Think I may have to give up commuting.
11-23-18, 03:45 AM
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I eventually discovered that I "had" to angle my toes out a fair bit to be comfortable.
Hadn't been an obvious thought to me.
But I'm "lucky" that my anatomy is fairly symmetrical. Getting that fit right was fairly easy as soon as I realized it needed adjusting.
Some need very different angles left/right, which generally take more effort to figure out.
And then there's the degree of float as allowed by the pedals.
And canting.
11-23-18, 01:06 PM
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Not all clipless nor all cleat installs are created equal.
I eventually discovered that I "had" to angle my toes out a fair bit to be comfortable.
Hadn't been an obvious thought to me.
But I'm "lucky" that my anatomy is fairly symmetrical. Getting that fit right was fairly easy as soon as I realized it needed adjusting.
Some need very different angles left/right, which generally take more effort to figure out.
And then there's the degree of float as allowed by the pedals.
And canting.
I eventually discovered that I "had" to angle my toes out a fair bit to be comfortable.
Hadn't been an obvious thought to me.
But I'm "lucky" that my anatomy is fairly symmetrical. Getting that fit right was fairly easy as soon as I realized it needed adjusting.
Some need very different angles left/right, which generally take more effort to figure out.
And then there's the degree of float as allowed by the pedals.
And canting.
Clipless is a perfectly good system but if you're having issues that would go away if you went to good flats - there's no reason to go overboard trying to make it work.
11-23-18, 01:16 PM
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11-23-18, 02:51 PM
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11-23-18, 06:33 PM
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Sometimes I wonder if knee pain is due to athritis or bad eating habits. I remember having knee pain on my left knee sometimes when I bike. Sometimes, there's no warning at all. There would just be a really sharp pain out of nowhere. But it has been four yers since then and my knee has gotten much better. Never went to the doctor or anything. Just waited it out.
11-23-18, 09:04 PM
#32
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My knees went South after 8.5 years of biking. Went to 2 doctors, both which said I didn't need surgery, one who recommended physical therapy. Got off the bike for a number of years when I went to live overseas, but was still doing the same repetitious movements using g the subway. The aching got real bad and I went to an alternative practitioner who fixed them. They have never returned to the point they were at. Three years ago I did more online research and started taking Cod liver oil pills. They became my little magic pill. I highly recommend them. I've switched recently to fish oil pills and feel no difference (they're cheaper).
11-24-18, 05:59 AM
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It’s so much easier to take off from standstill. Simply lift the clicked-in foot and it’s in the powerstroke. Instant launch.
Really though, the benefit to me isn’t any extra seconds shaved off the travel time, but the ease of use.
11-25-18, 07:48 PM
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My regular riding is 1/3 city center, 2/3 suburbs. I do think I’m a bit faster with clipless.
It’s so much easier to take off from standstill. Simply lift the clicked-in foot and it’s in the powerstroke. Instant launch.
Really though, the benefit to me isn’t any extra seconds shaved off the travel time, but the ease of use.
Really though, the benefit to me isn’t any extra seconds shaved off the travel time, but the ease of use.
I disagree...but as another poster point out -
There's no reason to derail this thread on a topic that - per the OP's response - isn't relevant.
Last edited by PaulRivers; 11-25-18 at 07:55 PM.
11-26-18, 08:36 AM
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I've had bad knees since I was 24, and I'm 57! I manage. Like @CliffordK, they get worse when I stop cycling, oddly enough, but cycling in bad form can also hurt. Basically, I'm just careful. Doing the right exercises and the things @dabac mentions.
And if you think an e-bike might be right for you, consider that you've already proven you don't need a four wheel overpowered vehicle, so that's great already. An e-bike can be a wonderful thing, and you can also get exercise from it if you choose to.
And if you think an e-bike might be right for you, consider that you've already proven you don't need a four wheel overpowered vehicle, so that's great already. An e-bike can be a wonderful thing, and you can also get exercise from it if you choose to.
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11-30-18, 02:16 PM
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A few thoughts from someone just getting back into bike commuting after 2 years off due to knee injuries.
- If you haven't already, I'd highly recommend seeing a physical therapist. I used to commute regularly, then took some time off, then, after getting back into it I had symptoms similar to yours. The pain started with hills and progressed to flat surfaces. I'd never had any knee injuries, but a sports medicine doctor suggested I go to physical therapy for a few weeks, and I was back to riding with basically no pain within a few weeks. There are certain exercises that can really help alleviate pain.
- If you can find one, go see a therapist who specializes in biking. I ended up spending over a year in PT due to a subsequent car crash injuring the same knee and the person I ended up seeing was amazing (his idea of fun was riding the steepest hill around 10 times in a row when I could barely get up it once). Beyond providing a bike fitting (and understanding how changes will affect the knees), he worked with me to correct my technique and get the right exercises. The other PT I saw was good and succeeded with my relatively mild overuse injury, but just didn't have the experience if anything was harder than expected.
- If you're willing to travel, there are doctors who specialize in patellofemoral pain. The difference for me was that the specialist I saw thought about things and came up with the right diagnosis that was outside of her field while the local orthopedic surgeon I saw just followed a set script no matter the evidence presented before him because I just had knee pain.
- E-bikes are awesome. I just invested in one so that I could get back to bike commuting. I get at least half of my normal workout (and can do as much or as little as I want), travel twice as fast, and am able to do it every day from the start rather than having to train for weeks to bike commute more than half the time. I upgraded my bike using a mid-drive motor (BBS02) and it's really been a treat. It's definitely easier on my knees, particularly on the constant hills we have here in Seattle. Plus, it gives you the option to get as much assistance as you need - if you're feeling great, turn it down and do most of the work yourself. But if you knees are painful that day, ramp up the power and still bike to work.
11-30-18, 06:34 PM
#37
Virgo
Weak knees and no adductors in left leg. Best I can do is use flat pedals, stretch, do squats, and watch technique carefully. I’m commuting 2+ hrs a day, every day unless roads are icy. Moving saddle back and down and spinning rather than mashing made a bigger difference for me than all the preventative stuff but I still pay for it if I go too long without. Saddle height was the single biggest factor for me.
Oh, yeah, also worth mention is that I have a desk job and am not very active off the bike. Those two can cause big issues.
Oh, yeah, also worth mention is that I have a desk job and am not very active off the bike. Those two can cause big issues.
12-05-18, 05:03 PM
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So my yearly checkup is next month. That's when I'm going to bring this up to my doctor. But what I'm wondering is what would be a reasonable expectation?
Should I expect to be able to ride 8 miles twice a day without knee pain? Or is that just to much to ask for?
I haven't ridden since I posted this. My knees are still hurting even worse. Now my right knee has pain with normal walking.
I am willing to do whatever I need to do to get my knees back. I'm just not sure if that's even a reasonable expectation.
Should I expect to be able to ride 8 miles twice a day without knee pain? Or is that just to much to ask for?
I haven't ridden since I posted this. My knees are still hurting even worse. Now my right knee has pain with normal walking.
I am willing to do whatever I need to do to get my knees back. I'm just not sure if that's even a reasonable expectation.
12-05-18, 05:35 PM
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So my yearly checkup is next month. That's when I'm going to bring this up to my doctor. But what I'm wondering is what would be a reasonable expectation?
Should I expect to be able to ride 8 miles twice a day without knee pain? Or is that just to much to ask for?
I haven't ridden since I posted this. My knees are still hurting even worse. Now my right knee has pain with normal walking.
I am willing to do whatever I need to do to get my knees back. I'm just not sure if that's even a reasonable expectation.
Should I expect to be able to ride 8 miles twice a day without knee pain? Or is that just to much to ask for?
I haven't ridden since I posted this. My knees are still hurting even worse. Now my right knee has pain with normal walking.
I am willing to do whatever I need to do to get my knees back. I'm just not sure if that's even a reasonable expectation.
I would forget the biking for now and try to get some help with your knees, the bikes will always be out there.
12-05-18, 06:12 PM
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No, you should not have that kind of pain. You may need to strengthen some muscles around the knees. Or maybe some other exercises are in order. I agree that an orthopedist or physiatrist should be able to get you into the right physical therapy. Also, have you asked a bike expert to see if your fit on the bike is right?
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“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
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12-06-18, 12:08 AM
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I definitely think you should be able to walk without pain. Whether you can bike 16 miles every day is a different question - my guess is that it would be a good goal but not a certain outcome, depending on how far you wanted to go with treatment and what the actual issue was. But, as everyone I think has said, go see a physical therapist. I'd strongly recommend finding one who specializes in biking and/or knee pain. If that person can also fit bikes, even better. The PT I saw who did this was BikeFit certified and a USA cycling coach, so that might be something to look for in PTs.
And make sure you receive good care. If you don't like your current doctor, try a different one if you can. At the very least get a second opinion - that should be covered by all insurance plans. I'd also strongly recommend being picky about your doctor. One good (though not always perfect) way is to see who the local professional sports teams use for their injuries.
And make sure you receive good care. If you don't like your current doctor, try a different one if you can. At the very least get a second opinion - that should be covered by all insurance plans. I'd also strongly recommend being picky about your doctor. One good (though not always perfect) way is to see who the local professional sports teams use for their injuries.
12-06-18, 03:21 AM
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Copper and magnetic wrist bands solved my bad knees. I commute on my bikes 125 miles a week and work with a lot of ex machine, aircraft fitters and miners. They all wear magnetized copper bands to help with joint pain. You can even get copper inserts for your insole for a heavy dose. Nobody works without them. Apparently it is an old Roman Army cure to keep your sword arm fully functionable.
12-13-18, 01:00 AM
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are e bikes better for the environment ??
i dunno , they might be just as bad short term they do need power to run , it would be cool if you could charge your ebike with a indoor trainer generator , i seen a few on amazon , the idea looks good ?
i dunno , they might be just as bad short term they do need power to run , it would be cool if you could charge your ebike with a indoor trainer generator , i seen a few on amazon , the idea looks good ?
12-13-18, 01:11 AM
#44
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As much as I enjoy it I don't think my knees can take it.
A couple weeks ago they started hurting a little. Mainly in the evening and waking up in the morning. The best way I can describe it is a raw feeling. Then the pain started while pedaling. Especially my right knee.
I decided to take last week off and double down on stretches. Finally had two days without knee pain and decided to try again this morning. After about two miles my right knee started telling me on every down stroke that it wasn't happy. It got to the point that I couldn't put any pressure whatsoever on it and I essentially did the last mile or so one legged. I hobbled around until about 2 O'Clock until the pain eased off. I took it very easy in the way home and did okay until I got home and off the bike. They were on fire. I've been melting ice packs on them for awhile now. Man are they hurting though.
My knees are what made me get off the bike seven or eight years ago. After years of abuse doing concrete work and working in crawl spaces under houses I had partially torn meniscus in both knees that I never had addressed. I've since been told by an orthopedic Dr that I have patellofemoral syndrome. I've had two Cortisone shots in my right knee and had enough relief that I could ride around the neighborhood with my wife and son. After that I thought I could handle the commute, especially after the first couple weeks were pain free. But now it's pretty clear that I'm not going to be able to do it with any regularity. Which is a major bummer because I thoroughly enjoy it. I'm not doing heavy construction work anymore but I still have a very physical job and can't take the chance of really damaging my knees.
I'll talk to my doctor again when I go for my annual check-up. Mainly just venting because I've really grown to enjoy getting around by bicycle.
A couple weeks ago they started hurting a little. Mainly in the evening and waking up in the morning. The best way I can describe it is a raw feeling. Then the pain started while pedaling. Especially my right knee.
I decided to take last week off and double down on stretches. Finally had two days without knee pain and decided to try again this morning. After about two miles my right knee started telling me on every down stroke that it wasn't happy. It got to the point that I couldn't put any pressure whatsoever on it and I essentially did the last mile or so one legged. I hobbled around until about 2 O'Clock until the pain eased off. I took it very easy in the way home and did okay until I got home and off the bike. They were on fire. I've been melting ice packs on them for awhile now. Man are they hurting though.
My knees are what made me get off the bike seven or eight years ago. After years of abuse doing concrete work and working in crawl spaces under houses I had partially torn meniscus in both knees that I never had addressed. I've since been told by an orthopedic Dr that I have patellofemoral syndrome. I've had two Cortisone shots in my right knee and had enough relief that I could ride around the neighborhood with my wife and son. After that I thought I could handle the commute, especially after the first couple weeks were pain free. But now it's pretty clear that I'm not going to be able to do it with any regularity. Which is a major bummer because I thoroughly enjoy it. I'm not doing heavy construction work anymore but I still have a very physical job and can't take the chance of really damaging my knees.
I'll talk to my doctor again when I go for my annual check-up. Mainly just venting because I've really grown to enjoy getting around by bicycle.
12-13-18, 02:04 AM
#45
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If your electricity is in large part renewables, then the story is even better.
12-13-18, 03:59 AM
#46
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In one of the last Bridgestone catalogs, Grant Petersen did a great job laying out the environment and electrical cost of producing a conventional bicycle. Stamping, welding, extruding, brazing, in short, every step along the way in the manufacturing process, not to mention the process of digging for iron ore, all take a huge toll on the environment.
The topsoil is destroyed, the ecosystem is destroyed, and of course huge amounts of petrol are required to dig for these ores. In order to acquire the petrol, even more damage to the environment is required. Every step along the way: producing a frame, pedals, tires, spokes, cables, etc., all have an environmental impact.
It doesn't end there. The more you ride, the more calories you burn. Say, 125 calories for every 5 miles. That's 250 calories for a 10 mile commute, or 750 calories for a 30 mile weekend ride. An e-bike ride halves those figures. Those extra calories have to be replaced. That means you eat more food. This requires transportation costs and petrol which involves environmental damage, paying for and feeding workers and/or more petrol for agricultural equipment, irrigation, pesticides etc etc etc etc etc etc.
To put it simply, there is an environmental cost to conventional bicycles as well, although it is largely invisible, and a tiny fraction compared to automobiles. Electric bicycles are a very green form of transportation, relatively speaking. So are conventional bicycles of course. But keep in mind the environmental toll is far from zero in either case.
The topsoil is destroyed, the ecosystem is destroyed, and of course huge amounts of petrol are required to dig for these ores. In order to acquire the petrol, even more damage to the environment is required. Every step along the way: producing a frame, pedals, tires, spokes, cables, etc., all have an environmental impact.
It doesn't end there. The more you ride, the more calories you burn. Say, 125 calories for every 5 miles. That's 250 calories for a 10 mile commute, or 750 calories for a 30 mile weekend ride. An e-bike ride halves those figures. Those extra calories have to be replaced. That means you eat more food. This requires transportation costs and petrol which involves environmental damage, paying for and feeding workers and/or more petrol for agricultural equipment, irrigation, pesticides etc etc etc etc etc etc.
To put it simply, there is an environmental cost to conventional bicycles as well, although it is largely invisible, and a tiny fraction compared to automobiles. Electric bicycles are a very green form of transportation, relatively speaking. So are conventional bicycles of course. But keep in mind the environmental toll is far from zero in either case.
12-13-18, 04:03 AM
#47
Senior Member
I should also add that my knee pain has largely disappeared in the past year. I attribute it to two things:
1. a daily dose of bacon and eggs.
2. taking off the rack, bag, panniers and the accompanying ulock and cable and other little tidbits that transformed a (relatively) svelte flat bar road bike into a 40 lbs clunker.
1. a daily dose of bacon and eggs.
2. taking off the rack, bag, panniers and the accompanying ulock and cable and other little tidbits that transformed a (relatively) svelte flat bar road bike into a 40 lbs clunker.
12-14-18, 02:01 PM
#48
Virgo
So my yearly checkup is next month. That's when I'm going to bring this up to my doctor. But what I'm wondering is what would be a reasonable expectation?
Should I expect to be able to ride 8 miles twice a day without knee pain? Or is that just to much to ask for?
I haven't ridden since I posted this. My knees are still hurting even worse. Now my right knee has pain with normal walking.
I am willing to do whatever I need to do to get my knees back. I'm just not sure if that's even a reasonable expectation.
Should I expect to be able to ride 8 miles twice a day without knee pain? Or is that just to much to ask for?
I haven't ridden since I posted this. My knees are still hurting even worse. Now my right knee has pain with normal walking.
I am willing to do whatever I need to do to get my knees back. I'm just not sure if that's even a reasonable expectation.
I went straight into a 25 mile R/T bike commute from nearly zero riding. If I had it to do over, I'd have started on a hybrid or MTB like yours with a triple rather than road bikes with big handlebar drops and steep double gearing. I ride a hybrid with a triple now with drop bars added for comfort.
Not saying that I think your saddle height is wrong or your overall fit isn't right or anything, just wanted to share my experience. Hopefully things will improve for you soon. Knee pain is hard.
12-15-18, 11:47 AM
#49
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I was reading through your commuter build thread (awesome, BTW) and just wanted to drop you a note that we're similarly sized at 6'0" and 34" inseam. I run my saddles now at about 30 1/2" from center of crank to level top of saddle along the seat tube/seat post. If it moves more than about 1/4" up or down, I get a little pain after 20 miles or so. I run flat pedals and have to be mindful of the sole thickness of whatever shoes I'm wearing. Q/R seat post makes adjustments quick and easy. I have a little arthritis in addition to other issues, but I can say with certainty that having my saddle too high and too far forward was the source of a lot of unnecessary pain for me. It took me about a year to get it dialed in. It usually takes me about 3 weeks, 400-500 miles to get completely adjusted to fit changes, i.e. saddle height, bar height/angle, etc. Changing my saddle height even only 1/8" has me feeling like I'm pedaling in squares for a few days. My knee pain was the worst when my saddle height was 31 1/2" or so, or higher. I had a really hard time figuring out saddle height. For me, inseam x .883 was the best starting point and tweak slightly for best comfort from there.
I went straight into a 25 mile R/T bike commute from nearly zero riding. If I had it to do over, I'd have started on a hybrid or MTB like yours with a triple rather than road bikes with big handlebar drops and steep double gearing. I ride a hybrid with a triple now with drop bars added for comfort.
Not saying that I think your saddle height is wrong or your overall fit isn't right or anything, just wanted to share my experience. Hopefully things will improve for you soon. Knee pain is hard.
I went straight into a 25 mile R/T bike commute from nearly zero riding. If I had it to do over, I'd have started on a hybrid or MTB like yours with a triple rather than road bikes with big handlebar drops and steep double gearing. I ride a hybrid with a triple now with drop bars added for comfort.
Not saying that I think your saddle height is wrong or your overall fit isn't right or anything, just wanted to share my experience. Hopefully things will improve for you soon. Knee pain is hard.
02-24-19, 03:25 PM
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I've got my MRI coming up this week. My biggest fear is that they won't find anything. However I just decided to ride down to the store for some things and my knee is on fire. Maybe a half mile round trip. Something is definitely wrong.
