derekjon

Hello to all in the C & V forum. This seems like the best place for my first post.
Actually it's less of a post and more of an autopsy, really.
So, my beloved and trustworthy 1985 Fuji League has decided to tell me it's sick and hurt, and may need to retire.
I've had it since the mid-2000s from a CL find for cheap. It had most of the original components but the paint was in poor shape.
I finally decided to get it powder coated as a nice little refresh. I even got some "Fuji VALite" decals to place on it after it was done. (You know you love yer bike when yer willing to promote its weird proprietary vanadium-manganese steel content.)
After stripping it down and cleaning the grease off and all that, I saw something at the seat stays right where they meet the seat tube...
HOLY CATS, ARE THOSE CRACKS. NOOOOOOOO.




R side looks cracked through the top of the stay itself, and the L side seems to be separating from the seat stay cap.
Man it hurt to discover this.
I know the only real answer for this issue is to take it to a good brazer and have them fix it. I was quoted about $60 over the phone, but obviously they'd have to look at it and give a proper assessment. This bike fits me great and it's a part of my very spiritual essence so I may just get that work done. Or maybe it will sit in a closet and occasionally I'll take it out and stare at it longingly.
I do think I know what happened, but I need some second opinions.
Around 2010 I took this into a small bike shop to see if I could upgrade my gearing to get some lower gears in the back. The shop owner said welp yer 6-speed freewheel has gotta go and I think we could fit a small freehub on there instead. He gave me an 8 speed freehub with a mountain bike rear derailleur, and a cassette that went as much as 34t. Perfect, I could go up any hill after that.
But after finding these cracks, I decided to do some detective work, and it looks like the hub he placed on there has an OLD of 131mm, but when I measured the dropout spacing, it was only at 128mm. It didn't look like he cold-set the frame at all to compensate for the new hub size. The original spacing, like most Japanese road bikes from that era, was 126mm.
Crud, man. I've been riding around like that for ten years.
My question to you all is...do you think these cracks were caused from stress due to the rear triangle not being spaced properly? The bike shop fella I took it to has been in my neighborhood forever, and seemed to know his stuff. I know steel is tough as heck and can take a beating, but did the 3mm of stress break my bike?
Did the bike shop guy MURDER my bike?
(Cue the Law and Order "DUN-DUNNN" music.)
Anyway, all opinions appreciated.
And please tip a 40 for my old friend, as the kids say.

cb400bill

I don’t know if he killed your bike or not. But, it happened nine years ago. I’d find another frame and move your parts over.

derekjon

Oh, I absolutely agree...I'm already pouring over potential future frames. I'm less concerned with blame (he's actually really nice), and more interested in how this thing could have happened. When I got it, it had the original seatpost (a 28.6mm Sugino KC-SP), so I guess I can rule out the seatpost being too small, I dunno. This is one of those things that will bug me until I have a better understanding of the cause.

P!N20

Doubt it. Cold setting the rear spacing is fairly crude as the rear triangles are just bent to suit, that's all that was really happening with the 131mm OLD hub in place. Your weight plus all the fun that roads present would have contributed a lot more stress than an extra few millimeters either side would have. (IMO, not a framebuilder, not an engineer, happy to be corrected, etc, etc.)

Mad Honk 

At this point, I would say junk it and move on. Those two breaks are indicative of other problems down the road. Not everything lasts forever.Smiles, MH

Kilroy1988 

Wouldn't messing with the rear triangle have to impact the brake bridge way before it had any affect on the brazing along the seat post?

scarlson 

Wow both sides. I have cracked a lot of frames, one cracked there on one side and I had done everything right (spreading the rear triangle to properly fit the hub and aligning the dropouts and all that). I've seen it in others too. I guess what I'm saying is it's not all that uncommon a failure mode.

The way to fix it is to saw off the seat stays and put plug-style seat stay caps in, then carefully file them to have good contact fit on the seat cluster and braze them into the tubes and on to the seat cluster. I'd probably do it with silver to avoid upsetting the pre-existing seat lug joint. It could be done in bronze with the right amount of skill also, but the builder would have to be quite careful.

It's not technically hard, but it is technically not worth anyone's time in economic terms. However, I fixed the cracked frame of my old war-horse for sentimental reasons even though economics told me not to. If a local builder is looking for $60, that seems quite reasonable for the repair. I would charge more than $60. Maybe you should ask for some cantilever brake posts and rack mounts while you're at it.

Or, have "fun" doing it yourself (some might disagree that this is fun or safe but this is a way to learn and if you have any prior torch experience at all I would encourage you to go for it, just do a lot of reading first and practice on some scrap and beware it will probably cost more than paying someone, the first time around).

HTupolev

While that's pretty serious...

I guess it depends on financial situation, but $60 isn't a ton of money to try saving the core of a well-liked bicycle. If a capable builder were charging that little, I'd certainly look into it.

Since you're in the process of a re-finish anyway, this is a great time to get any underlying metal repairs done, right?

P!N20

I hope I'm wrong, but...

Tulok

Ive said this same sort of thing in other threads but FIT IS KING. If it fits you amazingly and you love the bike, just pay the money and continue to enjoy it!

Here’s an alternative, just find a different frame that has the same specs! It might end up being more difficult than getting it fixed though. A cm here or there can change a lot!

derekjon

Thanks all for your insights. I think the concensus is that this was most likely caused by having heckin' fun on my bike, as one does, and not from a lack of a coldset on the rear triangle.
I won't attempt to fix it myself, and I'm unsure if I wanna take a beloved frame to the brazer. Even for that swell price.
Not throwing it out tho, so it may end up in the closet for a year or two. Sigh.
Maybe I'll cast in in lucite and hang it on my wall. You know, to keep it safe.

derekjon

Man it would be cool to get some rack mounts on there at the same time. ..hmmm

derekjon

Haha I saw too. I dunno how many "aaarghs" I can take from one frame!

79pmooney

My Trek 4000 (~'83) cracked in the same place, both sides. Very different chainstay attachment; traditional capped stays. Both caps cracked through the deeply stamped "TREK".

I"m guessing this is simply a matter of poor design or execution of this one detail. For my Trek, the lettering was stamped too deep and many of them cracked. (When I talked to the framebuilder on the phone, he knew exactly what I was talking about without having seen the bike, told me exactly what the repair would entail, that he would do the other side as well and that if I looked closely, I would see cracking on the other side. (He was right.)

Fuji made good bikes. If you like it, find a framebuilder and get it fixed. Have him put on another set of water bottle bosses, braze-ons for racks, fenders, generator. Go wild, this is the time.

Ben (edit for a typo)

Phil_gretz

Three strikes for the shop owner. First, there are plenty of 6-speed and 7-speed solutions that would have fit your OLD. Second, he didn't discuss options with you thoroughly, including what the compromises would be. Third, he crammed that 8-speed setup into the frame without proper cold setting.

His three strikes. You're out.

Get the frame repaired and keep riding it.

derekjon

It may just be. If I put it in the closet it will stay there forever.

derekjon

Nice goes a long way with me but yeah there could have been other options discussed. Now that I mostly work on my own stuff I don't really need an LBS anymore, unless I'm out of a specific size of ball bearing etc

derekjon

That makes sense but I just didn't have enough experience with this type of break to know for sure.

jetboy 

what size is the bike? I have a free fuji s12 ltd if you want it. san francisco. I am not sure size but its too small for me.. probably a 54? if you are interested i could check. its in the pile!
the ltd is a good bike, a step up from your standard s12.

edit: wait a second, you don't live next to me do you? on 59th st? guy there has a shogun and his GF(wife?.. i don't know the details) has a panasonic. you see how I have no idea what his name is but I remember his bikes...

derekjon

Wow that's a rad offer. But i would need a 58cm so the 54 would be too small. Ugh that's too bad cuz the S12 Ltd would be an incredible gift. Thank you anyway!
Also I don't think we're neighbors...I'm in Oakland near the fancy mac n cheese place on 40th. I used to commute via bike to SF tho every day for work...one dollar for the Caltrans bike shuttle to pick you up in Oakland and drop you off near Market. Still the best transbay commute option in the Bay Area!

ramzilla

Slap some JB Weld on it. That will buff right out.

ramzilla

Go on Craigs List and look for another vintage Fuji frame. They're a dime a dozen. (As a matter of fact I've got one hanging out in the garage right now I'm advertising for sale on CL. It's an absolutely beautiful 1992 Club Fuji listed in Jacksonville FL).

WildRalph

Perhaps steel got too hot during brazing process and became brittle, leading to stress cracks from vibration, etc. Just a theory. I dont like the top of the seat stays on these. League
= Mid to low level bikes i presume, the cut and folding of the taper, small surface area at solder point, etc. Mine made me do a double take. Maybe all Fuji's are like this, and they're fine, just my gut reaction was "Hmmm..."

derekjon

That is true. I have my antennae out there but in the Bay Area of CA the used bike scene is a little ridiculou$ with the pricing.

derekjon

I don't like how they did the stays either. Most bikes I've seen have the actual stay, not the stay cap, attached to the seat tube. But from reading all the previous posts I guess it's a thing that happens no matter what the design. But it will make me cautious if I see stays like that on another bike.
From what I understand, the League was low-mid level from the point of cost...the Fuji Club from that year (1985) was a little more expensive, but basically the same bike except with a tad bit better components (Suntour Superbe instead of LePree etc). Both with were Fuji's "VALite" tubing, which apparently was a steel formulated to be brazed by automated robotic processes.
I wonder if the robot that made mine got fired and is now living on the streets of Osaka somewhere.