14,000.
I went to my local Trek store earlier this week and told the salesman I wanted a Madone.
I told him about my previous problem with the misaligned bike.
I said I was worried that I could get stuck with a $14k bike with a problem.
The salesman said that Trek would do their best to correct any problem I had with
a new bike, but there would be a 25% restocking fee if I insisted on returning the bike.
Thinking that maybe I could avoid the restocking fee with a smaller down payment,
I asked him what down payment amount was required for a Madone.
The salesman became evasive. He said I would have to fill out some paperwork before
the down payment amount could be determined.
Some other customers came in the door and the salesman left me, so I walked out.
Note, at 69yo I tend to be more cautious than when younger so if I can still mess with zippers, food, texting(I know so don't holler) while no-hands the handling can't be that bad.
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12-01-19, 08:45 AM
#35
Senior Member
That only works if the old family owned bike shop stays in business after you've bought your bike from them.
Braun's in Kitchener Canada was an old family owned bicycle shop that had an excellent reputation for their sales and service. They have been out of business for a number of years now.
From the Kitchener Record newspaper: "Feb 21, 2014 - The 89-year-old Braun's is Bicycles business, which billed itself as one of Canada's oldest bicycle retailers, has suddenly closed,..."
That closing left a lot of very unhappy customers. I no longer depend on a bicycle shop still being in business a few years after I purchase anything from them. U just hope they are.
Cheers
Braun's in Kitchener Canada was an old family owned bicycle shop that had an excellent reputation for their sales and service. They have been out of business for a number of years now.
From the Kitchener Record newspaper: "Feb 21, 2014 - The 89-year-old Braun's is Bicycles business, which billed itself as one of Canada's oldest bicycle retailers, has suddenly closed,..."
That closing left a lot of very unhappy customers. I no longer depend on a bicycle shop still being in business a few years after I purchase anything from them. U just hope they are.
Cheers
Other issues raised above---Bikes steering badly because of bad cabling? Sure, that happens. Only possible in a world where very bad mechanics can keep a job and be allowed to work on high end bikes. Store that allows that to happen is in process of going out of business.
The customer who has $14K for a topline Emonda would be far better served by buying custom. Get a Firefly, Tyler is not letting a bike out the door that isn't straight. Basic reason to buy a name-brand bike at that price level is you are just in love with the advertising. If transactions with corporations make you feel better than coping face to face with individuals go ahead and buy the corp bike.
12-01-19, 09:06 AM
#36
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Your idea of using my credit card company to keep the bike shop engaged is a good one. Thanks.
The new bike I am thinking about is a Trek Madone SLR 9.
These cost about $14,000.
I went to my local Trek store earlier this week and told the salesman I wanted a Madone.
I told him about my previous problem with the misaligned bike.
I said I was worried that I could get stuck with a $14k bike with a problem.
The salesman said that Trek would do their best to correct any problem I had with
a new bike, but there would be a 25% restocking fee if I insisted on returning the bike.
Thinking that maybe I could avoid the restocking fee with a smaller down payment,
I asked him what down payment amount was required for a Madone.
The salesman became evasive. He said I would have to fill out some paperwork before
the down payment amount could be determined.
Some other customers came in the door and the salesman left me, so I walked out.
The new bike I am thinking about is a Trek Madone SLR 9.
These cost about $14,000.
I went to my local Trek store earlier this week and told the salesman I wanted a Madone.
I told him about my previous problem with the misaligned bike.
I said I was worried that I could get stuck with a $14k bike with a problem.
The salesman said that Trek would do their best to correct any problem I had with
a new bike, but there would be a 25% restocking fee if I insisted on returning the bike.
Thinking that maybe I could avoid the restocking fee with a smaller down payment,
I asked him what down payment amount was required for a Madone.
The salesman became evasive. He said I would have to fill out some paperwork before
the down payment amount could be determined.
Some other customers came in the door and the salesman left me, so I walked out.
2. It sounds like you need to find a new bike store.
12-01-19, 09:35 AM
#37
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I was on board with the OP after the opening post. A bike should track straight when riding no hands, especially if new. All mine do.
Then I became suspicious when he/she went from a $4000 bike to considering a $14,000 bike, with only 3 posts total over a year since joining BF. Kinda makes one wonder... although I do enjoy a good troll thread as much as the next guy, so carry on!
Then I became suspicious when he/she went from a $4000 bike to considering a $14,000 bike, with only 3 posts total over a year since joining BF. Kinda makes one wonder... although I do enjoy a good troll thread as much as the next guy, so carry on!
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12-01-19, 09:50 AM
#38
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From $ 4000 bike to $ 14000 bike, the only thing I see being burned here is money.
12-01-19, 10:16 AM
#39
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The new bike I am thinking about is a Trek Madone SLR 9.
These cost about $14,000.
I went to my local Trek store earlier this week and told the salesman I wanted a Madone.
I told him about my previous problem with the misaligned bike.
I said I was worried that I could get stuck with a $14k bike with a problem.
The salesman said that Trek would do their best to correct any problem I had with
a new bike, but there would be a 25% restocking fee if I insisted on returning the bike.
Thinking that maybe I could avoid the restocking fee with a smaller down payment,
I asked him what down payment amount was required for a Madone.
The salesman became evasive. He said I would have to fill out some paperwork before
the down payment amount could be determined.
Some other customers came in the door and the salesman left me, so I walked out.
In my industry, special order items usually require a credit check, 50% down, and a contract before the item will be built. Even if paying "cash" in full upon delivery.
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12-01-19, 11:39 AM
#40
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Well, yes. When the only places left to buy a bike are Amazon, Walmart, and just maybe the Trek SuperStore expect quality to crash even further.
Other issues raised above---Bikes steering badly because of bad cabling? Sure, that happens. Only possible in a world where very bad mechanics can keep a job and be allowed to work on high end bikes. Store that allows that to happen is in process of going out of business.
The customer who has $14K for a topline Emonda would be far better served by buying custom. Get a Firefly, Tyler is not letting a bike out the door that isn't straight. Basic reason to buy a name-brand bike at that price level is you are just in love with the advertising. If transactions with corporations make you feel better than coping face to face with individuals go ahead and buy the corp bike.
Other issues raised above---Bikes steering badly because of bad cabling? Sure, that happens. Only possible in a world where very bad mechanics can keep a job and be allowed to work on high end bikes. Store that allows that to happen is in process of going out of business.
The customer who has $14K for a topline Emonda would be far better served by buying custom. Get a Firefly, Tyler is not letting a bike out the door that isn't straight. Basic reason to buy a name-brand bike at that price level is you are just in love with the advertising. If transactions with corporations make you feel better than coping face to face with individuals go ahead and buy the corp bike.
Are there any custom aero bike builders?
I didn't realize this was an option.
12-01-19, 12:42 PM
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12-01-19, 12:47 PM
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12-01-19, 12:56 PM
#43
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The OP isn’t asking for troubleshooting help...the bike has already been traded. The question is how to protect oneself on a future purchase. If the LBS didn’t help make the previous purchase right, I would go to another bike store in the future. One post suggested an extended test ride, which seems like a good idea.
The only other way to protect yourself would be to purchase with a credit card. If there’s a problem with the bike that the store will not correct, your purchase can be disputed with the credit card company. I’d view that as a last resort though, because if a problem is barely perceptible, and the bike store can’t duplicate the problem, they are not going to be pleased when you dispute the purchase. It’s a burned bridge type situation.
The only other way to protect yourself would be to purchase with a credit card. If there’s a problem with the bike that the store will not correct, your purchase can be disputed with the credit card company. I’d view that as a last resort though, because if a problem is barely perceptible, and the bike store can’t duplicate the problem, they are not going to be pleased when you dispute the purchase. It’s a burned bridge type situation.
^ I agree
I think the First step in protection is to see how well a shop communicates.
This thread and the replies are a prime example of where shops fail! Find a shop that genuinely listens to you, and cares about the questions you ask.
Listening/reading is a lost art/skill
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12-01-19, 02:17 PM
#44
Senior Member
You want aero carbon. That limits it a lot. Without doing any research my only guess would be Parlee. RZ-7 model I think. The aero is Asian made, may have some custom options. Ask them. Either way quality control in Beverly, Massachusetts is comprehensive. At the price you're talking they will kiss your feet. Previously mentioned Time and Look frames are available aero, not custom. They are made in France and quality is worlds past Giant or Trek.
Custom builders in carbon, off the top of my head, no aero option, Firefly, Landshark, Calfee. There have to be many more. Firefly mentioned previously because they are a maximum bragging rights fashionista sort of place. Good bikes regardless of the PR.
If you have never had a high end bike before it might make more sense to skip the aero part. Unless you are much faster than seems likely aero is pretty meaningless. How much time do you spend above 50kph? Even above 40kph? Downhill or in a pack does not count. Basic no problems high quality bikes for the well heeled IMO would be Seven or Moots. If you don't have a mechanic or a firm relationship with an LBS buy complete fully assembled bikes. And then get to know a bike shop.
12-01-19, 04:04 PM
#45
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^ I agree
I think the First step in protection is to see how well a shop communicates.
This thread and the replies are a prime example of where shops fail! Find a shop that genuinely listens to you, and cares about the questions you ask.
Listening/reading is a lost art/skill
I think the First step in protection is to see how well a shop communicates.
This thread and the replies are a prime example of where shops fail! Find a shop that genuinely listens to you, and cares about the questions you ask.
Listening/reading is a lost art/skill
12-01-19, 04:10 PM
#46
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standards, morals, ethics, honesty, are not just things you buy....
I am not shallow enough to base my LBS relationship on the amount of money I give them.
Edit:
Give them not only your bike purchases but also the little one like tubes and lube. I think it’s difficult to expect a bike store to be heavily invested in a customer that shows up out f the blue for a very low margin item (bike purchase) and then they never see again.
Last edited by Metieval; 12-02-19 at 05:23 AM.
12-01-19, 04:29 PM
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I've got 10 bikes, and every one of them will go straight as a string when I turn loose of the bars. I've done right at 55,000 miles in the past 5 years, and although all 10 of my bikes probably add up to $14,000, I would never in a million years think of spending that on one bike.To each his own, but unless you are getting paid to ride, you don't need a $14,000 bike. Once again, my opinion.
12-01-19, 04:49 PM
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You need help spending money. Do I get a commission on this?
You want aero carbon. That limits it a lot. Without doing any research my only guess would be Parlee. RZ-7 model I think. The aero is Asian made, may have some custom options. Ask them. Either way quality control in Beverly, Massachusetts is comprehensive. At the price you're talking they will kiss your feet. Previously mentioned Time and Look frames are available aero, not custom. They are made in France and quality is worlds past Giant or Trek.
Custom builders in carbon, off the top of my head, no aero option, Firefly, Landshark, Calfee. There have to be many more. Firefly mentioned previously because they are a maximum bragging rights fashionista sort of place. Good bikes regardless of the PR.
If you have never had a high end bike before it might make more sense to skip the aero part. Unless you are much faster than seems likely aero is pretty meaningless. How much time do you spend above 50kph? Even above 40kph? Downhill or in a pack does not count. Basic no problems high quality bikes for the well heeled IMO would be Seven or Moots. If you don't have a mechanic or a firm relationship with an LBS buy complete fully assembled bikes. And then get to know a bike shop.
You want aero carbon. That limits it a lot. Without doing any research my only guess would be Parlee. RZ-7 model I think. The aero is Asian made, may have some custom options. Ask them. Either way quality control in Beverly, Massachusetts is comprehensive. At the price you're talking they will kiss your feet. Previously mentioned Time and Look frames are available aero, not custom. They are made in France and quality is worlds past Giant or Trek.
Custom builders in carbon, off the top of my head, no aero option, Firefly, Landshark, Calfee. There have to be many more. Firefly mentioned previously because they are a maximum bragging rights fashionista sort of place. Good bikes regardless of the PR.
If you have never had a high end bike before it might make more sense to skip the aero part. Unless you are much faster than seems likely aero is pretty meaningless. How much time do you spend above 50kph? Even above 40kph? Downhill or in a pack does not count. Basic no problems high quality bikes for the well heeled IMO would be Seven or Moots. If you don't have a mechanic or a firm relationship with an LBS buy complete fully assembled bikes. And then get to know a bike shop.
<crickets>
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12-02-19, 02:31 AM
#49
Droid on a mission
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JoeTBM (The Bike Man) - I'm a black & white type of guy, the only gray in my life is the hair on my head
www.TheBikeMenOfFlaglerCounty.com
JoeTBM (The Bike Man) - I'm a black & white type of guy, the only gray in my life is the hair on my head
www.TheBikeMenOfFlaglerCounty.com
12-02-19, 07:37 AM
#50
Zip tie Karen
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Too much money. Too little sense.
Oh, and the answer to the first bike's issue is a headset with the bearing pre-load set too tightly. You're welcome.
Oh, and the answer to the first bike's issue is a headset with the bearing pre-load set too tightly. You're welcome.