Horrible Crash Into Cycling Group Broward County
11-26-18, 07:41 PM
#52
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Not if you don't look. There is actually video of moments after the incident ... which is what i said.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/west...6959528393216/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/west...6959528393216/
"I was blinded by the sun" has been a positive defense against both arrest for criminal homicide as well as against prosecution for same and similar charges. It is also a statement that almost always serves to exonerate a driver in the eyes of the vast majority of the driving public.
Now if the driver was drunk or loaded....that's a different story. If sober - she hit people by accident who should not have been there, in the opinion of 100% of non-cyclists.
Last edited by JoeyBike; 11-26-18 at 07:51 PM.
11-26-18, 07:49 PM
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You don't need Facebook to see this video. Sun was not a factor in the cyclists being run down. Not enough glare in this video as the camera pans through a car windshield mere seconds after the impact to even cause the photo-sensor to adjust. It was a lie, a lie accepted by police and most of society. As motorists we accept death of others for our own convenience, this has been known for decades.
11-26-18, 08:34 PM
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The shadow lines run almost directly perpendicular to the direction of travel. Sun was NOT a factor.
11-26-18, 08:37 PM
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That still directly above tells the story. Looking directly down the roadway the sun is out of the picture. That is the view the driver had. Unless the driver was going out of her way to stare directly into the sun in between bouts of licking her window, the sun was NOT a factor.
11-26-18, 08:46 PM
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Many will agree the sun was a factor, the woman admitted distraction as well, and that was a dumb place to ride a bike. Even avid cyclists might agree to the last part. Cyclists won't be on a jury if it goes that far.
11-26-18, 08:58 PM
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The orb does not have to be dead center in your windshield to get a ton of glare. Glare is caused by the sun hitting a piece of glass at an angle. Glare IS sunlight. Or perhaps the driver looked briefly directly into the sun trying to read a road sign and still had a retinal lingering image. Or maybe she was tying her shoe and not looking up front at all and is lying about the sun. I believe the sun was hitting her windshield and COULD have easily affected her ability to see the right fog line, since the sun is over that side of the wall. It is STILL hitting the windshield of the smashed car in the still photo above. And the passenger side headlamp. And the hood where a hood ornament would be.
Many will agree the sun was a factor, the woman admitted distraction as well, and that was a dumb place to ride a bike. Even avid cyclists might agree to the last part. Cyclists won't be on a jury if it goes that far.
Many will agree the sun was a factor, the woman admitted distraction as well, and that was a dumb place to ride a bike. Even avid cyclists might agree to the last part. Cyclists won't be on a jury if it goes that far.
11-26-18, 10:44 PM
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This is how "normal" people drive in sub-par conditions: Fog suspected in 100-vehicle Texas wrecks that claim at least two lives. Source (2012)
A good idea is to NOT be cycling around "normal" motorists on/near busy highways even on the best of days. I know 13 people who likely won't argue and one who definitely wont. At least pick routes with low probability of high-speed road users getting blinded/distracted with little time to react. If making a living finds me on a bad stretch of road during a bike commute, and this is the best I can do, then so be it. Limiting the more dangerous routes on our leisure bike rides, to reduce exposure to "normal" high speed motorists, might be a prudent A&S technique.
Last edited by JoeyBike; 11-26-18 at 10:50 PM.
11-26-18, 10:58 PM
#59
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You don't need Facebook to see this video. Sun was not a factor in the cyclists being run down. Not enough glare in this video as the camera pans through a car windshield mere seconds after the impact to even cause the photo-sensor to adjust. It was a lie, a lie accepted by police and most of society. As motorists we accept death of others for our own convenience, this has been known for decades.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqnR-qFlLly/
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqnR-qFlLly/
What a nasty crash.
The potential speed differential between cyclists and motorists on that roadway is an accident waiting to happen.
11-26-18, 11:11 PM
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As for the sun being a factor ... people can argue all they want, but the still photo, taken from within a vehicle, shows Exactly what the driver saw ... and there is no glare. Again, people who need to keep arguing theory because they are not big enough to say, "oops, i got that one wrong," simply need to grow up.
Also, none of the other drivers on the road at the same time, heading in the same direction, hit the cyclists.
Could it be that the driver was distracted by something in the car and drifted over a few feet?
Well ... the driver has already admitted to the first part and the second part is attested to by the broken bikes and bodies .... I don;'t care if someone gets diagrams from a 'science" website .. . Science involves studying the actual information, not the theory, to see if the theory is supported by the facts. Looking up the theory and then denying facts which disprove it is the opposite of science.
it's funny ... if I point out even the slightest thing the cyclist did wrong, i get a chorus of "yeah, blame the victim" howls from the ignorant. In this case, when the cyclists made no error and the driver admitted to being distracted, i point this out and I get a chorus of "Sure, blame the killer."
Ain't life at BF grand.
Also, none of the other drivers on the road at the same time, heading in the same direction, hit the cyclists.
Could it be that the driver was distracted by something in the car and drifted over a few feet?
Well ... the driver has already admitted to the first part and the second part is attested to by the broken bikes and bodies .... I don;'t care if someone gets diagrams from a 'science" website .. . Science involves studying the actual information, not the theory, to see if the theory is supported by the facts. Looking up the theory and then denying facts which disprove it is the opposite of science.
it's funny ... if I point out even the slightest thing the cyclist did wrong, i get a chorus of "yeah, blame the victim" howls from the ignorant. In this case, when the cyclists made no error and the driver admitted to being distracted, i point this out and I get a chorus of "Sure, blame the killer."
Ain't life at BF grand.
11-26-18, 11:49 PM
#61
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She drove her car in such a manner she collided with stuff. She was negligent in the responsibilities of her license. Plain & simple. That somebody died due to her actions means she is a murderer.
...but she is a driver. Though the proper charges are probably negligent homicide, I have my doubts she'll even be charged at all.
...but she is a driver. Though the proper charges are probably negligent homicide, I have my doubts she'll even be charged at all.
But murder is like 'free speech'. People just don't understand where either fit in.
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11-27-18, 08:26 AM
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Murder is an act with intent. It would have to be proven that she set out to kill the cyclists. Manslaughter and vehicular assault are two of the charges she could face, reckless or negligent driving is another.
But murder is like 'free speech'. People just don't understand where either fit in.
But murder is like 'free speech'. People just don't understand where either fit in.
https://www.floridabar.org/news/tfb-...256ADB005D6187
11-27-18, 09:39 AM
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As for the sun being a factor ... people can argue all they want, but the still photo, taken from within a vehicle, shows Exactly what the driver saw ... and there is no glare. Again, people who need to keep arguing theory because they are not big enough to say, "oops, i got that one wrong," simply need to grow up.
When the driver admits she was lying, I will happily admit I was wrong. Maybe she was speeding - crash forensics will figure that out. She admitted distraction. So that is clear. Motorists are distracted all the time. Nothing new there. Why would she lie about the sun if she admitted distraction? On a sunny day. On a roadway that is KNOWN for blinding motorists.
11-27-18, 10:19 AM
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I'll admit my bias right here & now. You got me with the "intent" bit. Nevertheless, she broke the law egrigiously, breaking laws is a crime, therefore she was criminally negligent. Negligent homicide is probably the correct charge. No, I'm no lawyer or anything, but I really don't see a difference between this and involuntary manslaughter. Maybe it's a state legal definition thing. But in my mind failure to plan is planning to fail. She murdered through ignorance, disregard, entitlment.
Murder is an act with intent. It would have to be proven that she set out to kill the cyclists. Manslaughter and vehicular assault are two of the charges she could face, reckless or negligent driving is another.
But murder is like 'free speech'. People just don't understand where either fit in.
But murder is like 'free speech'. People just don't understand where either fit in.
11-27-18, 10:45 AM
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I'll admit my bias right here & now. You got me with the "intent" bit. Nevertheless, she broke the law egrigiously, breaking laws is a crime, therefore she was criminally negligent. Negligent homicide is probably the correct charge. No, I'm no lawyer or anything, but I really don't see a difference between this and involuntary manslaughter. Maybe it's a state legal definition thing. But in my mind failure to plan is planning to fail. She murdered through ignorance, disregard, entitlment.
One glaring take-away from this tragedy for me is NEVER ADMIT ANYTHING to the investigating cops. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law.
11-27-18, 11:22 AM
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I hold the driver blameless. The cyclists knew the risks .. . there simply weren't fast enough to keep up with auto traffic and were therefore necessarily being impediments.
Roads are for cars, we all know that.
Also, in a situation where a driver cannot see, the driver cannot just slow down, look away from the glare, and find landmarks to make sure s/he remains in the lane of travel. Drivers are busy enough.
One thing we know, drivers never lie. if a driver says the entire train of cyclists rode deliberately in front of her SUV, then they did.
Besides, the cyclists were all wearing skin-tight shorts. they were obviously asking for it.
And that is all I have to say about certain posters here.
Look, up in the sky!!!
Oh, never mind, it was just all the relevant points going by, but you missed them.
Roads are for cars, we all know that.
Also, in a situation where a driver cannot see, the driver cannot just slow down, look away from the glare, and find landmarks to make sure s/he remains in the lane of travel. Drivers are busy enough.
One thing we know, drivers never lie. if a driver says the entire train of cyclists rode deliberately in front of her SUV, then they did.
Besides, the cyclists were all wearing skin-tight shorts. they were obviously asking for it.
And that is all I have to say about certain posters here.
Look, up in the sky!!!
Oh, never mind, it was just all the relevant points going by, but you missed them.
11-27-18, 11:37 AM
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Maybe the driver got horrified "Target Fixation" on all those sausage-cased arses.
"You have probably seen this all-too-familiar scenario play out during a race or even experienced it yourself: A rider crashes or rides off the track, and the following rider—seemingly mesmerized by the drama unfolding in front—follows the errant rider right off the track. The phenomenon is commonly referred to as target fixation and can be a huge problem for riders on the street just as much as on the racetrack."
I have not heard this theory expressed yet. It's possible she was just too embarrassed to admit to "arse fixation".
Last edited by JoeyBike; 11-27-18 at 11:44 AM.
11-27-18, 12:04 PM
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It's already been established that the time of the accident and the analema of the sun preclude the sun having been in her eyes - or causing windshield glare - as the cause of the accident. She hit those cyclists because she was distracted by something in the passenger compartment - most likely an item in the glovebox. Reaching over to the right far enough to access the glovebox, even in a small car, often leads to swerving to the right. Which is exactly what happened here.
As someone who has lived in New Orleans for a very long time you must know that police press conferences are equal parts politicking and placating and almost never about disseminating pertinent facts.
"The sun was in her eyes" - Public reaction: oh what a shame, such a terrible accident.
"She was drunk" - Public reaction: death penalty, please.
Miami is closer to 25 degrees so the sun would have been even more southeast. The police officer may have been correct that the sun is extremely bright and blinding in that area at that time of day - during another time of the year when it was closer to rising due E and not around ~33 degrees SE of due E. On the date the accident took place the sun would not have been rising due E and would not have been able to provide enough glare to be an issue. This was 100% a distraction incident on a clear, long, flat, straight road with good sight-lines. Criminal negligence for sure, whether society decides to hold the driver accountable for that remains to be seen.
As someone who has lived in New Orleans for a very long time you must know that police press conferences are equal parts politicking and placating and almost never about disseminating pertinent facts.
"The sun was in her eyes" - Public reaction: oh what a shame, such a terrible accident.
"She was drunk" - Public reaction: death penalty, please.
Miami is closer to 25 degrees so the sun would have been even more southeast. The police officer may have been correct that the sun is extremely bright and blinding in that area at that time of day - during another time of the year when it was closer to rising due E and not around ~33 degrees SE of due E. On the date the accident took place the sun would not have been rising due E and would not have been able to provide enough glare to be an issue. This was 100% a distraction incident on a clear, long, flat, straight road with good sight-lines. Criminal negligence for sure, whether society decides to hold the driver accountable for that remains to be seen.
11-27-18, 01:14 PM
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It's already been established that the time of the accident and the analema of the sun preclude the sun having been in her eyes - or causing windshield glare - as the cause of the accident. She hit those cyclists because she was distracted by something in the passenger compartment - most likely an item in the glovebox. Reaching over to the right far enough to access the glovebox, even in a small car, often leads to swerving to the right. Which is exactly what happened here.
As someone who has lived in New Orleans for a very long time you must know that police press conferences are equal parts politicking and placating and almost never about disseminating pertinent facts.
"The sun was in her eyes" - Public reaction: oh what a shame, such a terrible accident.
"She was drunk" - Public reaction: death penalty, please.
Miami is closer to 25 degrees so the sun would have been even more southeast. The police officer may have been correct that the sun is extremely bright and blinding in that area at that time of day - during another time of the year when it was closer to rising due E and not around ~33 degrees SE of due E. On the date the accident took place the sun would not have been rising due E and would not have been able to provide enough glare to be an issue. This was 100% a distraction incident on a clear, long, flat, straight road with good sight-lines. Criminal negligence for sure, whether society decides to hold the driver accountable for that remains to be seen.
As someone who has lived in New Orleans for a very long time you must know that police press conferences are equal parts politicking and placating and almost never about disseminating pertinent facts.
"The sun was in her eyes" - Public reaction: oh what a shame, such a terrible accident.
"She was drunk" - Public reaction: death penalty, please.
Miami is closer to 25 degrees so the sun would have been even more southeast. The police officer may have been correct that the sun is extremely bright and blinding in that area at that time of day - during another time of the year when it was closer to rising due E and not around ~33 degrees SE of due E. On the date the accident took place the sun would not have been rising due E and would not have been able to provide enough glare to be an issue. This was 100% a distraction incident on a clear, long, flat, straight road with good sight-lines. Criminal negligence for sure, whether society decides to hold the driver accountable for that remains to be seen.
11-27-18, 01:52 PM
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Sadly, a second cyclist, Carlos Rodriguez, has died.
I don't want this to become a shouting match, but the Broward cycling group involved in the crash was riding double-file. Because of distracted, visually-impaired, drunk or belligerent drivers, I would like to urge cyclists, solo or otherwise, to ride single-file, and as far to the right as you can get. I think it also would have helped this group (and all groups) to adopt and enforce a strict policy of keeping at least seven feet between bicycles during the ride.
The satellite image of the crash site on State Road 84 shows a shoulder about 14" wide. Just enough for one bicycle. When disaster or safety are decided in a matter of 2 to 3 inches, I think we all want to be to the side of, instead of in front of, any errant or violent driver. If the car had sideswiped this group, then perhaps some riders would have been thrown into the grass.
At the risk of sounding controversial, I feel it necessary to recommend that all of us (including myself) think more defensively.
I don't want this to become a shouting match, but the Broward cycling group involved in the crash was riding double-file. Because of distracted, visually-impaired, drunk or belligerent drivers, I would like to urge cyclists, solo or otherwise, to ride single-file, and as far to the right as you can get. I think it also would have helped this group (and all groups) to adopt and enforce a strict policy of keeping at least seven feet between bicycles during the ride.
The satellite image of the crash site on State Road 84 shows a shoulder about 14" wide. Just enough for one bicycle. When disaster or safety are decided in a matter of 2 to 3 inches, I think we all want to be to the side of, instead of in front of, any errant or violent driver. If the car had sideswiped this group, then perhaps some riders would have been thrown into the grass.
At the risk of sounding controversial, I feel it necessary to recommend that all of us (including myself) think more defensively.
11-27-18, 02:05 PM
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Here is a map of the official spot of the accident. Car was traveling ESE at the time according to this. See the red pin. Source.
Here is a video from the now deceased 2nd cyclist on his Facebook page which illustrates this group is used to riding at least two abreast across most of the travel lane. You can see this video at the Source link above as well. Plenty of science and charts on this thread to verify those sun/season/direction facts.
Here is a video from the now deceased 2nd cyclist on his Facebook page which illustrates this group is used to riding at least two abreast across most of the travel lane. You can see this video at the Source link above as well. Plenty of science and charts on this thread to verify those sun/season/direction facts.
His Facebook Page
" data-width="500" data-show-text="true" data-lazy="true">
His Facebook Page " class="fb-xfbml-parse-ignore">Facebook Post
Accident happened around 8:30 a.m. according to the linked news report, which would put the sun in everyone's face, if the map location is correct.
If this holds true, the driver didn't have to drift even one inch to run over the group dead center in the roadway.
There appears to be a bike lane along Highway 84 at Flamingo Road and for quite a ways beyond. I wonder if all the cyclists were within that lane? Not an excuse for running them over, but would make a difference to a jury if it came to that. Nobody likes cyclists hogging a travel lane when there is a bike lane right there, installed with tax money, to keep them "safe". (Map)
Last edited by JoeyBike; 11-27-18 at 02:36 PM.
11-27-18, 02:15 PM
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Sadly, a second cyclist, Carlos Rodriguez, has died.
I don't want this to become a shouting match, but the Broward cycling group involved in the crash was riding double-file. Because of distracted, visually-impaired, drunk or belligerent drivers, I would like to urge cyclists, solo or otherwise, to ride single-file, and as far to the right as you can get. I think it also would have helped this group (and all groups) to adopt and enforce a strict policy of keeping at least seven feet between bicycles during the ride.
The satellite image of the crash site on State Road 84 shows a shoulder about 14" wide. Just enough for one bicycle. When disaster or safety are decided in a matter of 2 to 3 inches, I think we all want to be to the side of, instead of in front of, any errant or violent driver. If the car had sideswiped this group, then perhaps some riders would have been thrown into the grass.
At the risk of sounding controversial, I feel it necessary to recommend that all of us (including myself) think more defensively.
I don't want this to become a shouting match, but the Broward cycling group involved in the crash was riding double-file. Because of distracted, visually-impaired, drunk or belligerent drivers, I would like to urge cyclists, solo or otherwise, to ride single-file, and as far to the right as you can get. I think it also would have helped this group (and all groups) to adopt and enforce a strict policy of keeping at least seven feet between bicycles during the ride.
The satellite image of the crash site on State Road 84 shows a shoulder about 14" wide. Just enough for one bicycle. When disaster or safety are decided in a matter of 2 to 3 inches, I think we all want to be to the side of, instead of in front of, any errant or violent driver. If the car had sideswiped this group, then perhaps some riders would have been thrown into the grass.
At the risk of sounding controversial, I feel it necessary to recommend that all of us (including myself) think more defensively.
Nothing you posted is a good idea and is based on talking points anti-cycling advocates used to restrict access to the roadways. Riding two abreast is almost always safer for cyclists and more convenient for cars as it shortens the passing distance by half. 7 feet between bicycles? Are you nuts?
Riding "as far to the right as you can get" encourages dangerous passes by motorists who are not aware how wide their vehicle actually is and how much speed differential exists. Did you see the car? This was no incident of "2 to 3 inches" it was a full-speed, no brakes center frontal impact due to the driver not paying attention to the road for several seconds at high speeds.
There is no "thinking defensively" with distracted driving. Distracted drivers routinely hit police cars full of flashing lights, pedestrians on the sidewalk, cyclists in well marked bike lanes, people waiting at bus stops and many other places cars do not belong. Wearing a mirror and having extremely good reflexes is probably the only on-bike thing a cyclist can do to be safer. But really the lateral ability and timing required to notice and dodge a car coming from behind at 35+ miles an hour creates a very small window. Otherwise it's lobbying for enforcement of distracted driving laws, harsher penalties for negligence during motor vehicle operation and getting more people out riding on the road so that automobile users expect cyclists and are forced to share the roadway.
There is no good takeaway from this incident for cyclists. One day you may get run down by a distracted driver and the vast majority of society, including fellow cyclists, will not be on your side.
11-27-18, 02:32 PM
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Here is a map of the official spot of the accident. Car was traveling ESE at the time according to this. See the red pin. Source.
A Honda Fit struck the riders about 8:30 a.m. in the eastbound lanes of State Road 84, east of Southwest 148th Avenue.
The link you posted has the map attached at the bottom but is incorrect and an address or location is not listed in the article.
This is the correct location as evidenced by the on-scene video and Google street view. Please stop spreading disinformation in an attempt to "prove" your point. Once again, this is the correct location of the collision:
11-27-18, 02:38 PM
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The Google Streetview screenshot you posted is obviously not the area of the collision and is too far east. Did you watch the linked instagram video from Bikelaw? Where is the retaining wall in your shot? Why is the interstate elevated when on-scene video shows it near-grade?
You need to let this go, you're obviously mistaken.
You need to let this go, you're obviously mistaken.
11-27-18, 02:47 PM
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This is also from the original article:
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/b...125-story.html
15000 FL84 is East of SW 136th Ave and as noted above could not be the correct location of the collision.
This map also shows how the sun was in her eyes as she headed SE before SW 148th avenue and then the sun was no longer in her eyes as FL-84 veered slightly E/NE and then she was distracted by something in her glovebox, took her eyes off the road for a few seconds at 45-60 miles per hour and killed two people right before Poinciana road.
Eastbound State Road 84 was closed for hours from Weston Road all the way east to Southwest 136th Avenue so police could investigate the accident.
15000 FL84 is East of SW 136th Ave and as noted above could not be the correct location of the collision.
This map also shows how the sun was in her eyes as she headed SE before SW 148th avenue and then the sun was no longer in her eyes as FL-84 veered slightly E/NE and then she was distracted by something in her glovebox, took her eyes off the road for a few seconds at 45-60 miles per hour and killed two people right before Poinciana road.
Last edited by Spoonrobot; 11-27-18 at 02:53 PM.