Training for sustained climbs?
#51
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
Not very often, but there have been times I wished I could ride up and meet somebody with a cat to go back down. Most of the time that's crazy talk though.
#52
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
An experiment for the reader (may be gedanken); ride up a moderate grade, 5-6%, in a comfortable gear. Stop pedaling, coast, and note how you slow down. Now repeat riding the same speed on a level road. Was there a difference in how fast you slowed down? Now do this again on the hill and level road, but in a different gear, harder or easier, it doesn’t matter. Did changing gear affect how fast you slowed down?
Some of us are concerned with power output, and then there's you concerned with how quickly you slow down or how hard you can press on the pedals going downhill. What's that you said about fallacies?
Brakes must be a mind-bender.
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
At times to the detriment, as now I won't even ride without a powermeter!
Likes For rubiksoval:
#54
Senior Member
Then you might want to familiarize yourself with quadrant analysis. It's not new. It was developed by Andy Coggan over a decade ago. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAK Then you can think about how different inertial loads will move preferred force or cadence along the isopower hyperbolas.
#55
Full Member
The challenges of training for hills on flats is where the power comes from, and how momentum affects power output.
The glutes are used for sustained climbing, and it can be difficult to engage them on the flats. Quads & hip flexors are used more on the flats.
The momentum you get on flat roads makes it difficult to simulate hills, on the hills you feel immediate resistance when you lose momentum, not so on the flats.
Around here there aren't many long climbs, but plenty of areas to do repeats, which is what I do, along with hilly rides on Zwift.
It's also harder to maintain a given wattage on the flats than it is on the hills.
The glutes are used for sustained climbing, and it can be difficult to engage them on the flats. Quads & hip flexors are used more on the flats.
The momentum you get on flat roads makes it difficult to simulate hills, on the hills you feel immediate resistance when you lose momentum, not so on the flats.
Around here there aren't many long climbs, but plenty of areas to do repeats, which is what I do, along with hilly rides on Zwift.
It's also harder to maintain a given wattage on the flats than it is on the hills.
Likes For Dancing Skeleton:
#56
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
Then you might want to familiarize yourself with quadrant analysis. It's not new. It was developed by Andy Coggan over a decade ago. https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAK Then you can think about how different inertial loads will move preferred force or cadence along the isopower hyperbolas.
All your multiple posts and obtuse comments and you still can't quite get your head around the fact that you put out power on the flats and you put out power on the climbs, and putting out power on either affords the ability to put out power on the other.
Bummer, huh? But just for you.
#57
Senior Member
Just as you can't comprehend there are three principles of training: progressive overload, individuality, specificity; and continue to pretend the third doesn't matter.
#58
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
I doubt your position differences are so extreme that you're switching to entirely different muscle groups when the road points upwards, but even if you had a foot long saddle or something and that were the case, it's again something easily addressed by simply holding a position. I'm not using any different muscle groups when I climb versus when I ride on the flat, though I may hold my head/shoulders lower in the latter position.
#59
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
For some reason I thought you were more respectable than that, but hey, it's a day for learning I guess.
#60
Full Member
I doubt your position differences are so extreme that you're switching to entirely different muscle groups when the road points upwards, but even if you had a foot long saddle or something and that were the case, it's again something easily addressed by simply holding a position. I'm not using any different muscle groups when I climb versus when I ride on the flat, though I may hold my head/shoulders lower in the latter position.
Once I learned how to do this, my climbing improved quite a bit.
I also can hold a much higher wattage on the hills than I can on the flats, I've done hillclimb races holding a wattage for over an hour that I'd have zero chance of holding for the same amount of time on a flat course.
Likes For Dancing Skeleton:
#61
meh
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hopkins, MN
Posts: 4,704
Bikes: 23 Cutthroat, 21 CoMotion Java; 21 Bianchi Infinito; 15 Surly Pugsley; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 1,013 Times
in
519 Posts
I'm a flatlander (Minnesota) - a few things that work well for me:
Here to point, the biggest climb I've found myself riding was back in March - 1,200 ft climb averaging 5% with kicks over 15% and mixed surfaces (gravel & paved). I had no issues climbing, and could have kept climbing if I had more time and more hill to climb. This climb started at sea level, so I didn't have to deal with thin air.
I have my sights set on climbing Mauna Kea (13,800 ft climb from sea level). Prior to that challenging, I'll drive to Estes Park to ride Old Fall River Road (5,000 ft climb summit at 12,000 ft) to train at altitude.
- Long efforts on the trainer (I never coast on the trainer),
- Long efforts on rail-trails - great with power meter, but without power meter, just keep the heart rate in Z3-Z4 - no coasting
- Ride steep local climbs seated to train yourself for the body position while climbing
Here to point, the biggest climb I've found myself riding was back in March - 1,200 ft climb averaging 5% with kicks over 15% and mixed surfaces (gravel & paved). I had no issues climbing, and could have kept climbing if I had more time and more hill to climb. This climb started at sea level, so I didn't have to deal with thin air.
I have my sights set on climbing Mauna Kea (13,800 ft climb from sea level). Prior to that challenging, I'll drive to Estes Park to ride Old Fall River Road (5,000 ft climb summit at 12,000 ft) to train at altitude.
#62
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
Just to go along with this for a second, if you found a way to engage a muscle group the equates to a significant performance advantage, why would you only use it on one type of terrain?
#63
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
The one thing I know I'm missing is riding in thin air ... if you're going to high elevations, that'll come down to good cardio conditioning.
I have my sights set on climbing Mauna Kea (13,800 ft climb from sea level). Prior to that challenging, I'll drive to Estes Park to ride Old Fall River Road (5,000 ft climb summit at 12,000 ft) to train at altitude.
I have my sights set on climbing Mauna Kea (13,800 ft climb from sea level). Prior to that challenging, I'll drive to Estes Park to ride Old Fall River Road (5,000 ft climb summit at 12,000 ft) to train at altitude.
Response to altitude doesn't really have much to do with cardio conditioning. Even fit people can be reduced to sloth-like movements if they go high enough.
Riding up a mountain isn't "training at atltitude" and isn't going to really affect your performance at altitude. Spending significant time at altitude does help with acclimation, but then you're talking days/weeks.
Likes For rubiksoval:
#64
meh
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hopkins, MN
Posts: 4,704
Bikes: 23 Cutthroat, 21 CoMotion Java; 21 Bianchi Infinito; 15 Surly Pugsley; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 1,013 Times
in
519 Posts
Response to altitude doesn't really have much to do with cardio conditioning. Even fit people can be reduced to sloth-like movements if they go high enough.
Riding up a mountain isn't "training at atltitude" and isn't going to really affect your performance at altitude. Spending significant time at altitude does help with acclimation, but then you're talking days/weeks.
Riding up a mountain isn't "training at atltitude" and isn't going to really affect your performance at altitude. Spending significant time at altitude does help with acclimation, but then you're talking days/weeks.
#65
Full Member
It's also hard to have bursts of acceleration, which can be needed on the flats, with glutes, the quads are used for this.
I'm referring to sustained climbing.
I think that this also leads into what type of rider you are. I can climb much better than I can ride fast on flat ground.
There are people who I ride with, who can easily average 20-21 MPH on flattish ground for 50+ miles,which would be really difficult for me.
But they can't keep up with me on hills, especially sustained climbs of over 1/2 a mile.
Last edited by Dancing Skeleton; 08-25-20 at 08:17 AM.
#66
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
Likes For WhyFi:
#67
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,302
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8287 Post(s)
Liked 9,064 Times
in
4,483 Posts
I think there is some genetic component involved, along with acclimation, of course. I've also read that a person living at low altitude traveling to high altitude for an event could be better off just going the day of instead of 2 or 3 days before because it takes more than 2 or 3 days to adjust.
I used to live at 6000 feet and I've been fine at 9000 doing mtb climbs even after I moved back to 1500 feet. Once in a while the altitude will get me, one time at 10,000 when I had climbed up from 3000 and that 10K mark just knocked me back. Another time it hit me at 8500 and I felt awful until I went back down. This was quite a surprise because it was the first time I got that sick below 10K.
Some friends hiked Mt Whitney and the fittest aerobic junkie there, the guy who outclimbs everyone on the bike, got so sick the others had to help him back down for a few thousand feet.
I guess what I'm trying to say is there are many possible factors and it can be unpredictable and I appreciate the input of others who like to get high.
Likes For big john:
#68
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Posts: 25,302
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8287 Post(s)
Liked 9,064 Times
in
4,483 Posts
#70
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 17,992
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10442 Post(s)
Liked 11,916 Times
in
6,102 Posts
So I go up one and down the other.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#71
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,955
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3957 Post(s)
Liked 7,310 Times
in
2,950 Posts
Likes For tomato coupe:
#72
pan y agua
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 31,305
Bikes: Willier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Calfee Dragonfly tandem, Calfee Adventure tandem; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Motebecanne Phantom Cross; Schwinn Paramount Track bike
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1450 Post(s)
Liked 731 Times
in
374 Posts
Also doing the actual climbing you learn things about your gearing your bike fit. How much to sit, how much to stand, what cadence works for you. There’s also a psychological and confidence aspect.
Sustained climbs are about mostly about power to weight ratio, and I agree with you that it doesn’t matter if that’s on a hill or the flats. However, I think there are some additional elements beyond power to weight that add into, and practice actually climbing helps,with those.
So you can do quite well climbing with only training on the flats. That doesn’t mean there is no advantage in doing some training, practice
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
#73
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
position the bike is a bit different, little core muscles get worked a bit different.
Also doing the actual climbing you learn things about your gearing your bike fit. How much to sit, how much to stand, what cadence works for you. There’s also a psychological and confidence aspect.
Sustained climbs are about mostly about power to weight ratio, and I agree with you that it doesn’t matter if that’s on a hill or the flats. However, I think there are some additional elements beyond power to weight that add into, and practice actually climbing helps,with those.
So you can do quite well climbing with only training on the flats. That doesn’t mean there is no advantage in doing some training, practice
Also doing the actual climbing you learn things about your gearing your bike fit. How much to sit, how much to stand, what cadence works for you. There’s also a psychological and confidence aspect.
Sustained climbs are about mostly about power to weight ratio, and I agree with you that it doesn’t matter if that’s on a hill or the flats. However, I think there are some additional elements beyond power to weight that add into, and practice actually climbing helps,with those.
So you can do quite well climbing with only training on the flats. That doesn’t mean there is no advantage in doing some training, practice
You need power. That's what will get you up the mountain. Not skills, not practice, not riding it 14 days in a row. You can train that power on the flats, in the wind, on the trainer, on the rollers; however you need to do so.
If it takes me 300 watts to ride up a particular mountain in 25 minutes, I can prepare for that by going out and building up to riding 300 watts for 25 minutes.
And then? Then I'll ride up the mountain at 300 watts for 25 minutes.
This is about as simple a thing as it can be.
There's absolutely zero need for "practice". It's not a skills issue, it's a power issue (and maybe an equipment issue if you don't have the gearing necessary to maintain the cadence you prefer).
Now coming back down the mountain? That may require some practice if you're not a very good descender...
#74
Full Member
Agree 100%.
#75
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
You're physiologically capable of holding 4w/kg on flat ground, too. You just don't, probably because you don't train to.
Likes For rubiksoval: