Maelochs

"Moving to a foreign country" when you are 15 is Not a question of "following a calling" ... unless one wants to run away from home and change one's name to avoid the search by the frantic parents (which is tough considering the need for a passport.) The parents have to not only comply, but pay.

Moving from one city in Belgium or Italy to another is not quite the same ... but look ... if you cannot understand why All the things mentioned here make it less likely that such a "calling" would develop ....

Whatever.

It is easy to say, "Americans are soft." But, as I asked, and no one answered ... why don't a lot of Euro kids want to play American football? Are they soft? (See how silly things get when we we start tossing around nationalistic stereotypres?)

No. It just doesn't have wide cultural appeal. It doesn't generally look like a an attractive or even a very possible option.

Same with cycling in the U.S. It doesn't look fun or interesting or exciting .... no one dreams of being a sports star in a sport most people don't follow and barely know exist..

On top of that, cycling is a very expensive sport to pursue. Football, basketball ... there are school and community structures in place. Parents might have to pay for some gear, but in many cases some of it will be supplied, and there are already buses carrying players to games.

Cycling, parents have to buy All the gear (and of course, kids outgrow it quickly) and then they actually have to drive the kid to every event, and if it is a weekend event, maybe pay for a hotel. Considering that the bike alone is going to run minimum $1000 (thought it might last a few years) that is already more money than most parents can afford to spend for kids to "play" sports.

The few people who do manage to convince their parents ... have to have already shown a ton of talent, have to have fairly wealthy parents, have to have unusually open-minded parents, and have to want to succeed in a sport most of his/her peers probably haven't heard of more than three times in their lives. (And when they get to Europe, the Irish will call them "soft." )

The biggest reason is, I think ... that very few kids dream of being a major cycling star. While in Europe Cippollini or Merckx or Hinault might be more common names ... in the U.S. Lemonde sounds like a French newspaper. The only "cycling star" most people have heard of in Lance Armstrong, and probably most younger children haven't heard of him .... after all his heyday was around the turn of the century and five years after .... when the "young riders" of today were three, or not even born.

Not many people dream of being a Big Cycling Star because There Are No Big Cycling Stars. Nobody dreams of being a Big Cycling Star because there is no Big Cycling Star in the news, wearing lots of bling and surrounded by beautiful women, signing huge contracts and huge endorsement deals. There are no Big Cycling Stars in the Top Ten on SportCenter or the cover of magazines or featured prominently on social media.

Basically, there is no career path, "Big Cyclign Star," in the U.S. It isn't a job, so why would any kid growing up dream of doing something which doesn't exist?

On the other hand, there are basketball hoops everywhere, and basketball stars sign $30-million contracts, do commercials, wear expensive jewelry while riding in their expensive cars with their model girlfriends ... (one more thing occurs to me .... the stereotypical "American Male" has a deep chest, flat stomach, big shoulders and biceps .... a GC cyclist looks like a stiff breeze would flatten him. No one dreams of being scrawny ... maybe that is a part of it.)

So why is it that kids in the U.S. dream of really attractive futures, instead of no future at all, is basically the question.

Caretaker

No one is suggesting 15 y-o kids move to Belgium or wherever. For example Sean Kelly didn't ride a bike race till he was 14, didn't join a French amateur club till he was 20 where he was supported by the club with very basic accommodation and pocket money.

I understand perfectly all the reasons given.

I never said 'Americans are soft' but what I did say was 'based on what I'm seeing posted here they are comfortable'.
The American football analogy doesn't stand up. Cycling has had prominent U.S. riders for decades and bike companies like Giant, Trek, Specialized.
What I'm looking for are solutions not excuses. I think the suggestion of college programs/scholarships is one, let's see more.

CerveloJoe

There really aren't many solutions in America such as you suggest. I find it unfortunate, given the wealth in this country, but it is the way things are structured here. If it isn't profitable for investors, they aren't interested. I don't believe "Maelochs", myself or anyone else here is making excuses. Rather, we're stating reasons to your questions as to why more American riders don't evolve into world class cyclists. There just isn't the same structure to develop kids like there are in many European countries. European kids have legitimate entities (sports clubs) that will develop, train and encourage them and will help subsidize the extreme cost through this development. We don't have anything like this, with possibly the exception of Olympic training to some degree and then the athletes have to find jobs during this training to afford this venture.

The family in America has to pay for the entire experience for their child with no guarantee of success and may also need to travel great distances to compete in top tier events. Trust me on this. I've lived it with a child that was very gifted in golf. I'm far from wealthy, but it cost me thousands to allow my son this privilege. I did it for no other reason but for our experience and enjoyment. I wouldn't trade it for the world. It allowed us to become close in ways that may not have been possible otherwise and he realized how much we sacrificed and appreciated that. I knew at an early age that as talented as he was, he didn't have the desire to pursue it as an occupation and I was okay with that decision. He did earn a partial scholarship to play in college, but even that compensation didn't cover what we put into it. I think as "Maelochs" stated, most sensible parents will not consider the dream of being a professional cyclist a viable or sensible pursuit and instead, encourage their child to consider education as the reality.

I want to emphasize; we are offering valid reasons and not excuses. I don't believe you totally understand that the American's on this forum would love to see more American kids compete at the highest level. We realize the likelihood of this is remote. Hopefully we will have a fair amount of riders at times as we did in the past 20 years, but it will never be a perpetual thing I don't believe.

Mitchemous

Interesting

Maelochs

Actually, i think the football analogy is accurate for this reason ... there have been NFL games in Europe, and people there know about it and have for a couple decades.

“Since 1993 EFAF was the American Football Federation in Europe.

“In 2014 IFAF Europe was taking over the functions and duties of EFAF as a committee of IFAF. 2016 IFAF Europe was organized as continental federation.

“Now IFAF Europe has its own Homepage at https://www.ifaf-europe.org”

There was even an NFL-sanctioned league in Europe for two decades. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_Europe

But ... there is not a lot of support structure and there is not a lot of fan interest.

I see a similar situation with baseball in Australia, where cricket and Aussie-rules football, Euro football and rugby rule. There is an Australian national baseball team, but the sport has no real infrastructure. Not enough popular interest to grow.

The U.S. has bike companies, bike races, we have even has a few Tour winners ... but other than Lance, who knows the names of any of them?

And while U.S. cycling has a much more developed infrastructure, it basically meets the needs of the rider base as is. Why go to Europe (and you can point out the three people in on all the World Tour and Continental teams who started at 20 ... but even you example of Sean Kelly … He started racing at 14. I said 15 …. So we agree) when you can do all the races you can afford in the U.S.?

You say you “understand” all the reasons … but I think you don’t accept them. I think that is amply proven when you say:

As CerveloJoe notes, what you choose to call “excuses” are in fact, explanations, explanations given by people who are actually on the ground, on site, and who actually deal with American riders and racers. You might not Like what we say, but we know what we are talking about.

And what (I think) we are both saying is: The best U.S. athletes have no interest in cycling.

The Reason there is not a more developed cycling infrastructure is there isn’t more interest. This is not a movie. “If you build it they will come” is pure fiction. There has to be an interest before than can be infrastructure.

Look at how soccer exploded in the U.S. Kids saw soccer as a fun sport, and parents saw it as an affordable sport (no equipment to buy) and suddenly there were youth soccer leagues Everywhere. Kids didn’t need to be unnaturally large or strong to succeed—the kids who couldn’t play football, could still play soccer, and even excel.

Now we have a national men’s and women’s league … but it started from kids wanting to play soccer.

Cycling needs to be introduced to kids when they are pre-teen, and then supported in high schools (some Midwest and West Coast schools have mountain-bike teams.)

But cycling faces a lot of hurdles at that level. For one, safe places to ride. Any flat space can be a football, baseball, or soccer field. But where do kids learn to ride bikes where they are not at danger from traffic? Even pro riders regularly get hit by cars while training, even while training with teams.

Second is enormous equipment cost. No sport costs as much to start, because everyone needs a bicycle. And then shoes and a helmet, minimum. Then, a bike rack for the family car.

On top of that, bikes are very size-dependent.

Schools cannot afford that. Many schools can recycle football gear for years. Uniforms for other sports get reused for longer … and are cheaper to replace. A local car dealer who wants a sign on the outfield fence can buy uniforms for a baseball team for a pittance, compared to what it would cost for bikes for a team.

Also, a lot of parents cannot afford it. Ask CerveloJoe about his struggles to help his talented golfer son ….. By the way, there are a lot of high schools nowadays that have golf teams … and a pro golfer can make a pretty good living and have a pretty long career compared to a cyclist.

So … no cycling in junior high or high school … and then, on to college (if you don’t go to Europe to race.) Obviously colleges can afford Enormous sports programs …. A lot of schools make millions upon millions selling rights to their football game broadcasts.

Thing is … people Want to watch those games. People Don’t want to watch the junior varsity cycling team … they don’t even want to watch the Tour of California, much, and no other U.S. race is televised anywhere at all, that I know of.

So … no college cycling teams because the athletes don’t want to cycle, and the schools have no incentive to build teams even if there was demand from the athletes.

This comes back to my NFL/Europe analogy.

The reason there aren’t a lot of Euro kids yearning to play in the NFL is that there aren’t. Nobody much cares about American football in Europe.

Yeah, there are a few leagues, and those leagues have been around for a long time … and anyone in Europe who wants to play American football will likely play there. The leagues don’t grow … because the Euro kids don’t like the sport. Plain and simple. They do not Want to play.

Well, … by and large American kids don’t Want to cycle competitively. Sorry there are cultural differences, but there it is.

If the demand was there, the infrastructure would grow. Soccer demonstrates how that works. But no matter how much anyone Here wants kids in the U.S. to ride … the kids don’t want to.

It isn’t that they don’t know that cycling is an option. It is that cycling takes a tiny place in a dark corner of American sports culture, where football, baseball, hockey, and basketball rule, and a few other sports do really well.

If you know some way to make kids want to become bike racers, go ahead and put it into action. But if the demand were there, the existing infrastructure would grow to adapt to it, and would spread into new areas, like schools. The fact that it hasn’t shows that the demand is not there.

And as I said a few posts back … cyclists are not “cool” (or whatever the latest teen equivalent might be, bad, down, whatever. I gave up trying to learn the youth lingo many decades ago.)

It is not that there are no opportunities … it is that there aren’t many people who Want those opportunities.

You really want “solutions”? maybe listen to people who grew up in the culture, who have associations with local cycling, who see kids starting out, who talk with the parents of kids …. And who also talk with the kids who are in that 15-16-year-old age bracket when the choice gets made.

You say American kids are ‘comfortable” and you do say it in a demeaning way … because, after all comfort is bad, and they are too comfortable to pursue their vocations, right?

Wrong. Kids here don’t Have the call to be cyclists. You change that, and all the rest will grow organically.

There you go.

Caretaker

^^Instead of arguing semantics over excuses v explanations or being all hurt because you think 'comfortable' is demeaning come up with constructive ideas about how to improve things. BTW it was CerveloJoe in #27 who first used the word 'comfortable' quote "Cycling in America typically attracts athletes that come from fairly comfortable demographics." So if you find the use of the word 'demeaning' take it up with your fellow countryman.

CerveloJoe

You're just arguing to be arguing "Caretaker". We've given you reasons (our opinions based on cultural knowledge), but you still continue to badger us. At the end of the day, do you really give a s*** if American racers ever cross the Atlantic again. If you do want that, are you prepared for them to win these events and listen to chest thumping comments from armchair experts? We're not shoving arrogant dialogue at you. We're simply trying to explain what we know or feel about this topic. This has exceeded common sense. The fact that bike racing isn't of cultural significance in America as it is in Europe is confirmation enough. Let's just move on without the useless America versus Europe (rest of the world for that matter) debate, shall we. There are few viable solutions to create more cycling interest in America. George Hincapie has created a developmental program I believe. I'm not sure where he receives monetary help, but maybe you should ask him. It will take personal interest, with the energy and perhaps credibility (such that Hincapie certainly has) to help with this issue and it seems there isn't enough interest in America to create this. It is what it is and will most likely never change. Our best athletes are going to prefer American sports for their occupation in almost all cases. Whether you accept that we've satisfied the answers for this or not, in our minds we have. America will more than likely never be a constant force in world cycling, due to the factors we mention.

Caretaker

Yes I would like to see more American pro-cyclists in races and winning. I'm asking the experts for ways to achieve this but a couple of them on here are more interested in badgering me. Apparently the U.S. message when repeated by a non-American suddenly becomes controversial.

CerveloJoe

We're not badgering you. We've offered our honest opinions, but you want to isolate certain things said and dwell on them.

I'm done with this. I'm off to ride my bike. Perhaps if I take training a little more seriously, at the spry young age of 58, I can become the future American hope . Peace out and enjoy cycling the way you see fit. This conjecture should have stopped (by us all) quite awhile ago.

Caretaker

You've said that before in #32 quote "Again, I'm not trying to argue and this will be my last response." but it didn't stop you coming back to badger me again. Hope you keep your word this time.

hobbs1951

Interesting thread, but I guess cycling is not embedded in American culture like it is in Europe, when Greg Lemond first came to Europe in 1980 it was very unusual for an American; and then he signed with Renault for the 1981 season. I understand where he lived in the USA and the distance from school precluded him participating in team games.

I have huge respect for Greg as it must have been very difficult, unimaginably so, coming to Europe nearly 40 years ago. Putting Armstrong aside there's been no American since who's made remotely the impact that Greg did back then.

A poster mentioned American football*, we English have rugby and soccer, I played rugby for my school and county and have ridden the bicycle from an early age.

John.

*watched quite a few games when I lived in the USA for 18 months in the 1980s - America was as strange for me as Europe was for Greg !

Caretaker

People forget Jock Boyer (possibly because of his 2002 conviction for child molesting) who turned pro with a French team in 1977 and was the first American to ride the TdF in 1981. He also rode for Sem with Kelly in the 1983 Tour.
I agree LeMond is the stand out rider but don't forget Chris Horner's Vuelta win in 2013.
The peloton is much more anglophone today than it was in the 1970s/80s and this must be taken into account when considering the cultural transition riders have to make crossing the Atlantic. IMO you can build it up to be something it isn't which doesn't help in encouraging young riders from the U.S. to further their careers.

hobbs1951

I haven't forgotten Jock Boyer completely (despite his vile criminal activity), I've been following the TdeF since the mid 1970s when I was a schoolboy. Greg was the standout rider (sic) simply because of the era, coming to Europe now with all the support riders get in the big teams cannot be compared to the 1970s or even the 1980s.

Also consider the British riders, the oft referred to Foreign Legion that left Britain (Sean Yates, Paul Sherwen, Robert Millar) and Ireland (Stephen Roche) consider Shay Elliott, the first Irishman to wear the Yellow Jersey and he won stages in all the major tours - he's been largely forgotten now except in his native Ireland (Wicklow) and rightly so.

I know some of the riders and team members from this era, so have first hand anecdotes, although these friends are old timers and some have passed away in recent years sadly.

John.

CerveloJoe

Lemond and Boyer broke that ground and as you said, they did it the hard way by coming over alone or in Greg's case, with his wife. They were soon followed by other American's, Canadian's and Mexican's in the 7-Eleven team, which I feel made that an easier proposition for them. It was a great time for English speaking riders. As you mentioned, there was Paul Sherwin, Sean Yates, Robert Millar, Stephen Roche, Sean Kelley and there were also very capable Australian's on the scene, such as Phil Anderson. Soon after that period, America had the Tour de Trump/DuPont a great event that allowed American's to witness some of the best racers in the world. Out west, America had the Coor's Classic which also did well.

I remember hearing Greg's remark made by Kathy's father when he asked for his approval to marry her. He basically asked if Greg thought he could support his daughter as a bike racer. As we know, Greg did quite well monetarily, but that is another indicator of American sensibility and ignorance of the sport. Of course, Greg was one of the very top riders of his generation allowing him to make the money he did. I have always tended to pull for the English speaking riders. Not only American's, but riders from the British Isles, Ireland, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc., although I've pulled for many other riders over the years. And let's not forget the Columbian presence over the many years, even though they're not English speakers. They have also made a huge impact on the sport. They have also had to make the same trek in order to race against the best.

Paul Barnard

It all boils down to this. We don't care enough. Just like soccer. We don't place enough emphasis on it as a society. If we did, we would excel. I have no reason to believe we wouldn't.

brianmcg123

hobbs1951

What nonsense, has a Yank ever scored a Century ? When you mentioned Europeans, it is a continent so what country are you referring to (can you name them) ?

John.

Caretaker

Now that's funny.

Dreww10

Another thought to consider: it's really no secret, and track and field has proven that African-Americans are incredible athletes, and yet, here in the U.S., cycling is perhaps the last sport African-Americans would consider given all the flashy money there is in basketball and football. Cycling is just never a consideration, well below even track and field and other lesser-paying sports. I often wonder if getting a bike and a coach in the hands of some of these gifted kids would elevate American cycling.

Caretaker

Strikes me what the U.S. needs to do is pump money (private or public) into competitive cycling at a local level. Focusing on racial groups isn't the way to go, JMO.

Maelochs

As i said,,, "If you build it, they will come" has been proven to only work in movies.

First off, an American needs to do something amazing on a bike while not on drugs. Then s/he has to get signed to some big promo campaigns .... products young adults (high school/college) want to buy, or at least ads they will watch.

Then the guy/girl gets to be a name, and the younger siblings hear it and say too because the guy or girl is cool and the preteen wants to seem cool.

Who can America promote? Tejay van Consistent Disappointment?

Preteens have to think cycling is cool, so they dream of being cyclists.Right now, there is no "cool" cyclist in the U.S. They are all scrawny and weak-looking, they wear weird clothes, and they don't make much money---and they don't get on TV. United Healthcare and Jellybelly sponsor teams---and even they cannot come up with U.S. stars to put in their commercials. They use models. And no one is watching anyway.

Kids need to Aspire to be bike stars before they will want to ride bikes competitively. And the role model is ..... Pee Wee Herman.

What happens if people set up the infrastructure and not enough people show up? Everybody loses. it is like if only eight people show up for rugby practice ... you cannot form a team (well, sevens, I guess ... ) If too few people show up for a bike team, then there is no team. Even if there are a dozen bikes and kits, if only three people show up, they will lose every race to a team with nine kids. And the school with three kids on the team is the school with no kids on the team next year. After three years there are only three teams left and only one of them wins all the time because wealthy parents pull strings to get their kids sent to the strongest school ... and the whole thing folds up because ... The Kids Don't Want it.

There are a lot of sports that can't gain traction. How many U.S. high schools have rugby teams? How is lacrosse (a sport invented by American Indians) in the UK?

Look at cricket in the U.S. You cannot, because there isn't any. And cricket is a sport that is insanely popular in a lot of countries ... All the Caribbean nations could form an American league with the U.S. But ... you have to pay a lot of money and stay up late to even see cricket on American TV. And cricket would be insanely cheaper to fund than cycling ... and since it is stick-and-ball, people would understand it easily. There are even home runs (well, boundaries ... ) But it just doesn't sell here.

I think the money would need to be spent in massive promotion as well as massive equipment buys ... and frankly there are a lot of things schools need more than cycling teams. in the U.S. a lot of schools need things like paper, pencils, and books. But ... if a U.S. cycling star Did hit it big, that could be a start to spreading cycling. Until there is at least one person that kids think is cool who also races a bike ... not much incentive to race a bike.

That means that it will be probably a decade before the U.S. could even Start to promote cycling at the lowest levels ... because i don't see any American riders who will be winning Olympic Gold or a few Grands Tours in the next several years.

Flip Flop Rider

maybe this was discussed earlier, don't know. How many Americans even watch the Tour? I do, but am the only person that does that I'm aware of.

there is no interest in cycling in America and this will not change. Cycling is in the fabric of European culture and probably always will be

the European contenders are stars in their countries. Peter Sagan, Chris Froome, Andre Greipal, Romain Bardet, etc. Most, no, not most, no one that I know even knows who these guys are

​​​​​​​the interest is simply not there, and never will be

Flip Flop Rider

oh, and agree with everything Maelochs has posted on the matter

Flip Flop Rider

and, Lance won 7 Tours and it did nothing to promote American cycling

Caretaker

I live in a European country, Ireland. I'm the only person who watches the TdF that I'm aware of. Cycling is a minority sport that gets minimal coverage in the media except when an Irish rider wins a stage. I meet Spanish, French, Italians who have no interest in cycling and hardly know who Contador, Bardet or Nibali are but know all about football (soccer). Chris Froome isn't a 'star' in Britain, most will only vaguely know he's a cyclist who's won the TdF and that there's been some controversy about doping which unfortunately is synonymous with cycling.