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Can Wolber Profil 20's handle a 2 cross or radial spoke pattern, stregnth-wise??

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Can Wolber Profil 20's handle a 2 cross or radial spoke pattern, stregnth-wise??

Old 06-07-10, 02:47 PM
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Chombi
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Can Wolber Profil 20's handle a 2 cross or radial spoke pattern, stregnth-wise??

I'm psyching up and getting ready to build up my next wheelset, and I'm getting into uncharted (for me) territory with what I'm planning.
The hubs will be the Stronglight Delta 28H, ones I recently posted on this forum and Velobase, and the rims will be Wolber Profil 20's, 28H, 700Cs ("Titane Chrome Magnesium").
I've been biking with wheels of mostly 36 and 32 spoke, 3 cross pattern all my life and after gingerly crossing the 36/32 spoke line back in the 80's (really thought the 32 spoke wheels would eventually kill me), I'm now faced with the same situation on what is doable for a a bike that will do enough miles but not raced.
Has anyone experienced any cracking with the Wolber Profil 20 rims at 2 cross spoke pattern? Should I dare and try to do a radial front pattern with a 2 cross rear wheel at 28 spokes? Will the materials on the said classic hubs and rims be up to tht job, specially with the rims just having single eyelets? Please advise.
BTW, I'm usually pretty easy on wheels (avoids all ruts and potholes as much as possible. Only suffered one serious ding on a front wheel since I started biking in the 80's), and my weight hovers around 155 - 160#

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Old 06-07-10, 02:59 PM
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If the rims are hard anodized the answer is a quick, simple.....NO.

If the rims are NOT hard anodized the answer is a quick simple.....go for it, you only live once. Enjoy the build, enjoy the ride.
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Old 06-07-10, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by miamijim
If the rims are hard anodized the answer is a quick, simple.....NO.

If the rims are NOT hard anodized the answer is a quick simple.....go for it, you only live once. Enjoy the build, enjoy the ride.
They are hard anodized (dark bronze) as marked right on the Wolber wheel decals. So your suggestion is to stay with at least 3 cross pattern for both front and rear (no to radial, but also no to 2 cross?)? I guess the theory is that the hard anodizing + the single eylete construction actually makes them much more prone to cracking??

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Old 06-07-10, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Chombi
I guess the theory is that the hard anodizing + the single eylete construction actually makes them much more prone to cracking??

Chombi
That is correct and I would venture to say its fact versus theory. 3X is obviously OK. Aside from aesthetics and
'because I want to' there's no reason for 2X.
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Old 06-09-10, 07:51 PM
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Just an update,
The NOS Profil 20 rimss finally got to me this afternoon from France. Beautiful rims they are but just a bit on the heavy side which I think is pretty much normal with most Aero profile rims, because of the added rim material compared to box section ones.
I was expecting to see some sort of small eylette on the inside of the rim where the nipples will sit on, but I'm surprised to see that there are just holes but nothing else, so the nipple heads will sit directly on the rim material. The holes do not even seem to be chamfered to ease the edge of the hole for the nipple head to sit in. Is this normal? Do I indeed not need anything else and let the nipple heads just sit on the small inner holes directly with no washers or anything??

Chombi

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Old 06-09-10, 08:04 PM
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ABSOLUTELY!!!

the wolber tx-profil is a beefy rim, plenty of metal to go radial...i run a 28-hole radial up front, 32-hole 3-cross in back. no problem at all. i wouldnt hesitate to even go radial non-drive and lower crossing on the drive-side in back, too.

stay away from aluminum nipples and you'll have no issues w/ the spoke holes.
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Old 06-11-10, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by wallymann
ABSOLUTELY!!!

the wolber tx-profil is a beefy rim, plenty of metal to go radial...i run a 28-hole radial up front, 32-hole 3-cross in back. no problem at all. i wouldnt hesitate to even go radial non-drive and lower crossing on the drive-side in back, too.

stay away from aluminum nipples and you'll have no issues w/ the spoke holes.
That's what I was thinking when I looked into the rims, that the rim's section will most likely be beefy enoung to maybe handle at least a two cross pattern. What still concerns me a bit is the fact that there are no eyelettes on the rims as I had discovered when I got them a couple of days ago. I was expecting some form of eyelette on the inside to reinforce it a bit, but I only see raw holes instead so I'm not even sure how the spoke nipples will sit in there without any sort of binding when the tension is put on them.
In terms of spoke pattern, I might just go with 2 cross up front (I don't think I'm light enough to be comfortable with tryng out a radial with these older designed rims and hubs.) and maybe two or three cross at back, with oval section spokes from DT or Wheelsmith (Hoshis "s" ended bladed spokes as a last resort) so I avoid having to slot the hubs. I'll drop by a couple of my LBSs today to see what they think too.
Thanks for the input!
I'll post up any new development on this "Tout French" (except for spokes) wheel build as it happens.

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Old 06-13-10, 01:32 PM
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Profil 20 is tubular right? Seemed like it was. Pretty beefy tubular for the day, aero section, no eyelets. The profil 18 was the racer rims, the 20 stronger and deeper. I see no reason not too do what ever 0 or 2 cross. Radials just not that good IMO when you can do 2x and get better.
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Old 06-13-10, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Issac
Profil 20 is tubular right? Seemed like it was. Pretty beefy tubular for the day, aero section, no eyelets. The profil 18 was the racer rims, the 20 stronger and deeper. I see no reason not too do what ever 0 or 2 cross. Radials just not that good IMO when you can do 2x and get better.
Yes the Profil 20's were the slightly beefier tubular aero rims from Wolber. At 19mm wide, they still are pretty narrow and the deletion of eyelettes definitely helped keep off some weight. The 18s did not carry as deep an aero section as many also considered their shape as "semi-aero". Many also considered the 18s as very very narrow rims, so they might be more at the edge of rim design, in terms of stregnth and weight. What I really like from the 20's though is they sure give a more full aero look to a wheel with their deep profile.
I bought spokes for the wheelset build up this weekend from my LBS who I deal with regularly for my classic bike projects. The owner/manager agreed that the Profil 20s are beefy enough to handle 2 cross without any problems, so I'm doing 2 cros on both front and rears. One thing that did surprise me though, were the cost of are spokes. Went for the oval sectioned "Aerolite" spokes from DT, a company that I had trusted through all the years I've been biking. Real nice stuff, but dang, they cost a lot of money.....but I went for them anyway. I figure I might as well do the build the way I personally would want to do it and go with the spokes I feel most comfortable with. Also confirmed with the LBS owner that it would be OK to run with nipples directly on the eyelette-less spoke holes on the rims. He noted that I could add on washers if I want to, but he does not think it's neccessary as he showed me a few high priced wheelsets he had that doesn't too. We did agree to pass on the aluminum nipples that the Aerolite spokes comes with and go instead with brass nipples as they will less like tend to bind up against the aluminum rim holes when applying tension to the rims.
I'll post up some updates on the wheel build as it happens.

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Old 06-14-10, 06:45 AM
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The Profil 18's were hot rims and not delicate. They had a unique colored finish and were specialty indeed- Built quite a few of these rim at one time, and they were for 18-20mm tire width only. There was also the really hot Assos rim which kinda eclipsed them all, and a Sun 17 rim which was tiny and drillled backwards on offsets of holes (a mistake).

Slightly larger were the Araya, Saavedra, and the Wolber P. 20 and Matrix ISO. Those were hot times for rim design because these rims were light, fast, and fairly strong when you put them up against the Ergals and the 280's, Sludis. I think people get these big fat pig rims today that are aero and don't realize how good a well built tubular like these above can be, for a fraction of the price. I mean if your racing and you have some veloflex records on a nice oldie tubular rim....its hard to say the new stuff is an improvement as you roll.

The Araya, i believe used rim washers, the Saavedra's did also (you had to clean up and orientate). But I don't ever remember using rim washers in the Wolbers. The rim bed plays a big part in it all and how the nipple seats. Suns were light rims, nearly a copy of the profil 18, but they had to be touched up with a file and took some extra work. the Wolbers in the 18 and 20 were real sweet rims. Good for you. I have rim washers if you feel the need, but they are not really structural by the way, they mostly gave a harder surface.
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Old 06-14-10, 06:46 AM
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Oh and I think its absolutly crazy what spokes are selling for now. I get vintage spokes on ebay and they work just fine and a fraction of the price.
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Old 06-14-10, 08:01 AM
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The only Profile rim that used a 'washer' was the profile A. I have a pair of NOS rims which came
to me without the washers and they are next to impossible to find.
I agree wholeheartedly with Issac, a good box section tubular rim trumps a 'modern'
rim most of the time.

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