training without power meter and using only heart rate and perceived effort?
#1
commu*ist spy
Thread Starter
training without power meter and using only heart rate and perceived effort?
i'm trying to determine the situations where i find a power meter useful for my training, and so far, I've got
So I think the biggest one here is the first one, maintaining the same power through a set of shorter intervals, which can be hard, because PE increases with fatigue. Other than that, I don't see any other training scenarios that can't be replicated with an heart rate monitor. For races, I only really pay attention to the average lap power, to help me gauge how many matches I have left in me.
I'm not sure this is enough reason to justify owning a power meter. But many people have said that a power meter is the best investment you can make to get faster. So what am I missing?
PS. obviously, one's training methods factor into this a lot. I would consider my current training methodology to be categorized into endurance/tempo rides (longer ones), threshold rides (shorter ones, when I don't have time to do longer rides), and interval rides (shorter rides, 1-2 times/week). In other words, I go out the door with some idea of the type of ride I'm doing, but I don't plan it down to the tee like some do, and I don't put my food on a scale to measure my calories. who knows, that may change if I decide to shoot for cat 2 or beyond. anyway, in what ways is your training benefited from a power meter. Is your list similar to mine? or do you get more use out of them?
- 30"-5' intervals, where immediate feedback is useful
- fitness evaluation for training and races
- keeping myself in a certain zone for endurance, tempo, and threshold, which I can kind of do already with my heart rate
So I think the biggest one here is the first one, maintaining the same power through a set of shorter intervals, which can be hard, because PE increases with fatigue. Other than that, I don't see any other training scenarios that can't be replicated with an heart rate monitor. For races, I only really pay attention to the average lap power, to help me gauge how many matches I have left in me.
I'm not sure this is enough reason to justify owning a power meter. But many people have said that a power meter is the best investment you can make to get faster. So what am I missing?
PS. obviously, one's training methods factor into this a lot. I would consider my current training methodology to be categorized into endurance/tempo rides (longer ones), threshold rides (shorter ones, when I don't have time to do longer rides), and interval rides (shorter rides, 1-2 times/week). In other words, I go out the door with some idea of the type of ride I'm doing, but I don't plan it down to the tee like some do, and I don't put my food on a scale to measure my calories. who knows, that may change if I decide to shoot for cat 2 or beyond. anyway, in what ways is your training benefited from a power meter. Is your list similar to mine? or do you get more use out of them?
Last edited by spectastic; 06-20-16 at 09:35 PM.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 789
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 71 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
i'm trying to determine the situations where i find a power meter useful for my training, and so far, I've got
So I think the biggest one here is the first one, maintaining the same power through a set of shorter intervals, which can be hard, because PE increases with fatigue. Other than that, I don't see any other training scenarios that can't be replicated with an heart rate monitor. For races, I only really pay attention to the average lap power, to help me gauge how many matches I have left in me.
I'm not sure this is enough reason to justify owning a power meter. But many people have said that a power meter is the best investment you can make to get faster. So what am I missing?
- 30"-5' intervals, where immediate feedback is useful
- fitness evaluation for training and races
- keeping myself in a certain zone for endurance, tempo, and threshold, which I can kind of do already with my heart rate
So I think the biggest one here is the first one, maintaining the same power through a set of shorter intervals, which can be hard, because PE increases with fatigue. Other than that, I don't see any other training scenarios that can't be replicated with an heart rate monitor. For races, I only really pay attention to the average lap power, to help me gauge how many matches I have left in me.
I'm not sure this is enough reason to justify owning a power meter. But many people have said that a power meter is the best investment you can make to get faster. So what am I missing?
a) objective assessment of training load (eg long term gradual ramp up, prevention of over training, etc)
b) measurement of progress over months and years, ie 1' power...how does it compare to a month ago, or a year ago at same time
c) post-mortem of races: where was I at my limit; where was the critical moment in the race, and what do I need to work on to be more prepared for those critical moments. Also, how good was I at sheltering up to the critical moment(s)?
d) specification of workouts by coach, and knowing that I am doing what he asked
e) confidence, eg the normalized power for a crit was x, and I know that I do x in workouts for the same duration routinely, so just relax, everything will be fine..
#3
Nonsense
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vagabond
Posts: 13,918
Bikes: Affirmative
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked 541 Times
in
237 Posts
i'm trying to determine the situations where i find a power meter useful for my training, and so far, I've got
So I think the biggest one here is the first one, maintaining the same power through a set of shorter intervals, which can be hard, because PE increases with fatigue. Other than that, I don't see any other training scenarios that can't be replicated with an heart rate monitor. For races, I only really pay attention to the average lap power, to help me gauge how many matches I have left in me.
I'm not sure this is enough reason to justify owning a power meter. But many people have said that a power meter is the best investment you can make to get faster. So what am I missing?
- 30"-5' intervals, where immediate feedback is useful
- fitness evaluation for training and races
- keeping myself in a certain zone for endurance, tempo, and threshold, which I can kind of do already with my heart rate
So I think the biggest one here is the first one, maintaining the same power through a set of shorter intervals, which can be hard, because PE increases with fatigue. Other than that, I don't see any other training scenarios that can't be replicated with an heart rate monitor. For races, I only really pay attention to the average lap power, to help me gauge how many matches I have left in me.
I'm not sure this is enough reason to justify owning a power meter. But many people have said that a power meter is the best investment you can make to get faster. So what am I missing?
#4
Senior Member
As someone who trained via HR and PE for 8.5 years before going power the past ~1.5...intervals with a power meter are entirely different than intervals via heart rate and PE. Heart rate and PE lie to you. Power is power. It's the difference between going to the junk yard and lifting monster truck tires, and going to a gym and knowing the exact weight you're lifting. It's much easier to keep training logs with power because of this, and track progress. Your mystical training hill doesn't need a star next to the times you set on extra windy days. If you've done the gym stuff for long enough you can do the monster truck tire thing pretty well, but without the gym experience it's hard to know you're doing it right. If you can afford a power meter I would not hesitate to buy one.
I don't use my PM much in training but I did one set of intervals (3+3 weeks, 2 days per week) at the beginning of 2015 (first actual intervals that I did for 30-odd years). I had some great results that year. FTP measured 218w realistically at my best, which was just after the intervals in April or so.
Power numbers are very telling with races. I'll finish a race and eagerly go download my massive sprint numbers. Then I see that my expected 1400w jump was actually 1100w. Or that I jumped at 1200w but sustained 1100w for another 18s, which is super significant for me. Etc etc etc.
I also look at how many times I hit, say, 800w. Or 600w. In a race it's pretty telling - I may think "oh, man, I was suffering" then I see I broke 800w 10 times or something ridiculous (for me that's a big effort for sitting on a wheel).
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
#5
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
6 Posts
Agreed. PM is what's really hitting the rear wheel. I've had awful PE days where I was killing it and awful PE days where I was, in fact, awful. HR has a lot of variability due to internal and external factors even when all other things are equal. And it tells you where you were, not where you are. HR might have a 20% disconnect to actual power.
Integrating all three is the path to success.
Integrating all three is the path to success.
#6
**** that
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Posts: 15,402
Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times
in
30 Posts
for me the most valuable aspects are:
a) objective assessment of training load (eg long term gradual ramp up, prevention of over training, etc)
b) measurement of progress over months and years, ie 1' power...how does it compare to a month ago, or a year ago at same time
c) post-mortem of races: where was I at my limit; where was the critical moment in the race, and what do I need to work on to be more prepared for those critical moments. Also, how good was I at sheltering up to the critical moment(s)?
d) specification of workouts by coach, and knowing that I am doing what he asked
e) confidence, eg the normalized power for a crit was x, and I know that I do x in workouts for the same duration routinely, so just relax, everything will be fine..
a) objective assessment of training load (eg long term gradual ramp up, prevention of over training, etc)
b) measurement of progress over months and years, ie 1' power...how does it compare to a month ago, or a year ago at same time
c) post-mortem of races: where was I at my limit; where was the critical moment in the race, and what do I need to work on to be more prepared for those critical moments. Also, how good was I at sheltering up to the critical moment(s)?
d) specification of workouts by coach, and knowing that I am doing what he asked
e) confidence, eg the normalized power for a crit was x, and I know that I do x in workouts for the same duration routinely, so just relax, everything will be fine..
except for d) & e), for me.
#7
Ride On!
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 971
Bikes: Allez DSW SL Sprint | Fuji Cross
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
I like a power meter for the indoor trainer and that's about it.
When I'm in a group ride my power doesn't matter, I'm at the group's pace, which means I'm always pushing or always hitting my brakes.
I think a power meter would be great for a long sustained climb.
Other than that, I think RPE is the best...and it correlates *somewhat* with heart rate, but not entirely. It was 92 degrees out yesterday ("Real Feel 99") and my heart rate was at least 10 beats higher than what I would expect.
Heart rate is good for recovery rides to make sure you're not pushing into the higher zones though, but again you can do that with RPE as well.
Heart rate is nice for a suffer score imo, but as a training tool, it just seems pretty variable.
When I'm in a group ride my power doesn't matter, I'm at the group's pace, which means I'm always pushing or always hitting my brakes.
I think a power meter would be great for a long sustained climb.
Other than that, I think RPE is the best...and it correlates *somewhat* with heart rate, but not entirely. It was 92 degrees out yesterday ("Real Feel 99") and my heart rate was at least 10 beats higher than what I would expect.
Heart rate is good for recovery rides to make sure you're not pushing into the higher zones though, but again you can do that with RPE as well.
Heart rate is nice for a suffer score imo, but as a training tool, it just seems pretty variable.
#8
OMC
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: South Louisiana
Posts: 6,960
Bikes: Specialized Allez Sprint, Look 585, Specialized Allez Comp Race
Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 461 Post(s)
Liked 116 Times
in
49 Posts
Heart rate and PE lie to you. Power is power.
HR has a lot of variability due to internal and external factors even when all other things are equal.
__________________
Regards,
Chuck
Demain, on roule!
Regards,
Chuck
Demain, on roule!
#10
commu*ist spy
Thread Starter
i see. thanks for the feedback. my situation is that I'm contemplating whether my stages is worth keeping. I was thinking about selling it and just going pm-free, or get a pioneer. you guys convinced me that i will feel naked without a pm, so I'll keep using power
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
We went back and forth for pages on these ideas in the PM thread (about 1 year ago), but there is an assumption with the OP #1 that that is what you want to do. If you want to train to the same power each time a PM is the best way to do it.
A gym analogy I use is selecting the weight and reps you will do in a period of time, or selecting a familiar weight and then lifting to fatigue. I know both are done. Saying a PM is required is like saying you need to know the mass of the weights and reps you will do in a 1 min time frame to get max strength gain. I'm not convinced that is the best way to get race fit, although if training alone it is a great tool. I'm finding more that do not try to train to the same or a set resistance each time and train more to how they feel/relative fatigue.
A PM only measures power to where it is measured. It does not measure efficiency / total effort. Two riders of the same weight, and power can go very different speeds. A PM can be a good tool to try to go faster with the same power. I'm very fast for my oversize and low power. That means I'm efficient, it does not mean I could beat anyone. When training/traveling and the environment changes a lot - weather/altitude power should change too and unless there is lots of experience with that environment it is hard to select a number to train to.
At the LBS, owner and dad of a pro racer, blames PMs for making pro racing so boring (that and no PEDs). Says that the racers are looking at PMs and determining what they can and cannot do vs the old days of going for it and making it - or not. It made the racing more fun to watch.
A gym analogy I use is selecting the weight and reps you will do in a period of time, or selecting a familiar weight and then lifting to fatigue. I know both are done. Saying a PM is required is like saying you need to know the mass of the weights and reps you will do in a 1 min time frame to get max strength gain. I'm not convinced that is the best way to get race fit, although if training alone it is a great tool. I'm finding more that do not try to train to the same or a set resistance each time and train more to how they feel/relative fatigue.
A PM only measures power to where it is measured. It does not measure efficiency / total effort. Two riders of the same weight, and power can go very different speeds. A PM can be a good tool to try to go faster with the same power. I'm very fast for my oversize and low power. That means I'm efficient, it does not mean I could beat anyone. When training/traveling and the environment changes a lot - weather/altitude power should change too and unless there is lots of experience with that environment it is hard to select a number to train to.
At the LBS, owner and dad of a pro racer, blames PMs for making pro racing so boring (that and no PEDs). Says that the racers are looking at PMs and determining what they can and cannot do vs the old days of going for it and making it - or not. It made the racing more fun to watch.
#12
**** that
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Posts: 15,402
Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1099 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times
in
30 Posts
It was nice, for a while.
But even nicer to go back to data-overload mode!
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto , Ontario , Canada
Posts: 542
Bikes: Colnago EP with Campy chorus
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Doge got the right idea . PM makes everyone function like a robot on a bike these days . I stop watching the grand tour when they introduced radio and PM .
#14
out walking the earth
#15
Resident Alien
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Posts: 13,089
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 349 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times
in
6 Posts
People used to complain the Anquetil was boring. Go Goggle "dramatic Indurain finishes" and see what you come up with.
There's still plenty of balls to the wall racing efforts out there. Contador, Sagan, Cancellera, Boonen, Landis (come on, given the top 20 were all on EPO was there a better ride in a recent tour? And he HAD a power meter on the bike).
There were plenty of boring "old timey" races and Grand Tours before radios BTW. We just forget about them because THEY WERE BORING.
3 of the closest TDF finishes in history came during the PM era. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Fausto Coppi won by 28 minutes in 1952. Give me some more of that!
Right?
If you want to pick a bone pick it with modern tactics and drugs where teams sit on the front riding 31 MPH for 3 weeks. Even with that the racing isn't always robotic, no matter how hard Sky tries to make it as such.
Saying powermeters make racing boring is like saying TV causes Ebola.
Last edited by Racer Ex; 06-21-16 at 05:26 PM.
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
"A PM only measures power to where it is measured. It does not measure efficiency / total effort. "
A PM in the pedals you are measuring the power/push on the pedals. If the rider is pushing in against and flexing cranks they can get credit for power that is basically being lost to heat and flex. A PM in the hub is measuring closer to what the tire to ground experiences. But there is energy being spent that is not going into power, or that the power meter is measuring.
The PM just measures power at the meter, not necessarily that making the rider go forward. There are no end of skate boarders around here propelling themselves with both feet on the board in a way a PM would likely say they are doing 0 Watts. Cyclist do that too. The PM does not measure it.
Ideally we'd have VO2 (real, not calculated)/power on the bike to get some efficiency number.
#18
commu*ist spy
Thread Starter
so should I abandon my pm and use that money to buy a stash of EPO from mexico?
but I do understand the argument of having less data to look at might be a little better for morale, and make training a little more fun, which is important for people who already have a job.
but I do understand the argument of having less data to look at might be a little better for morale, and make training a little more fun, which is important for people who already have a job.
#19
Senior Member
This year's Paris-Roubaix was very entertaining. Attack after attack towards the end, no 'robotic' riding for sure. Same can be said for Strade Bianche and others. Even the Giro was quite good.
#20
out walking the earth
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,570
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1851 Post(s)
Liked 679 Times
in
430 Posts
This.
Having a PM allows me to tailor my training to maximize my time. Given work and life demands, I know how many hours a day I can put in on the bike, and the PM lets me get the most out of those hours.
For example, Hunter Allen has been writing a lot lately about the idea of base riding in the fall and winter is a waste of time and effort by most amateur racers. His argument is that people with jobs and a life outside of cycling do not have enough hours in the week to truly spend enough time on the bike to build a base. Therefore, he has proposed doing a lot more sweet spot intervals to get a similar effect in a shorter time period.
Having a PM allows me to tailor my training to maximize my time. Given work and life demands, I know how many hours a day I can put in on the bike, and the PM lets me get the most out of those hours.
For example, Hunter Allen has been writing a lot lately about the idea of base riding in the fall and winter is a waste of time and effort by most amateur racers. His argument is that people with jobs and a life outside of cycling do not have enough hours in the week to truly spend enough time on the bike to build a base. Therefore, he has proposed doing a lot more sweet spot intervals to get a similar effect in a shorter time period.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,475
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3375 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
But if racing is far from Robotic that should be a consideration on training.
I'm not a trainer, I don't know if for running a mile (steady pace) it is best to do steady pace training or intervals.
Or for soccer, rugby, cycling (except TT) what it is better to do.
It seems to me TT and RR/Crit training should be different.
#23
Nonsense
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vagabond
Posts: 13,918
Bikes: Affirmative
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 880 Post(s)
Liked 541 Times
in
237 Posts
This is silly. If you want to get stronger it is much easier when you know what your markers are. Doing structured intervals some days and unstructured work other days are not mutually exclusive things. Having power even helps keep track of how you respond to the unstructured work. You don't even have to look at the thing when you're racing! It doesn't mean having the data isn't valuable for targeting your weaknesses.
#24
Has a magic bike
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,590
Bikes: 2018 Scott Spark, 2015 Fuji Norcom Straight, 2014 BMC GF01, 2013 Trek Madone
Mentioned: 699 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4456 Post(s)
Liked 425 Times
in
157 Posts
I can see that is not so well written.
"A PM only measures power to where it is measured. It does not measure efficiency / total effort. "
A PM in the pedals you are measuring the power/push on the pedals. If the rider is pushing in against and flexing cranks they can get credit for power that is basically being lost to heat and flex. A PM in the hub is measuring closer to what the tire to ground experiences. But there is energy being spent that is not going into power, or that the power meter is measuring.
The PM just measures power at the meter, not necessarily that making the rider go forward. There are no end of skate boarders around here propelling themselves with both feet on the board in a way a PM would likely say they are doing 0 Watts. Cyclist do that too. The PM does not measure it.
Ideally we'd have VO2 (real, not calculated)/power on the bike to get some efficiency number.
"A PM only measures power to where it is measured. It does not measure efficiency / total effort. "
A PM in the pedals you are measuring the power/push on the pedals. If the rider is pushing in against and flexing cranks they can get credit for power that is basically being lost to heat and flex. A PM in the hub is measuring closer to what the tire to ground experiences. But there is energy being spent that is not going into power, or that the power meter is measuring.
The PM just measures power at the meter, not necessarily that making the rider go forward. There are no end of skate boarders around here propelling themselves with both feet on the board in a way a PM would likely say they are doing 0 Watts. Cyclist do that too. The PM does not measure it.
Ideally we'd have VO2 (real, not calculated)/power on the bike to get some efficiency number.
Increasing your power is the hardest way to get faster, you have to train really hard to do that. Riding more efficiently is for sure a skill that is supported by having a power meter, the meter really helps you to understand why results vary with what seems like the same effort.
#25
out walking the earth
I'd basically ignore anything Doge thinks on this subject. He's talking about a kid who a) is a kid, and as such will respond to most any sort of training and b) is presumably a talented kid, who is apt to respond to most anything. And, being a kid he has more time than the typical USAC racer (i.e. older). If you have time you can make up for many short falls in training simply in volume (ride lots). But once you get to having a life efficiency will often dictate your level of success in maintaining a balance in life and getting cycling results. I recently saw a post on FB by a guy who just had a baby and he was lamenting his inability to maintain 10 hour weeks. For god's sakes, 10 hours? You don't need 10 hours a week for the kind of racing this guy is doing. 8 hours, hit the numbers, walk the baby around while your wife curses your existence. Why that translates into boring racing is beyond me...if you're good enough to control a race to the extent you can make it boring maybe it's time to quit your day job and go pro?