livedarklions

I think we're agreeing completely. This thing is going to need a big heavy battery or a nuclear reactor.

If they do make it w (big if), I don't think it will be allowed in competition because it would probably be easier to motor dope than a chain drive.

tomato coupe

Plugging into a wall socket doesn't suggest anything, except that maybe the designers don't like to replace batteries.

livedarklions

The major reason that tech progress in bicycles can only be incremental is because there's really no way to redesign the motor. No, ebikes don't count. Different kind of machine.

livedarklions

Either those engineers are really lazy, or the batteries would have to be changed a lot. The latter explanation, which is a lot more likely, suggests a lot.

spdntrxi

it is... if you have more then 100w you are likely to break it.

sdmc530

Now where did i put that old flux capacitor?


when this first came out i was was really hoping this would come to fruition. Even though a salable market production model was still a unlikely reality however now after seeing this thing for two show seasons and no real world testing it seems like a joke to me and am just tired of hearing about it. It will very unlikely hit the open market even at an insane price. Just make it go away!!!

tomato coupe

Since you're not an engineer, I'll assume you've never been involved in product development on the technical side. The use of a power supply instead of a battery implies nothing.

Wileyrat

I strongly suspect we're looking at the cycling equivalent of a concept car. Interesting idea, but something that we'll never see in production.

livedarklions

When you're watching the video they're providing, you aren't watching "product development", you're watching PR. They have every reason from that standpoint to make the thing look self-contained, and they couldn't. That's significant.

If this was really a development of a potentially revolutionary technology, you know what we'd be seeing? Nothing. This is promotional vaporware.

Stormsedge

All right, you made me look (at their website). Interesting stuff, but as I consider myself in search of the last 30% (and likely will be for my remaining days on earth)(I'm slow), a potential 1% mechanical/aerodynamic advantage is not worth the $$$s. Seems like I've seen photos of very early bicycles with shaft drive (??), but I don't have time to look for them now. Cheers!

tomato coupe

I don't know what video you're watching, but everything on the Ceramic Speed website says it's a wireless system powered by a rechargeable battery inside the drive shaft.

livedarklions

My mistake--not a video-- @sdmc530 mentioned he saw a demo of it at Eurobike where it was plugged in. Same difference--they would have used batteries if it really worked.

At this point, their website could claim it allows you to ride to the dark side of the moon, wouldn't make it true.

ThermionicScott 

Why get hung up over the power source? Unless this device takes an unreasonable amount of power to work, that's a packaging problem, easily solved for production. If you're going to demo something, it makes sense to spend your time working on the novel change, not "oh look, we found a way to put batteries in the down tube!"

Bigbus

Going back to the original post here, I remember when they started putting that drive on motorcycles. Smoother, more efficient, and less maintenance. I'll never own a Harley without a chain, that's just sacrilegious. Now a bicycle, I'd consider that...

tomato coupe

You don't seem to understand how R&D, product development, or proof of concept projects work. (See below.)

Do you understand the difference between an outrageous claim and a rather mundane detail? There is nothing outrageous about their claim that it runs on a rechargeable battery.

There you go ...

livedarklions

OK, let's think about this for half a second. Batteries and motors weigh something, so it isn't going to take much for the added weight of this system to more than balance out the relatively minor gains in efficiency that are even theoretically possible. The assertion I was originally arguing with was essentially that this shouldn't be a problem because Di2 shifting is reliable--as far as I can tell, the only thing this and Di2 have in common is they're both electronic, so yes, power needs is a rather obvious difference to focus on.

If someone is demoing something as promotion, having a power cord plugged into the wall looks pretty bad. Again, you all are mixing up research with PR.

This is likely all a stunt to get people to say Ceramic Speed a few zillion times. And I notice that neither of you respond to the rather obvious point that if this really was a promising technology at this alleged state of development, you wouldn't actually be seeing any of it publicly.

ThermionicScott 

I *did* think about this for half a second, even more than that in fact. I'm an engineer, we're used to looking past trivial details to get at the heart of an issue. Maybe I'm too used to bench power supplies being used for developing and testing hardware to be hysterically upset at the sight.

I think we're all in agreement that this is probably vaporware -- it's the kind of thing my non-cycling friends think is cool and then send me on Facebook. Sort of like those walking scooter videos.

livedarklions

Non-engineer asking you as an engineer, but am I wrong in guessing that a variable length, variable angle drive shaft is going to have to be continuously powered to keep itself in the proper position to drive the chosen gear? On a chain drive, the chain itself keeps itself adhered properly to the cog until the derailleur is activated to move it off, but isn't this thing going to need to exert continuous pressure to mesh the bearings with the cogs? If that's the case, steady power supply that is lightweight is going to be just one of a number of non-trivial issues they'll need to solve to get the alleged 1% more efficiency.

I think if the goal was to get people to learn the name Ceramic Speed, the product has already been a big success, but right now, it looks to me like a better design for a one-speed manual egg beater than a transmission system for a bike.

tomato coupe

That paragraph is a bit meandering, however, you seem to think that this system would have a higher power requirement than Di2, eTap, or EPS. You also appear to be basing your conclusion on the fact that, at some point in the past, they used a power supply to run it. That's poor logic.

Have you not noticed how the bike industry works? Companies present new ideas and new products at trade shows, in magazines, in blogs etc. to try to get consumers excited about them. I'd hardly call this "a stunt" -- it's SOP (standard operating procedure.)

This idea is almost certainly covered by several patents, so there's little harm showing it in public. And, even if Ceramic Speed didn't have any patents, it's unlikely another company would be in a position to swoop in and steal the market (if one exists) out from under them.

ThermionicScott 

So now *you're* the guy making me think about Ceramic Speed and their new drivetrain.

I figured power would only be needed to get the servo motor to move back and forth to shift, and then the mechanism would lock into place somehow. Looks like it has some kind of sprung mechanism to allow it to bump over a cog tooth (if needed) before meshing with a particular gear ring. (And while it wouldn't score any whiz-bang points, it seems like you could just hook up an early French downtube shifter with the dual cable so you could pull it either way and save some power and complexity. )

rollagain

Agreed. The Chinese obviously know it's a dead end, which is why they haven't stolen it already.

rollagain

At least THEY have working models of theirs in production.

Ironfish653

Alternatively, it could also be that their demo model has to run on the show stand for 8 hours a day for a week at Interbike, so you either build 2 or three and hot-swap them so one's always running, or run it off of 'shore power' so that you don't have to tell people " We'd love to show you our new tech, but the batteries are recharging "



Neither the angle or the length changes. They made the 'cassette' pretty much 2-dimensional, each ring of 'teeth' is on the same plane. the 'flower/pinion' moves along the shaft to go from 'gear' to 'gear'

They also did some trickery with the frame, by moving the DS chainstay up a couple of inches so the drive shaft goes straight from the BB axle to the rear wheel axle/dropout. In the OP picture, you can see the NDS chainstay right behind/opposite the drive shaft.

It's all really cool from a tech-geek standpoint. I mean, I own a (vintage) Cannondale MTB, a Softride, and (formerly) a Buell XB9. I like original solutions. But, there is usually a trade-off when compared to 'conventional' models.
I have no doubt they'll eventually get this working, but remember,as @DrIsotope mentioned, these are the guys who sell $600 jockey wheels in the name of reducing friction.

robnol

all they need to do is have a roller bearing on the back side of the cog on the wheel to prevent drive deflection...im sure it will eventually be a manual shifting mechanism..one step at a time

chainwhip

I think there's a connection between the interesting observation( see MikeyMK at Post #31 ) that ONE ROLLER BEARING contacts ONE TOOTH ON THE COG AT A TIME... and the theoretical "100 watt limit".